Transferring to program I turned down?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi there,

I'm currently a 1-st year PhD student. I was very lucky to get into all three of the schools I applied to last year.

School A was my original dream school, or so I thought. I had been planning on applying since junior year of college...there were just so many people there whose research touched on what I thought were really interesting topics. The diversity of work here on so many themes touching on my research tangentially was mind-blowing.

School B was where the guy who literally (co-)wrote the book that founded the discipline I want to get into worked.

School C was home to a rigourous program with an intermediate number of people whose work was more relevant to my own. A very senior researcher in my field and an up-and-coming young professor were ready to take me under their wing on a joint project.

In the end, I ended up choosing School A--people told me to go with my original feeling. To be honest, I wanted a change of climate and scenery, and considering I was having so much trouble deciding among the three schools (because they all seemed so good), I thought the weather would be the tie-breaker.

I have now realized that there are several obstacles here that will slow my progress toward my PhD. For one, the funding climate is worse than I thought. In order to work summer funding, I'll basically be TA'ing full time, leaving little time for research. The teaching course is pretty onerous now, too, while at School C I would've taught only one third as often. For some reason I thought grad school was about taking classes, when it's more about research (even in the first year!). Regardless, the teaching load is getting in the way of both.

Secondly, I had a totally flawed conception of how research occurred in grad school--I really thought I could leverage the interests of all the different people in this department and cobble it together into a dissertation. Obviously, that was naive: you go into someone's lab and work your butt off there. You better be ready to be interested 100% in your adviser's work. I've come to realize that I have no idea whose lab I would be willing to work in for five or six years--lots of vaguely interesting stuff here, but is it stuff I could be obsessed about enough to make a contribution? I doubt it. Of the two professors whose work I was most interested in here, one seems to have moved on to other projects, and another is completely unavailable to students. The third professor (a good friend and mentor of one of the professors in School B.) is in another department, but might be available as an advisor. Anyway, since I entered grad school at the beginning of the semester, I've really developed more of an idea of what I want to specialize in, and I realize that the two professors interested in me at School B were my best ticket to a research program.

Given these considerations, I want to transfer pretty bad. What should I do? Is it worth emailing those professors at School B? Last time around, they remarked to me in person how impressive they thought my application was, and told me they accepted me on the spot after my interview. Would this make it more likely that they'll accept me again?

Edited October 23, 2010 by Anonymous Coward

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry for the long rant, I've only slept like 90 minutes in the past 3 days, so I'm being a bit incoherent here. I noticed I made some typos--I wrote 'School B' where I meant 'School C' (school B's out of the picture)

School C is the program I'm looking to transfer to.

[StrangeLight]

i don't think transferring really happens in graduate school. you can reapply to school C this cycle but you'd be starting over. maybe they'd take some of the credits you've already done, but you need to re-enter the admissions cycle. and you've gone from being a candidate who they wanted right away to one that is trying to escape a top program after 1 semester. you can't just submit the same application again either. well, you can, but you shouldn't. you'll need to include your graduate transcript at this new school and potentially some LORs from people at your current program (though not necessarily... you could re-solicit your old LORs). but you'll need to explain somewhere (briefly in your SOP or as an addendum to your application) why you want to jump ship at school A and why that SHOULDN'T be seen as a sign that you're unprepared for grad school.

you'll need to convince them that funding and research opportunities are why you want to go to school C now, not that you didn't really understand what research was going to be like or that it's too hard to teach so much. you'll have to be delicate with your language when you explain your circumstances.

people feel like they made the wrong choice in picking graduate schools all the time. it happens. you're not alone. they either make it work where they are or they reapply. the danger here is that school C may not give you the same offer a second time around. the funding package might not be as good. the people you wanted to work with might not have space for you in their labs or as their advisees anymore. you'll need to contact them and ask them (confidentially) if they would take you on in the coming year were you to reapply.

are you going for a PhD or a combined MA/PhD? if it's the latter, my suggestion is to stick it out at school A for the MA and then apply to new schools for the PhD portion. that's a lot more common and it would only be one more year at the place that isn't quite fitting for you.

