UCLA vs. Berkeley for undergrad. How much more weight does Cal have over UCLA in masters/PhD admissions?

[JamesPratt]

Hi all,

I am a transfer student who just got admitted into UCLA and UC Berkeley for a political science BA. Im gravitating towards UCLA because of the less depressed atmosphere and general campus life, but I know that Cal is ranked higher in political science (USNWR has Cal at #4 and UCLA at #12). If I’m applying to a top tier masters or PhD program and I get a lot of undergrad research experience no matter where I go, will admissions favor the Berkeley candidate THAT much more than the UCLA one?

[SocialKonstruct]

2 minutes ago, JamesPratt said:

Hi all,

I am a transfer student who just got admitted into UCLA and UC Berkeley for a political science BA. Im gravitating towards UCLA because of the less depressed atmosphere and general campus life, but I know that Cal is ranked higher in political science (USNWR has Cal at #4 and UCLA at #12). If I’m applying to a top tier masters or PhD program and I get a lot of undergrad research experience no matter where I go, will admissions favor the Berkeley candidate THAT much more than the UCLA one?

To be honest, it really doesn't make much of a difference. (And I have a master's from Yale.)

[JamesPratt]

16 minutes ago, SocialKonstruct said:

To be honest, it really doesn't make much of a difference. (And I have a master's from Yale.)

In terms of general prestige, the gap is minimal, but Cal is significantly more prestigious in poli sci. Sadly, I don’t think I’d get a good letter of rec from renowned faculty at either school since most undergrad research at both schools is working for other PhD students. I’ll probably do masters before PhD, but you’re leaning towards the difference not mattering for getting into a masters program at Yale or a similar school?

[uchenyy]

I would say that the difference is negligible. Both offer excellent programs. I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get into a top program coming out of either department.

Edited May 30, 2020 by uchenyy

[Sigaba]

11 hours ago, JamesPratt said:

Hi all,

I am a transfer student who just got admitted into UCLA and UC Berkeley for a political science BA. Im gravitating towards UCLA because of the less depressed atmosphere and general campus life, but I know that Cal is ranked higher in political science (USNWR has Cal at #4 and UCLA at #12). If I’m applying to a top tier masters or PhD program and I get a lot of undergrad research experience no matter where I go, will admissions favor the Berkeley candidate THAT much more than the UCLA one?

A way to answer your question is to look at the CVs of academics who work where you want to work. Can you find a pattern that indicates graduates of Cal--the crown jewel of the University of California system, and premier public university in all the known multiverse--get better jobs than graduates of the lowly second rate school in Los Angeles?  (I say "jobs" rather than admission to graduate programs because ultimately it is about getting a job.)

FWIW, in my experience, the cache of graduating from Cal can be breathtaking. Professors have sat up in their chars upon learning I went there. (Of course, I started talking and they went back to doodling.)

[polsciguy88]

12 hours ago, JamesPratt said:

 Sadly, I don’t think I’d get a good letter of rec from renowned faculty at either school since most undergrad research at both schools is working for other PhD students. 

This is a very, very, silly assumption. Writing LORs is part of every professor's job, how do you think undergraduates get into top programs? They get letters from top scholars. How do they get them? They take their classes, they do independent studies with them, they get them to advise their senior theses, and they work as RAs for them. Of course good undergraduate students get good letters from top scholars at top programs.

As for where you should go, I'm less bullish on this than other people here. It's more about what you do while you're there than which one you go to; they both have fantastic political science programs, with good faculty, and with plenty of undergraduates that end up getting into top PhD programs from both. If it were me? I'd go to Berkeley because it's a better school in the general sense, but I don't think I'd make this decision based strictly on a criteria of political science programs.

Edited May 30, 2020 by polsciguy88

[Sigaba]

5 hours ago, polsciguy88 said:

This is a very, very, silly assumption. Writing LORs is part of every professor's job, how do you think undergraduates get into top programs?

I don't know if doubling down on your attack on someone doing his level best to make a good decision makes your post any more credible.

IME at Cal, most of the instruction of upper division courses was done by graduate students. It was my understanding that this practice was common throughout the College of Letters and Sciences. If your experience was different, please share that information. 

Also, if one were to spend an appreciable amount of time reading on this BB, one will find myriad examples in which aspiring graduate students learn that professors view their responsibilities differently.

 

 

[polsciguy88]

9 hours ago, Sigaba said:

I don't know if doubling down on your attack on someone doing his level best to make a good decision makes your post any more credible.

IME at Cal, most of the instruction of upper division courses was done by graduate students. It was my understanding that this practice was common throughout the College of Letters and Sciences. If your experience was different, please share that information. 

Also, if one were to spend an appreciable amount of time reading on this BB, one will find myriad examples in which aspiring graduate students learn that professors view their responsibilities differently.

 

 

I'm sorry, but claiming that it's not possible, or unlikely, to be able to get good letters of recommendation at Berkeley or UCLA as an undergraduate is just so far from the truth, it's not even worth further discussion.

