Fall 2019 Applicants

[Lynnnn]

14 hours ago, Harper said:

I see that some rejections from Penn have gone out to PhD applicants, but have any MA applicants heard anything? I've heard mostly negative things about their MA program, but I'd still like to know if I've been accepted/rejected.

No I haven't heard back from Penn yet (I applied for MA). Out of curiosity, what negative things you heard about their MA program? 

[Harper]

2 hours ago, Lynnnn said:

No I haven't heard back from Penn yet (I applied for MA). Out of curiosity, what negative things you heard about their MA program? 

I've heard that, along with the IFA and Columbia, it's basically a cash-cow for their PhD program. They don't offer any funding for MA students, so unless you're independently wealthy you'd be going into a ton of debt considering the cost of tuition and the cost of living in Philly. I'm choosing between partially funded and fully funded MAs right now and the number one piece of advice I've gotten is that going into debt for a humanities degree isn't worth it. I've also been told that they don't mentor their MA students as well as their PhD students, so you may not get the best training. This is just what I've personally heard, so if anyone else has a different opinion feel free to chime in.

[Bijutsu]

39 minutes ago, Harper said:

I've heard that, along with the IFA and Columbia, it's basically a cash-cow for their PhD program. They don't offer any funding for MA students, so unless you're independently wealthy you'd be going into a ton of debt considering the cost of tuition and the cost of living in Philly. I'm choosing between partially funded and fully funded MAs right now and the number one piece of advice I've gotten is that going into debt for a humanities degree isn't worth it. I've also been told that they don't mentor their MA students as well as their PhD students, so you may not get the best training. This is just what I've personally heard, so if anyone else has a different opinion feel free to chime. 

I know IFA has a new fellowship for incoming MA students beginning this year.  

[wren]

Hi all, I’ve received offers from both the Courtauld and Tufts and having trouble deciding between the two. My biggest issue is that my two undergrad professors who wrote my LORs are both trying to tell me that the Courtauld is not a good option and if I want to become an art historian I should choose a school in the US if I want to be accepted for a PhD. Now I’m pretty sure that isn’t true from everything I read, but that dissonance is making me feel like I’m going crazy and wonder if anyone has any input on that?

[artemisia]

11 minutes ago, wren said:

Hi all, I’ve received offers from both the Courtauld and Tufts and having trouble deciding between the two. My biggest issue is that my two undergrad professors who wrote my LORs are both trying to tell me that the Courtauld is not a good option and if I want to become an art historian I should choose a school in the US if I want to be accepted for a PhD. Now I’m pretty sure that isn’t true from everything I read, but that dissonance is making me feel like I’m going crazy and wonder if anyone has any input on that?

I am not sure why you would be given this advice, as the Courtauld is known for producing many scholars and leaders in the art world. I suggest checking the bios of current students at schools where you want to apply for a PhD. I believe there are Courtauld MA grads at Yale, Columbia, Berkeley, IFA, and many other top programs right now. That is not to say that Tufts wouldn't prepare you for graduate study, but it does suggest that a combination of academic skills developed at the Courtauld and their name recognition has helped place students at these programs. Of course, the Courtauld's special option system means that you have to be more sure about your area of focus than in a traditional MA program.

[epm8642]

1 hour ago, wren said:

Hi all, I’ve received offers from both the Courtauld and Tufts and having trouble deciding between the two. My biggest issue is that my two undergrad professors who wrote my LORs are both trying to tell me that the Courtauld is not a good option and if I want to become an art historian I should choose a school in the US if I want to be accepted for a PhD. Now I’m pretty sure that isn’t true from everything I read, but that dissonance is making me feel like I’m going crazy and wonder if anyone has any input on that?

Seems odd to me, too. My undergraduate advisor told me that by far the two most worthwhile MA programs if you really want to go on to a top program are Williams and the Courtauld. 

[N0rd]

7 hours ago, wren said:

Hi all, I’ve received offers from both the Courtauld and Tufts and having trouble deciding between the two. My biggest issue is that my two undergrad professors who wrote my LORs are both trying to tell me that the Courtauld is not a good option and if I want to become an art historian I should choose a school in the US if I want to be accepted for a PhD. Now I’m pretty sure that isn’t true from everything I read, but that dissonance is making me feel like I’m going crazy and wonder if anyone has any input on that?