also, it's early. very, very early. you're two months into your first semester of graduate school. there is the potential to get excited about other projects you hadn't considered working on last year. and TAing will get easier and less time consuming the more experience with it you acquire. so calm down. take a deep breath. meet with your graduate director and tell him/her all of your feelings. everything. spill the beans about the teaching seeming too time consuming, about the research not functioning the way you envisioned. the director of grad studies is there to help you and advise you with this stuff. they can help make your current situation work for you.

the short answer is, you CAN'T transfer to school C between now and next semester. grad school doesn't work the same way that undergrad does. the earliest you could move there is next year, if you apply for their program this year. so you've got at least a full year at school A. try to relax, talk to counselors and your GS, and see if you can make school A work for you. it sounds like a great program and the only real problem is that you didn't really know what the work type or schedule was going to be like yet. it happens to all of us. we're all a little surprised at exactly how exhausting and time-consuming this stuff is. that part of it won't be any different at school C. what will be different is whatever your research project is, but again... to make it long-term as an academic, you'll need to work on more than one topic in your career. see if you can find a way to make your options at school A work. i promise that school C won't be nearly as different as you're hoping it will be. talk to your GS.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks!

I'm OK with starting over--I can really see myself being stuck here for 6 or 7 years (with minimal funding after year 4), without getting my PhD, and distracted by teaching. Whereas there I got the sense that I was ready to go on projects.

The teaching load/funding isn't the only problem that I feel could slow me down here. I see other people in my cohort have already staked out labs and projects and advisors, and here I am, not really 100% invested in any of the projects currently going on in my department. And this is also connected to the problem of funding: summer funding is dependent on joining a lab that just so happens to have resources for you, but if not, people scramble for summer TA ships or just go home for the summer!

In another department here, there is one professor whose research is similar to the work of one of the professors at school C (they collaborate very often), but the advantage is that at school C I would have been able to work on a collaborative project between that professor and another, very well-respected senior professor as a co-advisee. By working between them, I would have had a chance to stake out a research question even more aligned with my interests. I don't have that kind of opportunity here, and choosing an advisor outside of the department, while possible, makes things more difficult. This semester I've already found myself taking most of my classes outside of my department, and wondering if I can even convince them to let those classes count instead of in-department classes!

Lastly, I've come to realize that the professors in my department have staked out some controversial positions with which I'm not sure I want to be associated. There seems to be a bit more polemicizing going on here than I'm interested in participating in. School C is mostly agnostic in this debate, and seems like a good middle ground.

As far as my program's degree, they admit only people interested in pursuing the PhD, but they give MS's to everyone who completes the second year and what is essentially a master's thesis. Does that change things?

Do you think I'd need letters from people at my present school if I applied for this cycle? Applications are due at the end of December, at which point I'll only have known the professors at my present school for less than three months.

Edited October 23, 2010 by Anonymous Coward

[StrangeLight]

The teaching load/funding isn't the only problem that I feel could slow me down here. I see other people in my cohort have already staked out labs and projects and advisors, and here I am, not really 100% invested in any of the projects currently going on in my department. And this is also connected to the problem of funding: summer funding is dependent on joining a lab that just so happens to have resources for you, but if not, people scramble for summer TA ships or just go home for the summer!

this happens everywhere in every field. in my own program, you work for 8 months but can choose to be paid over 8 months or 12. the people that pick 12 months really skimp and the people that pick 8 months get summer jobs at the gap. it's far from ideal but it's also far from unusual at many schools in many fields. make doubly sure that this won't be the same problem at school C before you let people at school A know that you're thinking of moving on. it's possible to leave but you want to do it without burning any bridges, so other than talking to your graduate director, you don't want to bring up the switch until you're sure you want to try to make it.

