Help me plan a road trip through Tennessee

[twiddlethecat]

Hi. I am 33 years old, former director of software engineering. I'm making a career change :) I am looking at all PhD programs in Counseling, Clinical and Marriage and Family Therapy. I have just my undergraduate degree and some schools require a Masters but it seems less common as many provide both Masters/Doctorates. For example I dropped Tennessee State counseling. Here's my list of interesting programs. Can you help me spot missing schools/programs?

University of Tennessee Knoxville
Clinical Psychology
Counseling (advocacy model)

East Tennessee State University

Johnson City

Clinical Psychology

 

University of Memphis

Clinical

Counseling

Need to verify if they take undergraduates

 

Vanderbilt

Nashville 

PhD Psychology Sciences Clinical

Need to verify finances

 

Thank you so much

[ClinPsych21]

Hey, PhD programs don’t require Masters, however, they require pre-requisite courses and/or GRE psychology (it’s may (not) be exempted due to COVID). As long as you can establish those things masters would not be required. An important thing to establish would be relevant research/clinical experience based on the kind of program you’re applying. While work exp may not be explicitly listed, it would be an unspoken requirement. You can check APA to see list of programs. And you can then check specific programs for specific POIs, research and clinical orientation. Hope that helps

[amazingbutternutsquash]

4 hours ago, ClinPsych21 said:

Hey, PhD programs don’t require Masters, however, they require pre-requisite courses and/or GRE psychology (it’s may (not) be exempted due to COVID). As long as you can establish those things masters would not be required. An important thing to establish would be relevant research/clinical experience based on the kind of program you’re applying. While work exp may not be explicitly listed, it would be an unspoken requirement. You can check APA to see list of programs. And you can then check specific programs for specific POIs, research and clinical orientation. Hope that helps

This isn't necessarily true for marriage and family therapy (MFT) programs. I've been at three schools housing them, and I've had friends in all three programs. They all required a MA to even be considered. Some schools giving MFT PhD degrees also house MA programs (e.g., Auburn) but some don't (e.g., UGA). 

OP, how geographically constrained are you? Also, what are your eventual goals? 

 

[ClinPsych21]

Learning something new everyday ☺️

[PsyDuck90]

15 minutes ago, ClinPsych21 said:

Learning something new everyday ☺️

Yeah, counseling, MFT, and LCSW are only license-eligible at the master's level. There is no doctoral level licensure for those fields. That's why, if you want the doctorate but also want a clinical license, you need the actual master's degree. This is separate from clinical psychology and counseling psychology, which are only license-eligible at the doctoral level, although there are a few states that allow for a master's level psychological associate, but those are the minority. 

OP, are you a strong research match for all of these programs? What are your career goals? When applying for doctoral programs, a faculty research match is a must, especially when programs have a mentor model. You are essentially applying to work with a specific faculty member. If you are not a good research match and simply applying for geographic convenience, your chances of acceptance drop significantly (clinical psychology has an 11% acceptance rate overall). A program that bills itself as clinical science (such as Vanderbilt) is especially focused on research. 

[twiddlethecat]

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I have an undergraduate at the University of Colorado Boulder. I started weak but finished with 2.5 years of straight A's/deans list/etc. Summa Cum Laude. Phi Beta Kappa. Final GPA is 3.86. Psych GPA is 3.9. I took my general GREs just before COVID. 154 Verbal, 157 Quant, 4.0 Analytical Writing. Quite unremarkable. I was flying for career and my last undergrad math class was Statistics (which I got an A in) but that was 7 years ago. I graduated 6 years ago. I wrote an undergraduate thesis (35 pages?) in social psychology / gender. It was published and it is actually getting cited. I also have a field placement internship at a homeless and runaway youth shelter. I transitioned to an employment position at the end. It was about 6 months. I left to make more money, $13/hr was not cutting it when I don't have family. Today, I am a software architect looking to put it rest. I created & currently lead a community philosophy club, which is actually an intimacy & friendship group in disguise. However the past 6 years were rising in software to the director level. 

I am interested in clinical practice grounded in a strong research foundation. I'd like the freedom to teach, especially if I could teach new therapists someday. I am changing careers at 33, this one is meant to be "until the end" so I want to make the additional time (and cost?) sacrifice to get the PhD. I strongly see myself working with the public.

In software I directed in a large organization and also opened my own business. I'd like to be at PhD level to be a subject matter expert as I see the theoretical pinnings of psychology quite useful if not a pure requirements if I were to help operate or build my own clinic. I like the clinical focus of clinical psychology. I am open to those programs. I have a slight preference for counseling psychology. Many people have different interpretations, but I get the gestalt that clinical psychologists are more likely to appear in hospitals, critical treatment centers, etc. as psychometric evaluators, emergency staff, or tending to severe psychological conditions like psychosis, etc. Of course this is not a hard-set rule. I have gathered that counseling psychology is more about supporting individuals be healthy and transition through normal life events, like grief, university, vocation, etc. I would like to start my journey out of school by mostly seeing patients and supporting them, especially if long-term care and stable relationship is needed for their improvement.