I got similar advice as this. One of my undergrad advisors told me there was some opinion that the Courtauld doesn't adequately prepare students for later study in the US as it's a 9 month degree versus a two year degree for US based MA programs. It is worth remembering that the structure of the Courtauld MA program is very different from that of a US based MA. While the Courtauld is an rigorous program, you have a very narrow field of study and generally MA programs stateside have an emphasis on a general understanding of art history. That being said, I do believe that the name of the Courtauld carries a lot of weight and it would be beneficial if you apply to a PhD program later. 

As a side note I was admitted to the Courtauld this cycle but ultimately decided to accept an offer of a funded MA/PhD program in the US so I've spent a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of the Courtauld.

[curatortobe]

9 hours ago, wren said:

Hi all, I’ve received offers from both the Courtauld and Tufts and having trouble deciding between the two. My biggest issue is that my two undergrad professors who wrote my LORs are both trying to tell me that the Courtauld is not a good option and if I want to become an art historian I should choose a school in the US if I want to be accepted for a PhD. Now I’m pretty sure that isn’t true from everything I read, but that dissonance is making me feel like I’m going crazy and wonder if anyone has any input on that?

 

1 hour ago, CN0rd said:

I got similar advice as this. One of my undergrad advisors told me there was some opinion that the Courtauld doesn't adequately prepare students for later study in the US as it's a 9 month degree versus a two year degree for US based MA programs. It is worth remembering that the structure of the Courtauld MA program is very different from that of a US based MA. While the Courtauld is an rigorous program, you have a very narrow field of study and generally MA programs stateside have an emphasis on a general understanding of art history. That being said, I do believe that the name of the Courtauld carries a lot of weight and it would be beneficial if you apply to a PhD program later. 

As a side note I was admitted to the Courtauld this cycle but ultimately decided to accept an offer of a funded MA/PhD program in the US so I've spent a lot of time weighing the pros and cons of the Courtauld.

I’m starting to think this advice may vary depending on the strength of your undergraduate training. I.E. did you do art history at a well-regarded school (and did you write a thesis?) or did you major in something else or otherwise not feel completely prepared for a PhD? I have always been told the path to a good PhD is Williams or the Courtauld. Of course, if you feel like your art historical foundations aren’t entirely solid then a two-year American program is most likely going to teach you more than a one-year British program. If, however, you feel pretty comfortable with where you are academically then it seems to me hard to beat the seal of approval the Courtauld provides. I’ll be going to the Courtauld. That said, I can also understand arguments against it, particularly if it comes down to funded-at-Tufts vs not-funded-at-Courtauld.

 

(FWIW I have heard people say a Courtauld/British PhD is less respected than an American PhD, at least in American academia, so I don’t know if that’s confusing matters?)

[wren]

6 hours ago, curatortobe said:

 

I’m starting to think this advice may vary depending on the strength of your undergraduate training. I.E. did you do art history at a well-regarded school (and did you write a thesis?) or did you major in something else or otherwise not feel completely prepared for a PhD? I have always been told the path to a good PhD is Williams or the Courtauld. Of course, if you feel like your art historical foundations aren’t entirely solid then a two-year American program is most likely going to teach you more than a one-year British program. If, however, you feel pretty comfortable with where you are academically then it seems to me hard to beat the seal of approval the Courtauld provides. I’ll be going to the Courtauld. That said, I can also understand arguments against it, particularly if it comes down to funded-at-Tufts vs not-funded-at-Courtauld.

 

(FWIW I have heard people say a Courtauld/British PhD is less respected than an American PhD, at least in American academia, so I don’t know if that’s confusing matters?)

The strangest part is I’ve had some friends attend the courtauld in the last few years out of our program (which is admittedly at a school not particularly known for art history or the humanities in general really) and while neither has pursued a PhD yet, both ended up in pretty great jobs in museums or galleries less than six months after graduating, and said that while our small program led to some imposter syndrome at the courtauld, they felt perfectly prepared and on par knowledge wise. 

I’m wondering if perhaps my professors are just confused? Like I said my program was very small and while they are both great academics they’re also pretty removed from the sort of “academic machine” since our school is so far removed from it. 

But as you and everyone else has confirmed, the reputation of the courtauld I think is hard to beat, especially if you look at student bios at top PhD programs. 

I’ve received half tuition at tufts so monetarily the costs aren’t super disparate, so I’m reasonably sure I’ll be seeing you at the courtauld! 