In another department here, there is one professor whose research is similar to the work of one of the professors at school C (they collaborate very often), but the advantage is that at school C I would have been able to work on a collaborative project between that professor and another, very well-respected senior professor as a co-advisee. By working between them, I would have had a chance to stake out a research question even more aligned with my interests. I don't have that kind of opportunity here, and choosing an advisor outside of the department, while possible, makes things more difficult. This semester I've already found myself taking most of my classes outside of my department, and wondering if I can even convince them to let those classes count instead of in-department classes!

what about switching departments? this is a lot easier than switching schools. if all your classes and your potential advisor are in another department, why not work there? also, do you KNOW that you could build your own project using those two scholars at school C? have they both confirmed this to you? or will you arrive at school C only to be told you need to pick one of the advisors and you'll have to write whatever they tell you to (which admittedly is still a step up, because it's closer to your interests anyway)? talk to them both about your concerns once you've talked to your grad director. make absolutely sure that school C will actually be different from school A in the ways you think they might be.

Lastly, I've come to realize that the professors in my department have staked out some controversial positions with which I'm not sure I want to be associated. There seems to be a bit more polemicizing going on here than I'm interested in participating in. School C is mostly agnostic in this debate, and seems like a good middle ground.

this happens in every field too. when i arrived in my department, i was shocked to learn that almost everyone is very much a "social scientist" historian, and i'm firmly in the "humanities" historian camp. going through methodology courses i wondered if i was even in the right department, if i should jump ship to english or anthropology, but my advisor happens do history just the way i like to (which is the primary reason i wanted to work with her), and we're both pretty comfortable with going against the grain of the department. you can avoid the controversial (and non-controversial) positions of your department pretty easily as long as you and your advisor (when you have one) are on the same page. my department's also full of marxists, and while i'm a pretty leftwing person in my private life i had no intention of writing marxist history. you don't have to work the way most of your department is working as long as you and your advisor are on the same page about it.

As far as my program's degree, they admit only people interested in pursuing the PhD, but they give MS's to everyone who completes the second year and what is essentially a master's thesis. Does that change things?

this definitely changes things. my recommendation is to tough it out until you complete the masters thesis in your second year. don't apply to schools for this cycle, wait until fall 2011 to apply for PhD programs with the idea that you'll have your masters in hand by then. it is fairly common for people to switch out of combined MS/PhD programs like yours and finish their PhDs elsewhere. this is the path of least resistance. when you do get an advisor, you can be up front about how you realized this department isn't really the best fit for you but you look forward to completing the masters with them anyway. finish the requirements for the MS and then reapply to school C.

Do you think I'd need letters from people at my present school if I applied for this cycle? Applications are due at the end of December, at which point I'll only have known the professors at my present school for less than three months.

if you applied this cycle, i'd say you could get away with having all 3 letters from your undergrad, but it may be useful to have 1 letter from your current school to talk about your research capabilities as a graduate student. i'd recommend having 1 of 3 from your grad school even though you haven't known them very long. but really, i wouldn't apply to schools again this cycle. get their MS and get out. few people will raise eyebrows at it, but if you're reapplying for schools 3 months into your first grad program, it looks fishy.

it's only 2 years, not 6 or 7. finish the masters where you are, all the while maintaining contact with people at school C and making sure their program is what you think and hope it is. then next year apply and the transition will be fairly smooth. good luck! and get some sleep! you'll make it.

[Sparky]

You keep emphasizing "slow me down"--is there a particular reason you need to get your PhD as fast as possible? I understand the funding issue, but as I would assume everyone at your current school faces the same issue, doesn't the program help you secure fellowships and other funding for the remaining years?

[TMP]

What StrangeLight is basically trying to say is this: The grass is always greener on the other side.

No question about it that many graduate students, if they had choices before deciding on a program, think about whether or not they should've gone with another program that just seems, at the moment, better. I've been there with my MA. We all had to make really, really tough choices. Now that I have graduated with my MA and am looking at PhD programs. I am actually applying to a PhD program where I was accepted for the MA. Why? Because I believed that this program was just as strong as the program where I did my MA, not because I regretted turning this program down 2 years ago. I just want an opportunity to try this program. The one professor I stayed in with had no hard feelings when I contacted him about applying to his PhD program. He was just happy to know that I had good education with my MA program and would be delighted to have my application.