I am interested in working with suicidal youth & adults, drug and alcohol abuse, sobriety maintenance, dysfunction or distress from sexual behaviors, bipolar, borderline, trauma survivors, male eating disorders, etc. I know that is broad but I could see myself doing any of these. I am not as interested in psychosis, schizophrenia, cognitive impairment, offenders, social justice issues, etc. Sorry "etc." doesn't mean anything but I use it anyway. I am looking at faculty members and reading papers they publish to prepare. I understand the relationship and dynamic. This is about creating original research and contribution together under their lead. We need to both be in it together. 

Finally I have 3 cats and no kids. It's too cold here in Michigan. I have no roots. My lease is up in March. I'm currently on a road trip through Nashville, Knoxville, Memphis, Asheville, Charlotte, and more of North Carolina. I am interested in these states as the universities have many in-state options for PhDs in Counseling/Clinical (I'm thinking of out of state tuition), along with affordable stand-alone dwellings for housing. I would like to be in a stand alone dwelling as I operate a pro audio studio on the weekends. It is warmer down here & I have a side interest of music and enjoy an interplay between liberal/conservative dynamics. Nashville is amazing but the public university requires a masters which I don't have and Vanderbilt sounds a little too research-heavy (and I am worried about the finances of a private institution). I have been on my own for over a decade so I need to do this and pay my bills. Nobody's going to pay them for me, and when I get out of school, my debt is owned. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by twiddlethecat

[twiddlethecat]

I forgot to add that I am interested in therapy for software engineers, scrum masters, managers & directors. There is a large population of them, they make enough money to buy my services, and they are very stressed & they need help. I know because I've lived that life and managed the careers of those who needed help. This population will only continue to grow and as an insider of software for fifteen years a good majority are really struggling. I can't give to the software community by writing code or creating diagrams. I need to operate at the level of the human being. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by twiddlethecat

[amazingbutternutsquash]

Do you have any research experience? 

[PsyDuck90]

Also, just as an added FYI, the vast majority of PhD programs in clinical or counseling psychology are fully funded with tuition remission and a stipend. Your opportunity costs in that you are quitting your full time software job are definitely considered a financial loss, but cost of tuition is irrelevant for most programs. You typically serve as a teaching, research, or graduate assistant (or a combination of all the above) in exchange for the financial compensation. 

While there are some theoretical underpinnings that differ between counseling psychology and clinical psychology, the license is the same and the differences have really disappeared over the years.

I will also say that your research interests are very broad. I would spend some time really thinking about what you want to focus on (it's ok if your work shifts later), and try to get some research experience within that specific content area. Admissions committees and PIs want to see a clear, thought out process of what you have done and what you want to do. Even if it isn't a traditional path. Having such a broad range of interests can actually work against you. 

[Samantha123]

1 hour ago, twiddlethecat said:

Thanks for the interesting discussion. I have an undergraduate at the University of Colorado Boulder. I started weak but finished with 2.5 years of straight A's/deans list/etc. Summa Cum Laude. Phi Beta Kappa. Final GPA is 3.86. Psych GPA is 3.9. I took my general GREs just before COVID. 154 Verbal, 157 Quant, 4.0 Analytical Writing. Quite unremarkable. I was flying for career and my last undergrad math class was Statistics (which I got an A in) but that was 7 years ago. I graduated 6 years ago. I wrote an undergraduate thesis (35 pages?) in social psychology / gender. It was published and it is actually getting cited. I also have a field placement internship at a homeless and runaway youth shelter. I transitioned to an employment position at the end. It was about 6 months. I left to make more money, $13/hr was not cutting it when I don't have family. Today, I am a software architect looking to put it rest. I created & currently lead a community philosophy club, which is actually an intimacy & friendship group in disguise. However the past 6 years were rising in software to the director level. 

I am interested in clinical practice grounded in a strong research foundation. I'd like the freedom to teach, especially if I could teach new therapists someday. I am changing careers at 33, this one is meant to be "until the end" so I want to make the additional time (and cost?) sacrifice to get the PhD. I strongly see myself working with the public.

In software I directed in a large organization and also opened my own business. I'd like to be at PhD level to be a subject matter expert as I see the theoretical pinnings of psychology quite useful if not a pure requirements if I were to help operate or build my own clinic. I like the clinical focus of clinical psychology. I am open to those programs. I have a slight preference for counseling psychology. Many people have different interpretations, but I get the gestalt that clinical psychologists are more likely to appear in hospitals, critical treatment centers, etc. as psychometric evaluators, emergency staff, or tending to severe psychological conditions like psychosis, etc. Of course this is not a hard-set rule. I have gathered that counseling psychology is more about supporting individuals be healthy and transition through normal life events, like grief, university, vocation, etc. I would like to start my journey out of school by mostly seeing patients and supporting them, especially if long-term care and stable relationship is needed for their improvement.

