Unusual problems with rec letters. Advice?

[10011010]

To set the scene, I'm from a pretty much third world country, so I guess this story isn't all that surprising.

I'm applying to STEM PhD programs in the US. The thing is, I had a  quarrel with my research supervisor right before graduating with my MSc. As a result, I was expelled (even though I was top of my class and my thesis was ready). I can't go into details to stay anonymous. I can only tell that the lab in which I was working was beyond abusive. Afterward, I collaborated with some friends and published a couple of papers. Is that OK if I request LORs from them? They are only grad students at the moment. I don't really trust my previous teachers, because it's a small university and all the staff members there are basically close friends. I've been told that the rest of my application is strong enough for top schools. Will this problem seriously hurt my chances? I've read some stuff about it on gradcafe but that situation was a bit different...

Edited August 6, 2020 by 10011010

[AP]

No, it will look incredibly suspicious if absolutely none of your letters come from anyone in a teaching capacity somewhere. One of these “friends” can write the third letter and outline their experience working with you aFuer you left the abusive situation. Did you graduate?

[10011010]

7 minutes ago, AP said:

No, it will look incredibly suspicious if absolutely none of your letters come from anyone in a teaching capacity somewhere. One of these “friends” can write the third letter and outline their experience working with you aFuer you left the abusive situation. Did you 

I had graduated before with my BSc. But, as I said, I was expelled from my master's program.

Edited August 6, 2020 by 10011010

[10011010]

7 minutes ago, AP said:

No, it will look incredibly suspicious if absolutely none of your letters come from anyone in a teaching capacity somewhere. One of these “friends” can write the third letter and outline their experience working with you aFuer you left the abusive situation. Did you graduate?

What about industry chemists? Would their rec letters be acceptable?

Looks like I'm screwed regardless of what I do, right?

[AP]

Basically, you need people that know you. I came from abroad as well* and I had a letter from my employer. I don’t why industry ppl couldn’t work if they have worked with you. 
 

Is the BSc from the same institution or could you reach to them? 

I’m assuming you are not mentioning the master’s in your CV?

* I know you don’t mean it that way, but when you say stuff like “I’m from a third world country so this was bound to happen” you perpetuate stereotypes that other of us are working hard to undo. My accent accompanies me to every class and every meeting, promoting people to ask where I’m from. I understand you want to contextualize, but I can assure you shit like this happens in the global north as well. 

[DRMF]

(1) I'd say many of the programs I applied to required (at least 1 of the 3) rec letter writers to be university faculty that taught you. Their general website may not specify but the actual application portal usually would state such requirements, if there's any. You may want to start an application account for each target school to figure out this detail.

(2) For your grad student friends - are their PIs nice/sympathetic people? Have you interacted with them in any academic/research capacity? If so, you could ask for the student/friend and their PI to "co-sign" the letter, which is not uncommon. Even if you're on good terms with a PI, often on a day-to-day basis someone else in the lab may know you better, so this co-signing thing is done to make sure the letter has both personal details and the authority of a university faculty member. Logistically that may mean you'll have to request a letter from the friend's advisor, and when they upload the letter on their end, they can choose to specify it was written by 2 people.

(3) Does any co-author on your "couple of papers" happen to be any sort of faculty somewhere? Ask them.

(4) Consider establishing a relationship with people at your target schools. Email program directors, POIs, go to (zoom) info sessions, ask for advice in somewhat informal settings. If you don't want to bring up specifics, just ask if there are hard requirements for who write the rec letters.

(5) I imagine there are people who previously graduated from your MSc lab who may have known you professionally and who may be sympathetic. If any of them now hold faculty titles (even if adjunct or some less prestigious type of teaching positions) and don't fear repercussions from their old school/PI, they could potentially write you a letter as well.

(6) Almost all applications have a specific section where you can explain special circumstances, and if you want to programs to know your story, that's where you'd put it. When you're considering how much to tell, remember that most applications ask something like "Have you ever been expelled, dismissed, suspended, placed on probation, or otherwise subject to disciplinary sanction by any school, college, or university?" so unless you plan to keep lying for years, omitting your entire MSc experience is unlikely to end well.