So, as StrangeLight suggested, if it's MS/PhD combined program where you can walk away after the MS, the other school shouldn't hold any grudges against you for turning them down earlier. But what you don't want to do is burn any bridges, with either schools. Academia, as you saw, is a small world.

If it's a straight PhD, definitely have a conversation with the DGS. The DGS is supposed to be looking out for you and be helping you to succeed, even if it means seeing to it that you can work with this person in another department. I talked to my DGS quite a few times about my concerns with the program when I first started. He was really helpful. He just wanted me to be happy and successful. That's what any good DGS should do.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks again for the advice, guys.

I don't even know who the grad coordinator is, or even if there is one here--I was certainly never informed of one during orientation. A search on the website turned up dry. That said, there is a 'graduate adviser,' but he is one of the people who expressed interest in me coming here. I'm not interested in his current research to the point where I would want to pursue it (and his name also carries ideological baggage that would make it difficult for me to obtain positions at certain schools after graduation).

Also, at School C their pitch to me when they were courting me was specifically that I could work on this joint project with these two professors, so I'm pretty sure I'd be able to do that there. Naively, I chose my current school because I figured it would offer me more freedom. Since getting here (and realizing everyone else in my cohort has projects and advisers, and that summer funding is contingent on your adviser), I've realized that was too naive.

If I contacted the professors at School C and:

--told them that I've come to believe that as I've learned more about what graduate school is really about--and come to realize what my research passions are--that I've come to think that I'd really want to work on a project with them

--asked them whether they'd encourage me to apply again,

do you think there is a risk in that? Would they fear that I'm getting them involved in drama, or assume that I'm not committed to graduate school/crazy somehow?

[TMP]

Yes, talk to that graduate adviser. Seriously. He's going to want to know why you want to leave his lab/program and will want to rectify the situation. That's HIS JOB.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, talk to that graduate adviser. Seriously. He's going to want to know why you want to leave his lab/program and will want to rectify the situation. That's HIS JOB.

Honestly I don't know how it can be rectified. Are they going to offer me guaranteed summer funding and reduce my teaching load to levels that I would've gotten at School C? They would have done that during the admissions process if that were possible. He can't really change his entire resarch program, or hire professors that I could work with here, either. I also don't see him offering me the freedom that I thought I would have when I came--at orientation, he was going on about how if you don't have your second-year project worked out by spring, you're in trouble, and how changing/choosing advisors after that point was another sure sign of trouble. What else can he do to make things better? I just feel like School C offered me a clearer path toward a successful dissertation.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Anonymous Coward

[fuzzylogician]

Honestly I don't know how it can be rectified. Are they going to offer me guaranteed summer funding and reduce my teaching load to levels that I would've gotten at School C? They would have done that during the admissions process if that were possible. He can't really change his entire resarch program, or hire professors that I could work with here, either. I also don't see him offering me the freedom that I thought I would have when I came--at orientation, he was going on about how if you don't have your second-year project worked out by spring, you're in trouble, and how changing/choosing advisors after that point was another sure sign of trouble. What else can he do to make things better? I just feel like School C offered me a clearer path toward a successful dissertation.

Listen, you need to decide if there is a chance to salvage things at your current school, or not. It sounds to me right now that you are being very negative about your situation; and though your frustrations is understandable, for practical reasons it'd be better if you could try to be a bit more objective. Not having summer funding, as others have mentioned, is very common -- and not a reason to be so wholeheartedly disappointed with a school. You knew what funding situation you were getting into when you accepted school A's offer, so why are you so upset now? As far a having freedom goes, I don't know that I understand what you expected and what your current program actually does, but have you tried talking to your advisor about changing whatever doesn't suit your personality or work-methods? There is a very good point to what you've been told--if you take too long to start coming up with a project or if you change advisors too late in the game, you will indeed have less chances of finishing your degree on time. Is that what is meant by "less freedom"? Programs which have had experience with students taking too long to complete their degree requirements will have good reason to supervise new students more closely. Maybe you just need to be clear about being aware of your responsibilities and showing that you've given them the necessary thought. In addition to all this, how do you know that there wouldn't have been things you don't like at school C, had you accepted its offer? Things always look different from the outside looking in.