[kat101]

1 hour ago, wren said:

The strangest part is I’ve had some friends attend the courtauld in the last few years out of our program (which is admittedly at a school not particularly known for art history or the humanities in general really) and while neither has pursued a PhD yet, both ended up in pretty great jobs in museums or galleries less than six months after graduating, and said that while our small program led to some imposter syndrome at the courtauld, they felt perfectly prepared and on par knowledge wise. 

I’m wondering if perhaps my professors are just confused? Like I said my program was very small and while they are both great academics they’re also pretty removed from the sort of “academic machine” since our school is so far removed from it. 

But as you and everyone else has confirmed, the reputation of the courtauld I think is hard to beat, especially if you look at student bios at top PhD programs. 

I’ve received half tuition at tufts so monetarily the costs aren’t super disparate, so I’m reasonably sure I’ll be seeing you at the courtauld! 

My undergrad (ivy league) advisor said that 4-6 years ago their top choice was to take people from Williams and the second was Courtauld, for what its worth. However, in the last 2-3 years, there's been a shift. I decided to do some digging. I found some of the recent Williams people at CUNY, Pitt, JHU, SMU, and Stanford. Don't get me wrong. Those are pretty respectable institutions. They just aren't Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. 

[pedestal]

13 hours ago, kat101 said:

My undergrad (ivy league) advisor said that 4-6 years ago their top choice was to take people from Williams and the second was Courtauld, for what its worth. However, in the last 2-3 years, there's been a shift. I decided to do some digging. I found some of the recent Williams people at CUNY, Pitt, JHU, SMU, and Stanford. Don't get me wrong. Those are pretty respectable institutions. They just aren't Harvard, Yale, or Princeton. 

There have always been Williams students going to CUNY, JHU and Stanford. There are also still more Williams students from recent classes going to Harvard, Yale and Princeton than going to the institutions you mentioned. Those three, along with Columbia and the IFA, are also considerably larger programs than many others, reputation notwithstanding. Looking at recent placements alongside older ones, there's really no shift. 

[kat101]

10 hours ago, pedestal said:

There have always been Williams students going to CUNY, JHU and Stanford. There are also still more Williams students from recent classes going to Harvard, Yale and Princeton than going to the institutions you mentioned. Those three, along with Columbia and the IFA, are also considerably larger programs than many others, reputation notwithstanding. Looking at recent placements alongside older ones, there's really no shift. 

I don't mean to be rude, but I did go through all the first and second year students at Yale. I don't have time to look at every program but NONE of the first or second year students there came from Williams. Many had MAs from Courtauld and Upenn. Some had BAs from Harvard and Chicago. Can you please give me examples of what you are pointing to that illustrates your point that there's "no shift?" Thanks. It would help me a lot with the next application season.

[michael fried]

12 minutes ago, kat101 said:

I don't mean to be rude, but I did go through all the first and second year students at Yale. I don't have time to look at every program but NONE of the first or second year students there came from Williams. Many had MAs from Courtauld and Upenn. Some had BAs from Harvard and Chicago. Can you please give me examples of what you are pointing to that illustrates your point that there's "no shift?" Thanks. It would help me a lot with the next application season.

Do not assume that no Williams students were admitted to Yale over the past two years simply because none attended; that’s a fallacy. 

[kat101]

11 minutes ago, michael fried said:

Do not assume that no Williams students were admitted to Yale over the past two years simply because none attended; that’s a fallacy. 

True. I guess I will still apply there. I just found their brochures from previous years and tracked down the students who expressed PhD plans. I find it hard to believe someone would take CUNY, Pitt, etc over Yale. But thanks for your advice. 

[DigitalHubris]

11 minutes ago, kat101 said:

True. I guess I will still apply there. I just found their brochures from previous years and tracked down the students who expressed PhD plans. I find it hard to believe someone would take CUNY, Pitt, etc over Yale. But thanks for your advice. 

Someone would make that decision for a range of reasons-- cultural/social fit, particulars of POI relationships, wanting to stay close to a partner/family, reservations over some of the more unsavory realities and/or the traditionalism of the Ivies, wanting the amenities and resources of a large city, etc. While every applicant has to make compromises, choosing a program is ultimately a very personal as well as professional decision. Of course, there are trends in success and job placement dependent on program, but it's also not so simple as just picking a "top" program because some of the metrics are quite subjective, and each applicant has their own unique priorities and concerns. And moreover, where you get your MA isn't the sole or even the most defining factor. 

[jbc568]

7 hours ago, michael fried said:

Do not assume that no Williams students were admitted to Yale over the past two years simply because none attended; that’s a fallacy. 

