My former advisor is not supportive to my plan to apply to PhD programs..

[onomatopoeia_]

I feel tremendously discouraged....

I have graduated for almost six years now and have always been thinking about applying to Ph.D programs after gaining some experiences in the industry. My GPA was around 3.7 in my M.A. program and I have maintained great relationship with my former advisor..we have been emailing each other throughout these years and even met a couple times. However, when I emailed her about my intention to apply to Ph.D programs this fall, she was shocked and suggested that this may not be a good idea. She asked me about the programs that I am interested in applying to, so I sent her a list with all the professors I am interested in working with at each institution and why I found their works relevant to my research. She only replied with a comment about these are mostly the top tier schools and they will not consider applicants that are not graduated from the same prestigious programs, while my school is only ranked 40-50, so there is very little hope for me to get in.

Although I know I should have faith in myself and stick to the plan, I have to admit that I feel devastated and hurt..I was hoping she would offer me some advice about how to get in instead of letting me know upfront that I should give up...any advice? please please please help....thanks so much!

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by onomatopoeia_

[nęm0]

You miss 100% of the shots you dont take.

On that same note, you have nothing to loose, your advisor may choose not to write you a letter of recc but I bet you can find other people who will, maybe include some of the school she think would be a good match for you, so that is a win-win.

Good luck, the application cycle for this year is going to be fucked.

[baerga]

Does your advisor have relationships (even tangentially) to faculty at the programs that you were dissuaded against applying to? I would weigh her reply against that fact. There's many wonderful programs with funding below the top twenty (I am in the same place myself, applying this cycle).

[Sigaba]

3 hours ago, onomatopoeia_ said:

.I was hoping she would offer me some advice about how to get in instead of letting me know upfront that I should give up...any advice? please please please help....thanks so much!

I am not sure she didn't give you actionable advice. By my reading of your post, she has suggested to you that your manage your expectations for the schools on your list and to cast a broader net to include programs where you might have better odds for earning an offer of admission.

In the event you ask her for more support, I suggest you phrase your requests for comments on how you can make yourself a more competitive applicant. Try to keep the conversation centered around skill development.

Also, please keep in mind that one hears "no" a lot in doctoral programs. Often, the "no" comes from individuals who are not generally supportive. Sometimes, "no" comes from those who have your best interests in mind. The challenge is figuring out the meaning of the "no" and deciding upon the level of effort one wants to make to turn that "no" into a "yes." (And ultimately, that may require telling someone "no." As in "Yes, I've heard your 'no,' but no, I'm going to do it my way...")

[Bronte1985]

So your former advisor gave you advice you didn't want to hear? That's hard, I know, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider seriously what she is saying. She wasn't trying to hurt you. She was giving you her informed opinion based on what she knows about your work and PhD admissions, and she would be doing you a disservice if she gave you false hope. But that doesn't mean she's right. You have her opinion, and now you need to be clear-eyed about your chances of getting in to a prestigious program. No one here can do that for you, and getting there may involve painful, honest introspection about your academic record and aptitude. If this is something you really want, you have to ask yourself: 1) am I willing to sacrifice the time and emotion and intellectual labor writing applications to top programs even if there's a good chance I won't get in? 2) am I willing to apply to lower-tiered schools, knowing that graduating from one will make finding an academic or curatorial job even harder? In my experience, many students applying to PhDs overestimate their abilities and underestimate the competition, especially if they've been a big fish in a small pond, and they have unrealistic expectations about their job prospects at the end of the PhD. Unfortunately, most people have to learn these lessons the hard way. That said, it is possible to succeed, despite the odds, but it takes a tremendous amount of hard work and emotional fortitude. Being a successful academic has, after a certain point, only a little do with how smart you are; it has to with your persistence, drive, and savvy. If you continue on the path towards a PhD, you will encounter more discouraging "no's" than you'll know what to do with. No, your paper wasn't good enough. No, you didn't get that fellowship. No, your article wasn't accepted. No, you didn't get that job interview. They keep coming and it *is* emotionally devastating. In brief, think of this advice from your former advisor as the first hurdle of many you will encounter. Do you really want to run the gauntlet, with all the sacrifices that entails, to end up with a degree that may or may not lead to the kind of job you're hoping for? It can be tremendously rewarding, but only for a very specific kind of person. I urge you to consider your situation and your goals carefully. 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Bronte1985

[onomatopoeia_]

23 hours ago, Number34 said:

You miss 100% of the shots you dont take.