I am interested in working with suicidal youth & adults, drug and alcohol abuse, sobriety maintenance, dysfunction or distress from sexual behaviors, bipolar, borderline, trauma survivors, male eating disorders, etc. I know that is broad but I could see myself doing any of these. I am not as interested in psychosis, schizophrenia, cognitive impairment, offenders, social justice issues, etc. Sorry "etc." doesn't mean anything but I use it anyway. I am looking at faculty members and reading papers they publish to prepare. I understand the relationship and dynamic. This is about creating original research and contribution together under their lead. We need to both be in it together. 

Finally I have 3 cats and no kids. It's too cold here in Michigan. I have no roots. My lease is up in March. I'm currently on a road trip through Nashville, Knoxville, Memphis, Asheville, Charlotte, and more of North Carolina. I am interested in these states as the universities have many in-state options for PhDs in Counseling/Clinical (I'm thinking of out of state tuition), along with affordable stand-alone dwellings for housing. I would like to be in a stand alone dwelling as I operate a pro audio studio on the weekends. It is warmer down here & I have a side interest of music and enjoy an interplay between liberal/conservative dynamics. Nashville is amazing but the public university requires a masters which I don't have and Vanderbilt sounds a little too research-heavy (and I am worried about the finances of a private institution). I have been on my own for over a decade so I need to do this and pay my bills. Nobody's going to pay them for me, and when I get out of school, my debt is owned. 

I hear you have a lot of enthusiasm for the field but I might invite you to consider that the categories you've listed are not mutually exclusive with each other - for example, trauma survivors can experience hearing voices as a response to their trauma.

[twiddlethecat]

3 hours ago, PsyDuck90 said:

Also, just as an added FYI, the vast majority of PhD programs in clinical or counseling psychology are fully funded with tuition remission and a stipend. Your opportunity costs in that you are quitting your full time software job are definitely considered a financial loss, but cost of tuition is irrelevant for most programs. You typically serve as a teaching, research, or graduate assistant (or a combination of all the above) in exchange for the financial compensation. 

While there are some theoretical underpinnings that differ between counseling psychology and clinical psychology, the license is the same and the differences have really disappeared over the years.

I will also say that your research interests are very broad. I would spend some time really thinking about what you want to focus on (it's ok if your work shifts later), and try to get some research experience within that specific content area. Admissions committees and PIs want to see a clear, thought out process of what you have done and what you want to do. Even if it isn't a traditional path. Having such a broad range of interests can actually work against you. 

Excellent, thank you so much! How should I narrow? Maybe I find some programs and look at overlap, and then focus on the ones that are the best fit and take a path forward?

3 hours ago, Samantha123 said:

I hear you have a lot of enthusiasm for the field but I might invite you to consider that the categories you've listed are not mutually exclusive with each other - for example, trauma survivors can experience hearing voices as a response to their trauma.

I think it is about the level or degree of functioning. 

[PsyDuck90]

9 minutes ago, twiddlethecat said:

Excellent, thank you so much! How should I narrow? Maybe I find some programs and look at overlap, and then focus on the ones that are the best fit and take a path forward?

Yes, find faculty that are doing research in areas on interest and apply to those people. The easiest thing to do is to find (recent) articles of interest and find out where those faculty are located. Do you have any research experience? 

[SocDevMum]

On 1/1/2021 at 3:20 PM, twiddlethecat said:

I am interested in working with suicidal youth & adults, drug and alcohol abuse, sobriety maintenance, dysfunction or distress from sexual behaviors, bipolar, borderline, trauma survivors, male eating disorders, etc. I know that is broad but I could see myself doing any of these. I am not as interested in psychosis, schizophrenia, cognitive impairment, offenders, social justice issues, etc

I would second, this is both very broad, and not mutually exclusive.  "Social Justice issues" are at the core of many counseling and clinical programs, especially if you want to talk about addiction, trauma, and other socially-developed dysfunctions.  For example, POC tech workers have a different experience than their white counterparts; you can't address the work stressors without addressing the cultural and social influences in which they function.  Something to think about as you work through papers and such...

I understand the desire for a PhD program - I am also a 2nd career person.  However, without more research experience than you've listed here, and a more narrow field of focus, you may find that it is wiser for you to pursue a Masters first. This would allow you to kill 2 birds with 1 stone - gain considerably more research experiences, and narrow down exactly what you are interested in.  Clinical programs are notoriously the most competitive PhD programs out there, and an applicant with too broad of interests and limited actual experience is going to struggle to get interviews.