2023 Creative Writing MFA Applicants Forum

[treaux]

Sorry OSU folks, hoping you get better news from other programs soon. 

I keep telling myself that by two weeks from today, I'll probably have heard back from at least one school ... And then by two weeks after that, I'll probably have heard from at least a few schools ... And hopefully that can keep me sated until two weeks after that ... and so on and so forth. The waiting game is cruel!  

[jjooeeyy]

14 minutes ago, denner said:

What happens next is not that the first rejection lowers Norwood’s estimation of his chances for the remaining schools. This estimation won’t be affected by new data.

It happens every year. 

The debate, I suppose, really is whether a blissful ignorance is better than reality. I don’t know, but anyone resolving to prefer blissful ignorance should probably be drinking all day.

can i ask why you post on here? i'm not really sure how it's rational to waste energy making comments like this.

[flowerpot]

49 minutes ago, denner said:

“I've been especially fixated these last few days on OSU, which I also applied to last app cycle and, by this time that year, had already rejected me. This collection of loosely related facts makes my brain go like this: Wow! It must mean they love me! This is my year! “ - @Norwood on Monday

“Welp, one down, 11 to go.” - @Norwood three days later.

 

What happens next is not that the first rejection lowers Norwood’s estimation of his chances for the remaining schools. This estimation won’t be affected by new data.

It happens every year. 

The debate, I suppose, really is whether a blissful ignorance is better than reality. I don’t know, but anyone resolving to prefer blissful ignorance should probably be drinking all day.

What is the matter with you?

[freakgods]

This is my first post in this thread and I'm just dropping in to say that no one should let a butt-hurt pessimist ruin this experience for them. This is an amazing moment for all of us. We should ask ourselves if some replies are actually helpful, or if the user posting is just an over-thinker who has to make everyone around them miserable to make themself feel big. Let people have hope. No one gets anywhere by wallowing in self-pity and bitterness.

That being said, I hope everyone comes out of the other side of this process with an optimism for their future--acceptance or not. You are all brave for putting yourselves out there! You are writers, maintaining a very old tradition with a lot of depth and power. Celebrate that, ignore the perpetual negativity, and know that your worth is not defined by any school's decision. Keep writing, everyone! Best of luck

Edited January 26, 2023 by freakgods
Typo

[maz]

that person is a troll who watches and keeps records of everything people say so they can make those little posts and has been doing it for years if you've looked at older versions of the forum. every so often they change their username. they aren't actually interested in discussion, they just come up with comments they think will get people the most riled up. it's their hobby, best to ignore!

Edited January 26, 2023 by maz

[c_eddy]

Sending positive vibes everyone's way.

Even replying to as****** like the one above gives them some weirdo validation. If people ignore him I'm sure he'll just keep talking to himself or make another account so that at least someone notices him lol 

Enjoy your Thursday everybody ? 

[Norwood]

Sorry to feed the very obvious troll, but if the seal's been broken, I may as well add this: the most annoying thing about the section of my post this guy keeps quoting as "proof" that I'm delusional about my chances of getting in anywhere (weird thing for a guy to make himself the self-appointed arbiter of, but ok!) is that in the very next sentence I spell out how unlikely my chances are:

On 1/23/2023 at 10:58 AM, Norwood said:

It couldn't be that the review is taking longer this year/the academic calendar is a bit different this time/that they're going to cut me from their final list anyway/any other possible (and much more statistically probable) negative outcome. 

Anyway, it's especially irksome to me, a guy on a writing forum, because it speaks to a level of reading comprehension that can only mean one of two things: either a) this guy couldn't even spell MFA, let alone apply to one, and shouldn't be posting here or b) this guy's sincere and, irony of ironies, is blissfully ignorant of the fact that he reads at a third grade level. If you feel like joining the conversation, Denner, I'd love to know which it is! 

[DayOld711Pizza]

Hey y’all

 

I hope the waiting isn’t too excruciating for everyone! I’m definitely starting to feel it. 
 