On that same note, you have nothing to loose, your advisor may choose not to write you a letter of recc but I bet you can find other people who will, maybe include some of the school she think would be a good match for you, so that is a win-win.

Good luck, the application cycle for this year is going to be fucked.

Thank you so much for the encouragement! Yes, even though this could be a long shot, it's better than not applying at all. My advisor did suggest a couple schools that I am not very interested in, maybe I should include them any way.....

 

 

 

20 hours ago, baerga said:

Does your advisor have relationships (even tangentially) to faculty at the programs that you were dissuaded against applying to? I would weigh her reply against that fact. There's many wonderful programs with funding below the top twenty (I am in the same place myself, applying this cycle).

 

Yes. She actually are friends of some of the faculty members from the programs on my list, although they work in different areas..I guess she meant the quality of the research that is expected in such programs in general..?

Good luck with your application too! I hope you get into your top choices!

 

 

20 hours ago, Sigaba said:

I am not sure she didn't give you actionable advice. By my reading of your post, she has suggested to you that your manage your expectations for the schools on your list and to cast a broader net to include programs where you might have better odds for earning an offer of admission.

In the event you ask her for more support, I suggest you phrase your requests for comments on how you can make yourself a more competitive applicant. Try to keep the conversation centered around skill development.

Also, please keep in mind that one hears "no" a lot in doctoral programs. Often, the "no" comes from individuals who are not generally supportive. Sometimes, "no" comes from those who have your best interests in mind. The challenge is figuring out the meaning of the "no" and deciding upon the level of effort one wants to make to turn that "no" into a "yes." (And ultimately, that may require telling someone "no." As in "Yes, I've heard your 'no,' but no, I'm going to do it my way...")

 

Hi Sigaba, Thank you! I think you are absolutely right, I agree that she wants to keep my expectations realistic rather than just say something diplomatic but meaningless...

And thanks for helping me to deal with the "no"..I kept telling myself that I should not be discouraged by my advisor's response and just move forward with the application, but deep inside I know that the "no" from her triggered much insecurity and self-doubt..such as I am not good enough that I can never get her approval, then how could I ever get into any top programs...yes, I should endeavor to improve my research and writing skills to change her mind rather than indulging in negative thoughts...

 

17 hours ago, Bronte1985 said:

So your former advisor gave you advice you didn't want to hear? That's hard, I know, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider seriously what she is saying. She wasn't trying to hurt you. She was giving you her informed opinion based on what she knows about your work and PhD admissions, and she would be doing you a disservice if she gave you false hope. But that doesn't mean she's right. You have her opinion, and now you need to be clear-eyed about your chances of getting in to a prestigious program. No one here can do that for you, and getting there may involve painful, honest introspection about your academic record and aptitude. If this is something you really want, you have to ask yourself: 1) am I willing to sacrifice the time and emotion and intellectual labor writing applications to top programs even if there's a good chance I won't get in? 2) am I willing to apply to lower-tiered schools, knowing that graduating from one will make finding an academic or curatorial job even harder? In my experience, many students applying to PhDs overestimate their abilities and underestimate the competition, especially if they've been a big fish in a small pond, and they have unrealistic expectations about their job prospects at the end of the PhD. Unfortunately, most people have to learn these lessons the hard way. That said, it is possible to succeed, despite the odds, but it takes a tremendous amount of hard work and emotional fortitude. Being a successful academic has, after a certain point, only a little do with how smart you are; it has to with your persistence, drive, and savvy. If you continue on the path towards a PhD, you will encounter more discouraging "no's" than you'll know what to do with. No, your paper wasn't good enough. No, you didn't get that fellowship. No, your article wasn't accepted. No, you didn't get that job interview. They keep coming and it *is* emotionally devastating. In brief, think of this advice from your former advisor as the first hurdle of many you will encounter. Do you really want to run the gauntlet, with all the sacrifices that entails, to end up with a degree that may or may not lead to the kind of job you're hoping for? It can be tremendously rewarding, but only for a very specific kind of person. I urge you to consider your situation and your goals carefully. 