Details aside, I'd suggest you give this some thought and come up with a precise list of things that are not to your liking and practical suggestions on how to improve them. Then meet with the grad advisor and work with him towards finding a way that makes everyone involved happy. I support the advice you've been given here that you should at least complete your Masters and then reapply to school C for a PhD. But you should still try to make the most out of the year and a half that you have left at school A. You will need to maintain good relations there if you are to obtain LORs from your current professors, and if you could improve the situation so that you are happier, you might discover a project you enjoy working on and this whole problem will simply disappear.

[Anonymous Coward]

You knew what funding situation you were getting into when you accepted school A's offer, so why are you so upset now?

No, I assumed (foolishly) that summer funding would be easier to obtain (their fact sheet even had a range for summer funding, that did not include $0). With summer funding, the difference between the two schools would be less than $2,000/year. Without it, the difference is $6,000. That's not trivial to me.

As far a having freedom goes, I don't know that I understand what you expected and what your current program actually does, but have you tried talking to your advisor about changing whatever doesn't suit your personality or work-methods? There is a very good point to what you've been told--if you take too long to start coming up with a project or if you change advisors too late in the game, you will indeed have less chances of finishing your degree on time. Is that what is meant by "less freedom"? Programs which have had experience with students taking too long to complete their degree requirements will have good reason to supervise new students more closely.

I agree. What I am saying is that I had a pretty naive and foolish idea that not being committed to a project, as well as having a wide range of different researchers with divergent interests around, was desirable and good in graduate school. I thought I could spend my first few years integrating diverse inputs from many different research approaches to come up with a project. Only after coming here did I realize that getting to work with a professor or two right away is the best way to be successful in graduate school in general, and only after that did I realize that I don't know if there's anybody here whose research interests are closely aligned enough with mine that I'd want to spend the next 6 years working on their projects. On the other hand, one of the professors told me that I could work on my research interests under him, but where would that leave me after graduate school? I mean, he is not well-known and does not have much expertise in that particular area, so I don't feel good about it at all.

I support the advice you've been given here that you should at least complete your Masters and then reapply to school C for a PhD. But you should still try to make the most out of the year and a half that you have left at school A.

Wouldn't I just be losing another year in that situation? I mean, I'd have to start from scratch on the PhD no matter what.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Anonymous Coward

[fuzzylogician]

I agree that an additional 6K a year is a lot of money; I rejected an offer than would have payed me about 13K more than I am receiving right now, but I don't regret it for a second. The only important question here is whether or not you are payed enough to live (relatively) comfortably. If not, that is a good reason to quit a program and reapply to a new one with better funding. If you are, then it comes down to research fit, in my opinion. In any case, if summer funding was part of what was offered to you when you accepted your offer and then not delivered on, you should bring that up with the graduate advisor. Explain things the way you have here and ask him to help you find some additional funding for the summer. That's only fair.

The fit question is still not completely clear to me. You wrote: " I don't know if there's anybody here whose research interests are closely aligned enough with mine that I'd want to spend the next 6 years working on their projects." Is this past tense or does it still hold? Take the time to research the opportunities you have at your current school before you decide it's not good for you. There are thread on here and elsewhere that you can read that address the question of "new, upcoming professor" vs. "hotshot, famous professor" as advisor. If you could combine the two I think that would be best. You say there is a professor who would supervise your work in an area that interests you, but you are worried about the level of guidance that he can provide? Did you consult with him about this? If it's not his area of expertise, he should not be offended by this kind of concern. Could you also collaborate with the professor from the other department that you wrote about? It sounds like he has expertise in the field that you are interested in. Meet with these two professors and ask them (or ask yourself) what other resources are available to you through your department and whether or not they will be suitable for the research you want to do. If not, again - that is a good reason to leave a program and reapply to another program. You need to take the initiative and be active about making things work. If you won't do it, certainly no one will do it for you.