Last year I applied to five schools and got soundly rejected. This year I’m applying to: Iowa, Miami, Vanderbilt, St Louis, and Michigan. It is my second time applying and I’m excited because my writing samples are much stronger than last year’s and I feel confident that I have a fighting chance this time around. Last year I was more like, “pwease take pity on me and accept me” ayayay.
 

I’ve been out of school since 2019 and just been working menial labor jobs since then, because I don’t want to waste time and money in school if it’s not in writing, and I’m really hoping this year is the year I escape the fatigue and monotony of a blue collar life! Fingers crossed!
 

 

[Norwood]

1 hour ago, shmenner said:

“ that can only mean one of two things: either a) this guy couldn't even spell MFA, let alone apply to one, and shouldn't be posting here or b) this guy's sincere and, irony of ironies, is blissfully ignorant of the fact that he reads at a third grade level. If you feel like joining the conversation, Denner, I'd love to know which it is!” - @Norwood

I would love to join the conversation and advise which one it is.

You say a bad speller or writer should not be posting. That's a fresh perspective. Some believe that the most illiterate among us should not delay any posting until they are good enough. More to the point, you ask for a self assessment  on the merits of my writing, but that's hard to give.

It’s part of the problem with MFA applications.  @lanadelreystan says admission is entirely subjective. But she isn't a veteran. The veterans in the MFA world and occasionally adcoms themselves say that 80% of writing samples to fully funded programs are rejected after one page. In other words, you can manifest an absence of objective merit that quickly. It will usually take the form of avoiding imagery, giving abstractions and explanations, or writing in an outline form without detail or precision. The applicant has no good way to figure out whether he is among this 80%. The upshot is frustrating: people apply year after year getting rejected everywhere, unaware they are already doomed for this year. What’s the quote? “He did not know that it was already behind him.”   

If I myself am in the 80%, I certainly would not know it, so I can’t declare myself any better. Bottom line, both a) and b) are possible.

Joined 1 hour ago. First post is rushing to Denner's defense. Post is written in the exact same voice as all of Denner's other posts. Denner Shmenner. Hmm, nice try bud, but you ain't slick! Kindly fuck off. 

[clil09]

*grabs popcorn*

[asmodeo]

Hi all,

Long-time lurker, first-time poster. I applied for the first time last year to eight “top-tier” fully-funded schools (fiction), was waitlisted for three, and accepted at one, where I’m currently studying. I don’t have an English Literature or even a Humanities-related degree, was two years out from undergrad, and was applying from outside the United States.

There are a few select areas where the troll’s cynicism is not only warranted, but potentially helpful. He’s correct that many do not recommend a non-funded program. I strongly recommend everyone carefully consider the level of debt they’re willing to accrue for a Creative Writing degree, keeping in mind the costs of healthcare, moving, and costs of living, as well as the reality of adjuncting and traditional publication. On average, people make less post-MFA than they did before. These aren't considerations that anyone can make for you, and program rankings are incredibly subjective and individualized. (Karen Russell and Mat Johnson, for example, studied at Columbia, and have both been highly successful in publishing and teaching).

His attitude towards acceptance and the fellow applicants on this forum, however, strikes me as extremely misguided. The MFA experience is, fundamentally, one of community. If money and time are all you want from a program, you’re probably better off with the stock market, because I’m not rich in either. Workshop is the heart of the MFA. Reading others’ work, generously, providing feedback that aims to comprehend the beating heart of a story, and offering suggestions that might allow the author to accomplish their vision for the story with even greater strength and nuance. Workshop is also a process of humility. Of accepting feedback, but also accepting that your vision for the story may be radically different from the story you accomplished on the page.

I respect the troll’s knowledge. He is clearly well-researched on a process that lacks transparency and accessible information, and can often feel like an elaborate game of telephone. He could be, and sometimes is, a resource for newcomers to the process. However, due to the stark lack of generosity or curiosity he displays towards other applicants on this forum, I’m not sure I’d want to work with him in a cohort.