Dear Bronte1985, thanks so much for your insight! I found every word true and helpful.. I might have overestimated my aptitude and keep aiming for something higher than I can reach at the moment...I appreciate that you mentioned "tremendous amount of hard work". It is so true. I never feel I have done anything remotely close to what I should have done, and this could be the reason for my lack of emotional fortitude...so work harder is always the answer...

I have been thinking about other options for a long time and always come back to the idea of getting a Ph.D..in the last six years since I graduated from the M.A. program I have made almost of all my major decisions based on the prospect of "maybe I will attend a Ph.D program next year" and everything I do feels like an overstretched prelude. I really don't want to just give it up for the first "no"...thank you for letting me know that this is just a beginning of many many rejections along the way. This vision of what lies ahead down the road, although brutal, is surprisingly comforting. Now I feel much less concerned about what my advisor said in the email...thanks again for the input. I really really appreciate it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by onomatopoeia_

[Bronte1985]

41 minutes ago, onomatopoeia_ said:

 

Dear Bronte1985, thanks so much for your insight! I found every word true and helpful.. I might have overestimated my aptitude and keep aiming for something higher than I can reach at the moment...I appreciate that you mentioned "tremendous amount of hard work". It is so true. I never feel I have done anything remotely close to what I should have done, and this could be the reason for my lack of emotional fortitude...so work harder is always the answer...

I have been thinking about other options for a long time and always come back to the idea of getting a Ph.D..in the last six years since I graduated from the M.A. program I have made almost of all my major decisions based on the prospect of "maybe I will attend a Ph.D program next year" and everything I do feels like an overstretched prelude. I really don't want to just give it up for the first "no"...thank you for letting me know that this is just a beginning of many many rejections along the way. This vision of what lies ahead down the road, although brutal, is surprisingly comforting. Now I feel much less concerned about what my advisor said in the email...thanks again for the input. I really really appreciate it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad that was helpful! Another thing I'll say is that one of the most pernicious things about academia is the way it encourages you to identify your self-worth with academic success and how your peers judge you. That's not a good way to lead your life whether or not you're a "success", but keep in mind that being a successful art historian or any kind of academic is a very specific skill. Failing at it does not mean you're not a smart person with a lot to contribute to the world. You are not your work. 

[onomatopoeia_]

22 hours ago, Bronte1985 said:

I'm glad that was helpful! Another thing I'll say is that one of the most pernicious things about academia is the way it encourages you to identify your self-worth with academic success and how your peers judge you. That's not a good way to lead your life whether or not you're a "success", but keep in mind that being a successful art historian or any kind of academic is a very specific skill. Failing at it does not mean you're not a smart person with a lot to contribute to the world. You are not your work. 

Thanks Bronte1985! I can't agree more. To avoid unnecessary emotional breakdown, I should maintain my internal balance and not let other people to determine my self worth...it is hard, even though I understand it in theory.. 

[feralgrad]

On 9/19/2020 at 8:54 AM, onomatopoeia_ said:

I have been thinking about other options for a long time and always come back to the idea of getting a Ph.D..in the last six years since I graduated from the M.A. program

Out of curiosity, what's your goal in getting a PhD? I lurk on the humanities forums a lot (former history major, so I consider y'all my comrades), and from what I understand, the job market post-PhD is pretty barren. That's not to discourage you. Maybe you just really want a few years to research something you're passionate about, in which case a less prestigious program would still offer what you want. Alternatively, you may want to consider if there are other ways you can engage in your passions without going the traditional route.