Edited May 31, 2020 by polsciguy88

[Sigaba]

6 hours ago, polsciguy88 said:

I'm sorry, but claiming that it's not possible, or unlikely, to be able to get good letters of recommendation at Berkeley or UCLA as an undergraduate is just so far from the truth, it's not even worth further discussion.

That's not what @JamesPratt wrote. Did you go to Cal or UCLA? 

[JamesPratt]

10 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

That's not what @JamesPratt wrote. Did you go to Cal or UCLA? 

In your experience, was it hard to get letters of rec from faculty at Cal? Also, are masters admissions more understanding of Cal kids’ LORs from PhD students because they know how hard it is to access professors? I’m coming out of community college so I really don’t know. 

[JamesPratt]

6 hours ago, polsciguy88 said:

I'm sorry, but claiming that it's not possible, or unlikely, to be able to get good letters of recommendation at Berkeley or UCLA as an undergraduate is just so far from the truth, it's not even worth further discussion.

Did you know anyone who got faculty LORs at big public schools? Are they the norm?

[JamesPratt]

On 5/30/2020 at 12:08 AM, SocialKonstruct said:

To be honest, it really doesn't make much of a difference. (And I have a master's from Yale.)

If you don’t mind me asking, where did you go for undergrad? We’re there a lot of UCLA kids in your masters program?

[polsciguy88]

35 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

That's not what @JamesPratt wrote. Did you go to Cal or UCLA? 

"Sadly, I don’t think I’d get a good letter of rec from renowned faculty at either school since most undergrad research at both schools is working for other PhD students."

That is his exact words. So yes, it is precisely what he wrote. 

[JamesPratt]

Just now, polsciguy88 said:

"Sadly, I don’t think I’d get a good letter of rec from renowned faculty at either school since most undergrad research at both schools is working for other PhD students."

That is his exact words. So yes, it is precisely what he wrote. 

Will masters/PhD admissions put more weight on Cal LORs than UCLA ones?

[polsciguy88]

Just now, JamesPratt said:

Will masters/PhD admissions put more weight on Cal LORs than UCLA ones?

No. At least, not necessarily. It depends more the content of the LORs, and also, who is writing them.

Edited May 31, 2020 by polsciguy88

[polsciguy88]

25 minutes ago, JamesPratt said:

Did you know anyone who got faculty LORs at big public schools? Are they the norm?

Yes, plenty. Undergraduate students, particularly good ones, receiving LORs from faculty at every single education institution in the US is the norm. 

[SocialKonstruct]

52 minutes ago, JamesPratt said:

If you don’t mind me asking, where did you go for undergrad? We’re there a lot of UCLA kids in your masters program?

I was a Honors English literature (Chancellor's full ride scholarship) at Vanderbilt. No UCLA kids there.

Then I went to Yale for public health (EHS and some policy studies) a few years later. I'm back in school now for art!

[SocialKonstruct]

28 minutes ago, polsciguy88 said:

No. At least, not necessarily. It depends more the content of the LORs, and also, who is writing them.

Agreed. No one will care about where you went if you don't write a solid essay/argument/paper or are able to delineate a good scholarly potential. I definitely can say that many people with a solid name on their resume didn't get in necessarily to top graduate programs.

[Paulcg87]

On 5/30/2020 at 12:03 AM, JamesPratt said:

Hi all,

I am a transfer student who just got admitted into UCLA and UC Berkeley for a political science BA. Im gravitating towards UCLA because of the less depressed atmosphere and general campus life, but I know that Cal is ranked higher in political science (USNWR has Cal at #4 and UCLA at #12). If I’m applying to a top tier masters or PhD program and I get a lot of undergrad research experience no matter where I go, will admissions favor the Berkeley candidate THAT much more than the UCLA one?

@JamesPratt congratulations on getting into two amazing programs. About a decade ago, I spent a summer at Cal doing an energy policy workshop with GSPP and Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. For what it's worth, if it were me, I'd go to Cal, but that's because I'm an IR specialization. I know UCLA and Cal seem to be trading the USNWR ranking for best public school, but Cal has (in my opinion) better contacts with government and private IR think tanks, including very close ties with CGSR at Lawrence Livermore and Rand, both through their polisci and public policy programs. I saw this personally, with my own eyes. Additionally, Cal's proximity to the tech/STEM companies and startups in SF and silicon valley are beneficial if you're interested in some specific research areas. If you are a theory, comparative or AP person then I don't think you can go wrong with either school. If you are IR, go to Cal and take advantage of both an incredible polisci department and the relationship that department has with the best quantitative public policy school in the world and two of the best national laboratories (LBNL and LLNL, both of which hire political scientists). 

[puddle]

I did my undergrad at UCLA and PhD at Yale with a Canadian Masters in between. I was a recruited student athlete choosing between UCLA (on scholarship) and Princeton (on parental goodwill). I loved my time at UCLA and have no regrets about my choice and don't feel that it held me back in any way.