[10011010]

9 hours ago, AP said:

Basically, you need people that know you. I came from abroad as well* and I had a letter from my employer. I don’t why industry ppl couldn’t work if they have worked with you. 
 

Is the BSc from the same institution or could you reach to them? 

I’m assuming you are not mentioning the master’s in your CV?

* I know you don’t mean it that way, but when you say stuff like “I’m from a third world country so this was bound to happen” you perpetuate stereotypes that other of us are working hard to undo. My accent accompanies me to every class and every meeting, promoting people to ask where I’m from. I understand you want to contextualize, but I can assure you shit like this happens in the global north as well. 

I did my BSc in the same institution.

I'm sorry if that 'third world' thing sounded offensive. I reallly just wanted to provide some context.

I assume I shouldn't mention the fact that I finished my grad-level courses with top GPA? How should I phrase it? Will it be better if I just say that I have 2 additional years of lab experience? Or should I just leave an unexplained 2-year gap in my resume?

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by 10011010

[10011010]

6 hours ago, DRMF said:

(1) I'd say many of the programs I applied to required (at least 1 of the 3) rec letter writers to be university faculty that taught you. Their general website may not specify but the actual application portal usually would state such requirements, if there's any. You may want to start an application account for each target school to figure out this detail.

(2) For your grad student friends - are their PIs nice/sympathetic people? Have you interacted with them in any academic/research capacity? If so, you could ask for the student/friend and their PI to "co-sign" the letter, which is not uncommon. Even if you're on good terms with a PI, often on a day-to-day basis someone else in the lab may know you better, so this co-signing thing is done to make sure the letter has both personal details and the authority of a university faculty member. Logistically that may mean you'll have to request a letter from the friend's advisor, and when they upload the letter on their end, they can choose to specify it was written by 2 people.

(3) Does any co-author on your "couple of papers" happen to be any sort of faculty somewhere? Ask them.

(4) Consider establishing a relationship with people at your target schools. Email program directors, POIs, go to (zoom) info sessions, ask for advice in somewhat informal settings. If you don't want to bring up specifics, just ask if there are hard requirements for who write the rec letters.

(5) I imagine there are people who previously graduated from your MSc lab who may have known you professionally and who may be sympathetic. If any of them now hold faculty titles (even if adjunct or some less prestigious type of teaching positions) and don't fear repercussions from their old school/PI, they could potentially write you a letter as well.

(6) Almost all applications have a specific section where you can explain special circumstances, and if you want to programs to know your story, that's where you'd put it. When you're considering how much to tell, remember that most applications ask something like "Have you ever been expelled, dismissed, suspended, placed on probation, or otherwise subject to disciplinary sanction by any school, college, or university?" so unless you plan to keep lying for years, omitting your entire MSc experience is unlikely to end well.

Thank you for such a detailed response! 

2) Unfortunately, I've never even seen their previous supervisors and I know nothing about them.

3) AFAIK, they are all PhD students.

4) That's actually a good idea. I'll try that.

5) Neither of them are faculty at the moment. 

6) I've never lied and I'm not planning to. I am just worried about how I should explain this situation and about whether I should bring it up. The question you mentioned implies disciplinary expulsion, and my situation is very different...

[Sigaba]

51 minutes ago, 10011010 said:

6) I've never lied and I'm not planning to. I am just worried about how I should explain this situation and about whether I should bring it up. The question you mentioned implies disciplinary expulsion, and my situation is very different...

Please make sure to read very carefully the fine print of your graduate school applications as well as the relevant policies of the programs, schools, and colleges (universities) you want to attend. You want to make sure that omitting facts will not be considered the same as lying. Or, at the very least, understand your risk for omitting facts if you decide to go that route.