[venusofwillendork]

On 9/18/2020 at 9:09 AM, onomatopoeia_ said:

However, when I emailed her about my intention to apply to Ph.D programs this fall, she was shocked and suggested that this may not be a good idea. She asked me about the programs that I am interested in applying to, so I sent her a list with all the professors I am interested in working with at each institution and why I found their works relevant to my research. She only replied with a comment about these are mostly the top tier schools and they will not consider applicants that are not graduated from the same prestigious programs, while my school is only ranked 40-50, so there is very little hope for me to get in.

Hi @onomatopoeia_!  The above responses are full of good advice.  I wanted to add two points.  First, though I can imagine it was really hard to hear your advisor's negative response, this may not be as negative as it seems.  Like the others above, it seems like your advisor is suggesting that you manage your expectations.  Even with an MA, the applications are /extremely/ competitive in this field.  You can be very very qualified, and still get in nowhere.  It's also been 6 years since your advisor knew you as a student!  Perhaps you have grown significantly in your writing and research skills too.  But (at least what you describe), she doesn't seem to entirely be doubting your skill, or even questioning your advisor-advisee relationship, perhaps just imposing her concern about the competitiveness of the field -- she may very well still be a source for a rec letter and advice in your app process.  

I also think that you can make up for a less prestigious program with clear demonstration of your writing and research skills, with a cogent explanation of what research you want accomplish in school, and with contact with the professors at your chosen university.  I'm sure you're already doing it, but talking to other folks (like previous internship supervisors, etc.) might give you other connections to faculty and other perspectives about the competitiveness of the app field.  Considering universities who are not necessarily ivies, but who still have a good record of job placement, is definitely a worthwhile pursuit if you are concerned about not being from a tier-1 university.

[onomatopoeia_]

On 9/20/2020 at 11:59 PM, feralgrad said:

Out of curiosity, what's your goal in getting a PhD? I lurk on the humanities forums a lot (former history major, so I consider y'all my comrades), and from what I understand, the job market post-PhD is pretty barren. That's not to discourage you. Maybe you just really want a few years to research something you're passionate about, in which case a less prestigious program would still offer what you want. Alternatively, you may want to consider if there are other ways you can engage in your passions without going the traditional route.

Hi feralgrad,

Thanks for the question! Ideally, I hope to stay in academic or work in the curatorial department in a museum, but am open to any research-oriented positions. I have been working in the commercial side of the industry..while it has been exciting, I come to realize my options to advance my career is either pursue management/administrative or sales positions on higher level. Both are great, but I would really like to work on projects that entail more intellectual challenges..as much as I understand that my research capacity is mediocre or even very weak at the moment, I would really like to improve it. although I have been doing okay in my current position, I don't feel the same passion or desire about polishing my administrative or sales skills...wish there were other paths available...But I think you are right about having a plan b, if I don't get accepted anywhere I guess I will just try to do independent research on the side to gain more experience before reapply...

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by onomatopoeia_

[onomatopoeia_]

19 hours ago, venusofwillendork said:

Hi @onomatopoeia_!  The above responses are full of good advice.  I wanted to add two points.  First, though I can imagine it was really hard to hear your advisor's negative response, this may not be as negative as it seems.  Like the others above, it seems like your advisor is suggesting that you manage your expectations.  Even with an MA, the applications are /extremely/ competitive in this field.  You can be very very qualified, and still get in nowhere.  It's also been 6 years since your advisor knew you as a student!  Perhaps you have grown significantly in your writing and research skills too.  But (at least what you describe), she doesn't seem to entirely be doubting your skill, or even questioning your advisor-advisee relationship, perhaps just imposing her concern about the competitiveness of the field -- she may very well still be a source for a rec letter and advice in your app process.  

I also think that you can make up for a less prestigious program with clear demonstration of your writing and research skills, with a cogent explanation of what research you want accomplish in school, and with contact with the professors at your chosen university.  I'm sure you're already doing it, but talking to other folks (like previous internship supervisors, etc.) might give you other connections to faculty and other perspectives about the competitiveness of the app field.  Considering universities who are not necessarily ivies, but who still have a good record of job placement, is definitely a worthwhile pursuit if you are concerned about not being from a tier-1 university.