Seconded. Just because that population doesn't overlap with the one @kat101 mentioned (SMU, CUNY, etc) doesn't mean it does not exist.

Edited March 21, 2019 by jbc568

[pedestal]

6 hours ago, kat101 said:

True. I guess I will still apply there. I just found their brochures from previous years and tracked down the students who expressed PhD plans. I find it hard to believe someone would take CUNY, Pitt, etc over Yale. But thanks for your advice. 

I’d recommend looking up students at other programs besides Yale. There are nearly 10 students from Williams at Harvard and Princeton in the last 3 years. How many are at JHU/SMU/Pitt? (Also do you know there are a few people from JHU at Williams—including the director of the program?)

Edited March 21, 2019 by pedestal

[kat101]

21 minutes ago, pedestal said:

I’d recommend looking up students at other programs besides Yale. There are nearly 10 students from Williams at Harvard and Princeton in the last 3 years. How many are at JHU/SMU/Pitt? (Also do you know there are a few people from JHU at Williams—including the director of the program?)

Yes, my ex studied with Michael Holly and accepted a position at JHU because he/she was rejected from Yale, Harvard, and Berkeley. My close friend who started Harvard didn't have a Williams degree either. I must confess that I didn't spend time looking at Harvard because (a) their grad profiles are minimal and (b) they don't have a prof who I can work with. How do you know about the 10 people at Harvard from Williams? Three years seems a bit far back.

[pedestal]

5 minutes ago, kat101 said:

Yes, my ex studied with Michael Holly and accepted a position at JHU because he/she was rejected from Yale, Harvard, and Berkeley. My close friend who started Harvard didn't have a Williams degree either. I must confess that I didn't spend time looking at Harvard because (a) their grad profiles are minimal and (b) they don't have a prof who I can work with. How do you know about the 10 people at Harvard from Williams? Three years seems a bit far back.

Three years is far back?

[groundpills]

8 hours ago, kat101 said:

I don't mean to be rude, but I did go through all the first and second year students at Yale. I don't have time to look at every program but NONE of the first or second year students there came from Williams. Many had MAs from Courtauld and Upenn. Some had BAs from Harvard and Chicago. Can you please give me examples of what you are pointing to that illustrates your point that there's "no shift?" Thanks. It would help me a lot with the next application season.

two points:

1) I can't speak to the shift-or-no-shift, but I'm wondering if you know how Courtauld PhD placements compare to that of Williams students. 

2) On the application side of things, what are your conferences/pubs/etc like? Williams has a reputation for offering scholars an opportunity to pivot into art history from a different field, although maybe that's changed (part of the "shift?"). Perhaps, as others here are saying, you won't need to coursework Williams has to offer and would waste less time in a focused program at the Courtauld. 

3) Friends of mine at Harvard confirm the presence of Williams MAs, but 10 seems like a lot lol. 

Edited March 21, 2019 by groundpills

[Redondo]

On 3/21/2019 at 9:48 AM, kat101 said:

True. I guess I will still apply there. I just found their brochures from previous years and tracked down the students who expressed PhD plans. I find it hard to believe someone would take CUNY, Pitt, etc over Yale. But thanks for your advice. 

Few things...echoing the comments already made by some about the many factors that contribute to a person's choice to choose one program over another, with regards to Yale, and modern/contemporary specifically, the strength of that program dipped exponentially after the exodus of Nemerov, Joselit, and Jones around 2012 and is honestly only back on the up and up since Pam Lee started in the fall. Over the last five years CUNY was objectively the better program for the contemporary track. I also can state for a fact that 3 williams grads in 19th century from the last 3 years turned down Tim Barringer for Bridget Alsdorf at Princeton (x2) and André Dombrowski at Penn. Given the tilt in the field towards the study of art of the last 200 years, it tracks that if Williams too is primarily producing modern/contemporary PhD hopefuls they wouldn't place at Yale (except in the case of the sole first year at Yale from Williams who pivoted to medieval studies--so you wouldn't have caught them--and incidentally the Pitt person is also a medievalist). Between Princeton and Harvard there's definitely 10 williams grads in years 1-3 and more who are ABD; two in each class at Princeton and 3 in Harvard's second year class alone lol.

I've actually begun to suspect that if there's any problem with Williams' placement it's that they're producing too many hyper-qualified candidates. Where no more than 5 -7 years ago you could reasonably graduate with an MA and get a half decent museum job, the trend towards professionalization in museums has made competition for PhDs even starker. Of course programs want to bring in classes with diverse intellectual backgrounds, so when 4+ williams grads with the same LORs and similar CVs apply to work with the same advisor maybe they can only justify taking one (this may or may not have happened w Rachael DeLue at Princeton in last year's cycle).