The reason I keep telling you to try to make the most out of your current situation is that leaving a school mid-way through a program and applying to another one may burn a lot of bridges, if not done correctly. That is why I suggest you stick it out at least until you have your MS, even if it is a waste of a year. Completing a program will look better on your CV; you should be able to secure good recommendation letters; and you should be able to better explain the change in your interests, showcase your efforts to make the most out of the situation at school A. If you jump ship after just one semester you will be far from the ideal candidate for school C. Why should they accept you when you just dropped out of school A and admit to having unrealistic ideas about graduate school? Graduate school is a process, and you have only just begun it. I think your SOP will sound much more mature, focused and convincing if you try your best and don't quit in the middle.

Edited October 25, 2010 by fuzzylogician

[StrangeLight]

i may not be reading your subsequent responses wit the correct tone, AC, but i think you're being a bit unreasonable.

you need to talk to your graduate advisor. not about working WITH HIM, or HIS research, or any of those things. you just need to tell him your current problems with the program overall. his job AS graduate adviser is to help you with these exact problems. if you want your discussion to remain confidential, then tell him that and it will. also, of course he was one of the people that wanted you to come to school A. the graduate adviser's job is to make contact with accepted students and convince them to enroll in the school. that is what he does. and his function is to talk to you about the program, how you are or aren't fitting into it, and how that can be changed for the better, whether that's switching departments (any thoughts on this?), getting your MS and getting out, or finding something long-term that can work.

for another example about funding: i turned down an offer that would have paid me 12K more in my first year and 15K more in my second year to be at my current school, because the program is better and there are professors here who i really want to work with. geographically i lost out too. i could've been living in a condo on the beach in southern florida but instead i'm in the midwest rustbelt. $6000 makes a difference, for sure, but theoretically you can survive without summer funding on what they're paying you now and presumably when you rented an apartment you budgeted for the money you knew you had, not the money you thought you might get.

AND if you need an adviser to get summer funding, then get an adviser. again, STOP thinking about this like you have another 6 years at school A. you have another year and a half until you finish a thesis project and they give you an MS. then you can move to school C and you will start IN THE PhD PROGRAM, not from the MS all over again. overall, this may add 1 year to your time to degree (staying at school A would take 6 total years, going to school A for MS and school C for PhD would take 7 total years). in the grand scheme of things, in terms of your entire career, 1 year is nothing.

ALSO, you keep saying you don't want to take more time to degree as though there's an alternative. if you applied this fall to school C, finished 1 year at school A and tried to transfer some of those credits to school C (many grad schools don't let you transfer your credits... either you obtained a degree somewhere else or you didn't, and if you didn't, THEN you start over at the MS), you'd still add 1 year to your overall time to degree. and honestly, school C will be suspect of you now if you apply this fall. they'll think you didn't know what grad school actually was (true), and that you may not like their program any more than you like school A (also, frankly, true), and that you may want to jump ship again if school C isn't exactly what you expect it to be (also, frankly, likely).

yes, you can email those two profs at school C, but ONLY AFTER you talk to the graduate adviser and let them know you will be doing this. academics talk to each other so be up front about it. they'll hear about it anyway through gossip and you don't want that.

i understand you wanted to transfer to school C as quickly as possible, maybe even so you could start there in january, but that won't happen. that's not how grad school works. so quit deciding what your grad adviser (who is the graduate director, it's the same thing) might be able to do for you and go eff'ing talk to him.

if this is about the money difference and summer funding, suck it up. you still have a chance at summer funding if you work with that professor who offered to be your adviser. no, he's not well known, but if you move on from that school after your MS, then there's no harm in working with him. he won't be your dissertation adviser. and an unknown adviser is better than no adviser. if you can't demonstrate that you're progressing towards your thesis (i.e. if you have no adviser or topic by may) your program might kick you out anyway.

and if this is about not having research options at school A, again, suck it up. pick a project, any project. work on it for 18 months. then reapply to schools and you can spend the next 5 years (and the rest of your career) working on what you really want to be working on.

i know from experience some people in science-y degrees that work with an adviser who does exactly what they want to study, and all they ever get to do is prepare cultures and samples. their thesis topic is dictated to them, not organically created from their own curiosity. the topic might be interesting but the research question their stuck with is boring to them. so that can happen too. and, just because at the time of admissions school C said you could do the joint project doesn't mean they'll let you do that once you get there. people say a lot of shit to convince prospective students to choose their school, including pretending their programs are more open and flexible than they actually are.

sorry, this felt like a rant. i just feel like, perhaps unfairly, that you're not being realistic about your situation.