My application pieces were the first two literary short stories I’d ever written. One was about theoretical physics and the other about TikTok. Both would handily fail his New Yorker test. I have no doubt that he would have told me last year not to bother applying, that I was delusional. I don’t have any illusions about my prospects of publication post-MFA. Getting an agent or a manuscript accepted is unlikely even for writers further along than I am. But I believed I could get into a fully-funded MFA, and (with luck) I did. I have to believe—or at least try to believe—I can do the rest, too, if I’m to have any chance of accomplishing anything.

The troll loves to cite statistics. He refers constantly to the odds of winning the Powerball/lottery. These are statistically random and independent events. Yet when it comes to browbeating strangers, suddenly he understands that MFA acceptance isn’t statistically random or independent, stating that if you’ve been rejected from one school, it’s irrational to hope for acceptance to any others. (This strikes me as an unhelpful heuristic—I was rejected before I was waitlisted, etc. Even the most wildly successful applicants who are accepted almost across the board might receive their one or two rejections first). But above all, what I take issue with is how he treats the vulnerability and emotional candidness of posters on this forum as foolishness or ignorance, and mistakes lashing out at others for realism or honesty.

I don’t deny him his pessimism. The application process is brutal—we write pieces revealing ourselves in our most vulnerable states, send them off to a committee of strangers, and wait for them to judge, in a line or two, whether we are worthy. There is no control or transparency in this system. We all reach for the attitudes that allow us to cope with uncertainty, be that hope or nihilism. Neither will guarantee a spot at a program.

However: writing is a process of hope. Of iterative, incremental improvement. Of beating your head against the page until the breakthrough hits you in the moment your guard is down. We all know this process, and wish it was easier. Or at least more linear. We also know that beating down others won’t make words miraculously appear on the page.

I’d recommend everyone take a look at Mat Johnson’s candid thread about the MFA acceptance process, and the letter from Alex Parsons on the UH website (urls below). In Parson’s words: “What am I hoping for? A fresh impression. A glimpse of the writer’s talent and perception and intellect that gives the work a vivid, memorable quality. An original sensibility or means of expression, or subject. It might be the angle from which the writer looks at other people is unusual; it might be a lapidary sense for the facet and fit of words; it might be the energy or urgency to the storytelling coiled in the sentences and similes. But whatever it is, it is yours.”

I wish everyone here the best this cycle, and if you have any questions for a current MFA student, please feel free to ask and I’ll do my best to respond.

https://uh.edu/class/english/programs/graduate/creative-writing/prospective-students/cheat-sheet/
https://twitter.com/mat_johnson/status/1592156356886532099

[treaux]

Damn. Mic drop. 

In all seriousness, thank you so much, @asmodeo! I hadn't seen the Mat Johnson thread or the Alex Parsons letter, and they were both really illuminating reads. This part from the Parsons is crazy:

We score each application on a scale of 1-5, with 5 as the best. Generally you need to score a perfect 15 to be admitted, which is to say you impressed a minimum of three faculty members.

Just shows how insanely competitive and subjective the process is. I mean, even I wouldn't rate my writing a 5/5, lol.

If you don't mind sharing, what eight schools did you apply to? 

[Leeannitha]

For UMass Amherst applicants: people on Draft have received emails to set up funding interviews. Check for an email during the last couple days. Not sure if or how many more are going out or if only people asked to interview end up getting in…(anyone know about this???) I did not get an email.

[treaux]

4 minutes ago, Leeannitha said:

For UMass Amherst applicants: people on Draft have received emails to set up funding interviews. Check for an email during the last couple days. Not sure if or how many more are going out or if only people asked to interview end up getting in…(anyone know about this???) I did not get an email.

Someone posted that they were notified about a Pitt interview, too. Just FYI in case anyone applied. 

[Leeannitha]

If anyone wants to keep up with decisions posted on gradcafe they are listed separately:

https://www.thegradcafe.com/survey/?per_page=20&q=Creative+writing&institution=&program=&degree=MFA&season=F23

[asmodeo]

8 hours ago, treaux said:

Damn. Mic drop. 