 

Hi @venusofwillendork, thanks for the insight! I have actually emailed my advisor a paper I wrote as the writing sample for my application. Her response was it looked like a catalog essay rather than research paper...I think she is right..I have been writing nothing but press releases and catalog essays in the past few years..these are not meant to be about critical thinking or engaging with discussions in the field...I have been trying to revise my draft based on her comments, which are very helpful, but my progress is slow. I feel I need a lot more time to improve the paper to make it a descent writing sample..I will keep working on it till the last minute...

I am trying to put together a personal statement with my research plans and am also feeling unconfident..but at least this is a start..I will seek my advisor and other professors' guidance when I work out more details...

I do have a few target programs that are not ivies, but it looks like they are also very competitive. My concern is if the competition is so intense at this stage, what is it going to look like when I graduate from a program that is not from tier-1? 

 

Edited September 21, 2020 by onomatopoeia_

[venusofwillendork]

4 hours ago, onomatopoeia_ said:

I do have a few target programs that are not ivies, but it looks like they are also very competitive. My concern is if the competition is so intense at this stage, what is it going to look like when I graduate from a program that is not from tier-1? 

Hey @onomatopoeia_!  I think this ^ is a legitimate concern.  And there are others on this forum who will (vehemently) tell you that it's not worth it, or that the job market is so competitive that you need that top tier school to get anywhere.  My two cents is that going to a relatively good university, but with a strong community and a supportive advisor will do you more good than an overly rigorous and cutthroat ivy.  You'll have the support you need to publish and go to conferences, and to complete the program successfully without burning out.  However, it's definitely something to consider carefully -- and reviewing some other threads in the Art History forums will show a wide range of opinions on success rates and what a "good program" actually looks like.

Whatever you decide, you are in this for the long haul, and it will be a hard and competitive job market.  You should go into this with your eyes open to that, and prepared for what that will entail in your life (having to move, working with low salaries, potentially precarious employment, joining a job market with hundreds of other equally and more qualified applicants).  Being open to something that is an alternative to academia, like work in a library or public history museum is a good thing to keep in mind, as it sounds like you are -- more options means more job prospects to consider in the future.

I wish you luck with your writing sample and research statement!  They're both challenging but important documents. Good luck with your applications!

[onomatopoeia_]

16 hours ago, venusofwillendork said:

Hey @onomatopoeia_!  I think this ^ is a legitimate concern.  And there are others on this forum who will (vehemently) tell you that it's not worth it, or that the job market is so competitive that you need that top tier school to get anywhere.  My two cents is that going to a relatively good university, but with a strong community and a supportive advisor will do you more good than an overly rigorous and cutthroat ivy.  You'll have the support you need to publish and go to conferences, and to complete the program successfully without burning out.  However, it's definitely something to consider carefully -- and reviewing some other threads in the Art History forums will show a wide range of opinions on success rates and what a "good program" actually looks like.

Whatever you decide, you are in this for the long haul, and it will be a hard and competitive job market.  You should go into this with your eyes open to that, and prepared for what that will entail in your life (having to move, working with low salaries, potentially precarious employment, joining a job market with hundreds of other equally and more qualified applicants).  Being open to something that is an alternative to academia, like work in a library or public history museum is a good thing to keep in mind, as it sounds like you are -- more options means more job prospects to consider in the future.

I wish you luck with your writing sample and research statement!  They're both challenging but important documents. Good luck with your applications!

Hi @venusofwillendork, thanks for the great advice!! Sometimes I am worried about over chasing after big names rather than finding a good fit. Like should I change my research interest a little bit to be more relevant to that of the professors in the ivies, or to find a program that would be interested in and support my original plan..I do have a friend who was admitted to a prestigious Ph.D program but ended up hating it after a year and had to transfer to the school where I receive my M.A. He is on tenure track now and is very pleased with his life. 

Thanks again! It's been super helpful. I gained a lot strength in these discussions and am feeling more confident about the application process.

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by onomatopoeia_