The above is pedantry in any case: bottom line no one should pay for an MA in art history, and the Courtauld doesn't fully fund. You can tell yourself what you want about placement trends at Williams, but it doesn't graduate students into the extremely bleak job market/PhD circuit saddled with 10,000s in debt. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Redondo

[Redondo]

Just now, Redondo said:

Few things...echoing the comments already made by some about the many factors that contribute to a person's choice to choose one program over another, with regards to Yale, and modern/contemporary specifically, the strength of that program dipped exponentially after the exodus of Nemerov, Joselit, and Jones around 2012 and is honestly only back on the up and up since Pam Lee started in the fall. Over the last five years CUNY was objectively the better program for the contemporary track. I also can state for a fact that 3 williams grads in 19th century from the last 3 years turned down Tim Barringer for Bridget Alsdorf at Princeton (x2) and André Dombrowski at Penn. Given the tilt in the field towards the study of art of the last 200 years, it tracks that if Williams too is primarily producing modern/contemporary PhD hopefuls they wouldn't place at Yale (except in the case of the sole first year at Yale from Williams who pivoted to medieval studies--so you wouldn't have caught them--and incidentally the Pitt person is also a medievalist).

I've actually begun to suspect that if there's any problem with Williams' placement it's that they're producing too many hyper-qualified candidates. Where no more than 5 -7 years ago you could reasonably graduate with an MA and get a half decent museum job, the trend towards professionalization in museums has made competition for PhDs even starker. Of course programs want to bring in classes with diverse intellectual backgrounds, so when 4+ williams grads with the same LORs and similar CVs apply to work with the same advisor maybe they can only justify taking one (this may or may not have happened w Rachael DeLue at Princeton in last year's cycle).

The above is pedantry in any case: bottom line no one should pay for an MA in art history, and the Courtauld doesn't fully fund. You can tell yourself what you want about placement trends at Williams, but it doesn't graduate students into the extremely bleak job market/PhD circuit saddled with 10,000s in debt. For as long as that remains true it will be the only responsible choice for the MA. 

Also someone asked about this earlier in the thread and I feel like I've posted elsewhere but w/r/t funding at Williams admin can be cagey but if you're not offered funding out the gate you can just ask the DGS for it. Haven't heard of a case where they failed to come up with a stipend.

[Harper]

Advice needed for a friend:

He was accepted into the CUNY Grad Center and waitlisted at Penn. He decided to commit to CUNY about a week ago, not expecting to get off the waitlist. However, he was just accepted to Penn today. How bad would it be to pull out of CUNY? As far as I know, CUNY is an excellent program but Penn is more prestigious. Penn is also offering him more money. Anyone have any advice on how the programs stack up against each other and/or on pulling out of a program you've committed to?

Edit: He's focusing on medieval art, btw.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Harper

[FiLoveU]

15 hours ago, Harper said:

Advice needed for a friend:

He was accepted into the CUNY Grad Center and waitlisted at Penn. He decided to commit to CUNY about a week ago, not expecting to get off the waitlist. However, he was just accepted to Penn today. How bad would it be to pull out of CUNY? As far as I know, CUNY is an excellent program but Penn is more prestigious. Penn is also offering him more money. Anyone have any advice on how the programs stack up against each other and/or on pulling out of a program you've committed to?

 Edit: He's focusing on medieval art, btw.

He shouldn't have committed to CUNY so early, but doesn't have to go there for the next decade (or however long)! He should go wherever is right for him, its a huge decision! If he wants to accept Penn he'll have to send a very apologetic email to CUNY explaining his situation and might have to pay a small fine. I was talking with a Grad Center prof. who said that last year (maybe two years ago?) someone committed to both CUNY and an Ivy on April 15 and goes to the Ivy now... so it happens for sure. 

I believe Penn is stronger for Medieval Art (plus he can take class w/Alicia Walker at Bryn Mawr) and more money is more money and its overall easier to go to a private college and even better to go to an Ivy funding wise. One thing I've done when comparing programs and advisors is look through CAA's list of dissertations completed in the last few years. In each listing, the school and advisor's first initial and last name will appear in parentheses after the title, so you can do a "command+F" search for the right names. I then google search the student who wrote the dissertation and see what they're up to now (bearing in mind that a lot of other factors go into where people work).