In all seriousness, thank you so much, @asmodeo! I hadn't seen the Mat Johnson thread or the Alex Parsons letter, and they were both really illuminating reads. This part from the Parsons is crazy:

We score each application on a scale of 1-5, with 5 as the best. Generally you need to score a perfect 15 to be admitted, which is to say you impressed a minimum of three faculty members.

Just shows how insanely competitive and subjective the process is. I mean, even I wouldn't rate my writing a 5/5, lol.

If you don't mind sharing, what eight schools did you apply to? 

I applied to WUSTL, MI, WI, UMD, UVA, UO, MN, and Cornell. There were highly personal reasons for each program, but overall as a guiding principle, I prioritized faculty whose work aligned with my aesthetics, or programs from which writers whose work I love most graduated from. I also eliminated any program where there was unequal funding (i.e. IWW, UMass Amherst, NYU, etc.), a separate application for funding, an unusually low acceptance-to-applicant ratio (Vandy, JHU, etc.) or no teaching (Michner). I also cut out any program that doesn’t provide healthcare or are known for toxicity, or didn’t offer enough stipend to cover the cost of living.

In undergrad, I made the mistake of going to a prestigious school just to prove I could, and it wasn’t a good experience. For the MFA, I was deliberate in only applying to programs that were a good fit. If I couldn’t see myself realistically accepting an offer, no matter how prestigious, (i.e. IWW), I didn’t apply.

To be honest, my writing wasn’t (and isn’t) 5/5, either. I had no idea of the conventional aims of an opening paragraph, what literary writers aim for with a first-person vocal performance piece, etc. Some programs were willing to overlook that; others not. The student slush readers at MI probably didn’t get past my unfortunate opening paragraph. But the MFA is (ideally) designed to bring you closer to your own aesthetic and style, your voice as a writer. Mat mentions that successful applicants demonstrate promise as well as room to learn—i.e., that they'd benefit from the program—but I imagine every professor/committee has their own philosophy or standard.

 

[notebook]

Just received notification from Arkansas that I've advanced to Round 2. 

[flowerpot]

2 minutes ago, notebook said:

Just received notification from Arkansas that I've advanced to Round 2. 

Congratulations! I just got the same.

I also applied to Pitt – knowing that someone out there got an interview request and I haven't heard anything yet is wracking these nerves. But it's great to be going into the weekend with some positive news.

[lanadelreystan]

22 hours ago, asmodeo said:

I applied to WUSTL, MI, WI, UMD, UVA, UO, MN, and Cornell. There were highly personal reasons for each program, but overall as a guiding principle, I prioritized faculty whose work aligned with my aesthetics, or programs from which writers whose work I love most graduated from. I also eliminated any program where there was unequal funding (i.e. IWW, UMass Amherst, NYU, etc.), a separate application for funding, an unusually low acceptance-to-applicant ratio (Vandy, JHU, etc.) or no teaching (Michner). I also cut out any program that doesn’t provide healthcare or are known for toxicity, or didn’t offer enough stipend to cover the cost of living.

In undergrad, I made the mistake of going to a prestigious school just to prove I could, and it wasn’t a good experience. For the MFA, I was deliberate in only applying to programs that were a good fit. If I couldn’t see myself realistically accepting an offer, no matter how prestigious, (i.e. IWW), I didn’t apply.

To be honest, my writing wasn’t (and isn’t) 5/5, either. I had no idea of the conventional aims of an opening paragraph, what literary writers aim for with a first-person vocal performance piece, etc. Some programs were willing to overlook that; others not. The student slush readers at MI probably didn’t get past my unfortunate opening paragraph. But the MFA is (ideally) designed to bring you closer to your own aesthetic and style, your voice as a writer. Mat mentions that successful applicants demonstrate promise as well as room to learn—i.e., that they'd benefit from the program—but I imagine every professor/committee has their own philosophy or standard.