[10011010]

6 minutes ago, Sigaba said:

Please make sure to read very carefully the fine print of your graduate school applications as well as the relevant policies of the programs, schools, and colleges (universities) you want to attend. You want to make sure that omitting facts will not be considered the same as lying. Or, at the very least, understand your risk for omitting facts if you decide to go that route.

Thank you.

[AP]

1 hour ago, 10011010 said:

I did my BSc in the same institution.

I'm sorry if that 'third world' thing sounded offensive. I reallly just wanted to provide some context.

I assume I shouldn't mention the fact that I finished my grad-level courses with top GPA? How should I phrase it? Will it be better if I just say that I have 2 additional years of lab experience? Or should I just leave an unexplained 2-year gap in my resume?

 

Disclaimer: I'm in the humanities so I'd wait a little bit until someone in the sciences answers here or in another thread.

BUT:

If you finished coursework and did not graduate, I would still mention in your CV that your completed coursework. I wouldn't bring it up in a SoP unless it helps you. You want to be assertive, not defensive in SoPs. Eg: You can mention you have lab experience even though you did not graduate. They can ask in the interview and you should prepare a one-sentence response that shows you are not a problem person and that you are not blaming anyone. Like "For personal reasons, I could not finish my degree and thus my advisor could not provide a LOR." 

Do not think of years unexplained as gaps. People do stuff or deal with stuff. I can assure no one is like: oh, 26 years old and they have two years unexplained. You honestly think they have time to sift through all those CVs and think that? I think what you need to remember, from foreigner to foreigner, is that in the US every document you present is an argument. Use your CV to make the case they should accept you. Here people learn how to do that but in other places such as my country and maybe yours, we don't learn to tweak our CV to our advantage. This is not lying or omitting. It's simply presenting the information in such a way that when a burned out faculty, tired of dealing with covid, looks at your CV and says, aha! this is it! 

Yet, you need LORs. 

[10011010]

58 minutes ago, AP said:

Disclaimer: I'm in the humanities so I'd wait a little bit until someone in the sciences answers here or in another thread.

BUT:

If you finished coursework and did not graduate, I would still mention in your CV that your completed coursework. I wouldn't bring it up in a SoP unless it helps you. You want to be assertive, not defensive in SoPs. Eg: You can mention you have lab experience even though you did not graduate. They can ask in the interview and you should prepare a one-sentence response that shows you are not a problem person and that you are not blaming anyone. Like "For personal reasons, I could not finish my degree and thus my advisor could not provide a LOR." 

Do not think of years unexplained as gaps. People do stuff or deal with stuff. I can assure no one is like: oh, 26 years old and they have two years unexplained. You honestly think they have time to sift through all those CVs and think that? I think what you need to remember, from foreigner to foreigner, is that in the US every document you present is an argument. Use your CV to make the case they should accept you. Here people learn how to do that but in other places such as my country and maybe yours, we don't learn to tweak our CV to our advantage. This is not lying or omitting. It's simply presenting the information in such a way that when a burned out faculty, tired of dealing with covid, looks at your CV and says, aha! this is it! 

Yet, you need LORs. 

The problem is that if I mention finishing my grad-level coursework, they'll want transcripts. It will be hard getting them from my university...

[Valorship98]

I would explain the situation as completely and confidentially in your application as possible and fine ANYONE you worked with that either left your institution, became faculty elsewhere or still holds you in good favor from your institution to write a letter for you.

[AP]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:30 PM, 10011010 said:

The problem is that if I mention finishing my grad-level coursework, they'll want transcripts. It will be hard getting them from my university...

Check this, but transcripts are documents that belong to you and attest to your work. It would be very problematic if they denied them to you.

[10011010]

On 8/10/2020 at 12:15 AM, Valorship98 said:

I would explain the situation as completely and confidentially in your application as possible and fine ANYONE you worked with that either left your institution, became faculty elsewhere or still holds you in good favor from your institution to write a letter for you.

Thank you.

[10011010]

On 8/12/2020 at 3:15 AM, AP said:

Check this, but transcripts are documents that belong to you and attest to your work. It would be very problematic if they denied them to you.

Thank you.