[adaptations]

Given the length of this conversation, I will admit up front that I didn't read all the responses. I do know of a recent situation where the same thing happened. The student who decided she made the wrong choice contacted her potential advisors at the school she wanted to transfer to. It may have been a unique situation, but the advisors were happy to have her and they worked with the department and arranged for the transfer. She did not have to start from scratch and the process went relatively smoothly. I only mention this because I know it can be done, although I am sure this is a rarity.

Good luck!

[TMP]

Now I'm seeing all of this, I can actually related with some of your issues.

School A vs. School B

Look, two years go by very fast. It's unbelievable. I was accepted to Schools A and B for my MA. School B had an option for PhD if I did well in the MA portion (it was a MA/PhD program). School A had a separate PhD program in which I would have to start all over again, adding extra 2 years for the coursework. Both had fantastic advisers. But it came down to this: Who did I want to be my dissertation adviser? Who would be the best person on the long run for funding and jobs? I decided that I wanted an opportunity to start graduate school with School A with this adviser, who had a good reputation as a teacher. Sure, there were times during my MA program that I wished I had gone to School B but I knew that in terms of money, it was better this way as I didn't really *want* to pay for the MA in that MA/PhD program. Now it's time for me to apply for the PhD. I contacted School B to see if they were interested, and, hell yes, they are. They were very glad to hear that I had graduated from my MA program and were quick to offer me a year's worth of coursework if accepted. So now I'm applying to School B for the PhD.

Point of the story: Use the time you have, make the most of it, maintain good relationships with ALL professors (even at School A, keep them updated on your progress), and stay in the present. Summer funding is never guaranteed unless it's in writing. I hope that you're looking over your budget and making some adjustments if you had anticipated summer funding. Besides, it's just one summer at this point. Most graduate students just work in the labs or find some kind of jobs to keep busy and pay their bills.

If you can show ALL professors that you are committed to finishing the MS, they will take you much more seriously than if you drop out now. Professors do talk to each other. If you stay on good terms with all professors at your current school, they will be very supportive of your move to School A. School A will know that they're going to gain a great student if you can get great LORs from your current school.

Choosing a project ASAP

It's also normal to be pressured into finding a project before your second year, especially if the program has had a record of graduates not finishing in a timely manner. My MA program had that problem. Several MA students ahead of me wasted their summer "exploring the bookshelves" and started researching in their 3rd semester. It took them a minimum of an additional semester or two to finish their theses. One of them handed in her thesis 2 years LATE. When my graduate adviser sat me down in November of my first semester, he asked, "Have you picked a thesis topic yet? Ideally you should spend your summer doing research in the archives." I froze. It was concluded that thesis idea/project = summer funding. I delivered and couldn't have been happier. Yes, it was annoying to come up with a thesis topic so early and quickly but I did already have some ideas of what I wanted to research on but I had wanted to use my second semester coursework for more ideas. It's worth asking your graduate adviser why the pressure now and he just might tell you why. Departments these days are really trying to address the problem of graduate students taking too long because it costs them money in terms of investment and keeping the student around. Besides I had actually finished my MA ON time, first student in a while, really, (and finished a full draft of my thesis by the end of my 3rd semester), I have secured excellent LORs stating that I am capable of finishing the PhD in a timely manner. School A would like that just as my School B did too when I told them of my progress.

Hopefully my stories will help you put your issues in perspective.

[rising_star]

No, I assumed (foolishly) that summer funding would be easier to obtain (their fact sheet even had a range for summer funding, that did not include $0). With summer funding, the difference between the two schools would be less than $2,000/year. Without it, the difference is $6,000. That's not trivial to me.