 

Which university is MI? And they have MFA students reading and deciding on the first round of applicants? I've never heard of this! I was always assuming all programs had a small team of faculty members reading through applications, especially based on what I've heard from program faculty that I've spoken with

[asmodeo]

5 hours ago, lanadelreystan said:

Which university is MI? And they have MFA students reading and deciding on the first round of applicants? I've never heard of this! I was always assuming all programs had a small team of faculty members reading through applications, especially based on what I've heard from program faculty that I've spoken with

Oops—MI is my shorthand for University of Michigan/Hellen Zell Writer’s Program!

iirc, Michigan is one of the only programs that offers tiered rejections—they send a different rejection to the top 15-20% of their (large) applicant pool. I also recall hearing about a tiered reading system, where students do the first round of reading and pass on an (unknown) percentage to the faculty. (Anyone who knows/remembers differently, please clarify!)

I do know for certain that WUSTL has had grad students read through applications in the recent past, as I spoke with a recent WUSTL grad who’d done it. Not sure if this is current, if that means tiered reading, or if the faculty read through everything as well. I wouldn't rule out the latter.

Edited January 28, 2023 by asmodeo

[lanadelreystan]

4 minutes ago, asmodeo said:

Oops—MI is my shorthand for University of Michigan/Hellen Zell Writer’s Program!

iirc, Michigan is one of the only programs that offers tiered rejections—they send a different rejection to the top 15-20% of their (large) applicant pool. I also recall a tiered reading system, where students do the first round of reading and pass on that top percentage to the faculty. (Anyone who knows/remembers differently, please clarify!)

I do know for certain that WUSTL has had grad students read through applications in the recent past, as I spoke with a recent WUSTL grad who’d done it. Not sure if this is current, if that means tiered reading, or if the faculty read through everything as well. I wouldn't rule out the latter.

Oh, yikes... That kind of puts me off a little. Shouldn't faculty be making the decisions from beginning to end? Not sure how I feel about currently enrolled MFA students being able to just toss my app before it hits a faculty member's eyes. I was one of the top 12% of applicants to UMich last cycle; I remember getting that email!

[asmodeo]

1 minute ago, lanadelreystan said:

Oh, yikes... That kind of puts me off a little. Shouldn't faculty be making the decisions from beginning to end? Not sure how I feel about currently enrolled MFA students being able to just toss my app before it hits a faculty member's eyes. I was one of the top 12% of applicants to UMich last cycle; I remember getting that email!

Oh nice, congrats!! Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, they receive a staggering number of applications. (That third year of funding brings all the girls to the yard, etc). On the other, I definitely agree with you—as a student, I know I don't have the sense for potential that someone who's made these decisions before would have.

It is possible I remember incorrectly and UMich has faculty doing the first tier of reading as well. IWW claims to have two separate faculty (or associate faculty) members read each application, and they receive the most applicants by a long shot.

 

[treaux]

How's everyone feeling this weekend? Anyone doing anything fun to distract themselves from the anticipation and dread? 

[Leeannitha]

2 hours ago, asmodeo said:

Oh nice, congrats!! Yeah, I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, they receive a staggering number of applications. (That third year of funding brings all the girls to the yard, etc). On the other, I definitely agree with you—as a student, I know I don't have the sense for potential that someone who's made these decisions before would have.

It is possible I remember incorrectly and UMich has faculty doing the first tier of reading as well. IWW claims to have two separate faculty (or associate faculty) members read each application, and they receive the most applicants by a long shot.

 

IWW has 2nd year MFA students read the pieces first and say which ones they recommend. The director reads every piece regardless of the slush reader’s scoring. Then faculty read the stronger pieces and decide. I think this is standard as it is also the case at Michener I believe. I know this because one of my recommenders did this at Iowa. At least in that case the director may catch something they like that the slush reader did not.

[notebook]

5 hours ago, treaux said:

How's everyone feeling this weekend? Anyone doing anything fun to distract themselves from the anticipation and dread? 

Feeling like pure shite, my neighbor and I got into a screaming match and she tried to throw down with me. i swerved because im sure as hell not about to fight a 60 year old woman. im trying to go to grad school not get charged for murder. 

Other than that im doing p well, just started reading a new book