It might not be trivial but, if it doesn't make the difference between being homeless and not, then don't worry about. Especially don't worry about it since you can't fix summer 2011 money either way. Stop focusing on money. Money can't buy you happiness, and it sounds like you're using it as an excuse.

I agree. What I am saying is that I had a pretty naive and foolish idea that not being committed to a project, as well as having a wide range of different researchers with divergent interests around, was desirable and good in graduate school. I thought I could spend my first few years integrating diverse inputs from many different research approaches to come up with a project. Only after coming here did I realize that getting to work with a professor or two right away is the best way to be successful in graduate school in general, and only after that did I realize that I don't know if there's anybody here whose research interests are closely aligned enough with mine that I'd want to spend the next 6 years working on their projects. On the other hand, one of the professors told me that I could work on my research interests under him, but where would that leave me after graduate school? I mean, he is not well-known and does not have much expertise in that particular area, so I don't feel good about it at all.

Let me ask you a serious question. At School C, where you can integrate all these ideas and approaches, won't you be just as lost and taking just as much time to pull something together as you will be to finish a MS at School A? I mean this in all seriousness. From what you've posted, it seems like not only do yo have an unrealistic idea of how graduate school should work, but also that you have unrealistic expectations on how long people are going to let you sit around and read and learn from a lot of people without doing any research of your own.

The debate comes up all the time about whether or not it matters that your advisor is well-known. My take has always been that having a big name advisor may get your foot in the door but that it won't matter if you and your research aren't good. You need to do the best research you can, regardless of who your advisor is. The advisor that in your eyes "is not well-known and does not have much expertise in that particular area" may be better connected and know more than you think. Have you asked? If not, sit down and have a meeting with that professor ASAP. And, never underestimate a prof's ability to network and help you network, which is way more helpful than having a big advisor that's mostly a figurehead.

Wouldn't I just be losing another year in that situation? I mean, I'd have to start from scratch on the PhD no matter what.

Good luck finding a PhD program, any PhD program, that will take all of the credits you've earned without having earned a prior graduate degree. In my program, students with a MA/MS can count 24 units of that towards the PhD. Those with previous graduate work can only count up to 9 units. That's a huge difference.

yes, you can email those two profs at school C, but ONLY AFTER you talk to the graduate adviser and let them know you will be doing this. academics talk to each other so be up front about it. they'll hear about it anyway through gossip and you don't want that.

Let me first say that I agree wholeheartedly with everything StrangeLight has said. But, I quoted this part in particular to reiterate its importance. Professors talk to one another. One guy will get your application in his hands and then call someone at your current or previous program (even if that person didn't write a rec letter) and ask if they know you, what kind of student you are, etc. You don't want the answer to be "this student is kind of a flake, who didn't know what he wanted out of grad school, and then apparently is filing transfer apps behind our backs."

i understand you wanted to transfer to school C as quickly as possible, maybe even so you could start there in january, but that won't happen. that's not how grad school works. so quit deciding what your grad adviser (who is the graduate director, it's the same thing) might be able to do for you and go eff'ing talk to him.

YES, YES, YES!! Talk to the grad director/chair/advisor for the department and see how to make the program you are in work for both you and them. They really don't want you to drop out.

and if this is about not having research options at school A, again, suck it up. pick a project, any project. work on it for 18 months. then reapply to schools and you can spend the next 5 years (and the rest of your career) working on what you really want to be working on.

SOOOO true. Suck it up. As a post-doc or faculty member or a person in any job, you're going to be asked to do things that you may not want to do. But, you'll do them anyway so that you can earn a paycheck. So, find someone to work with for the summer and get your summer money if that's so effing important to you. It won't be the end of the world, I swear.

Choosing a project ASAP

It's also normal to be pressured into finding a project before your second year, especially if the program has had a record of graduates not finishing in a timely manner. My MA program had that problem. Several MA students ahead of me wasted their summer "exploring the bookshelves" and started researching in their 3rd semester. It took them a minimum of an additional semester or two to finish their theses. One of them handed in her thesis 2 years LATE. When my graduate adviser sat me down in November of my first semester, he asked, "Have you picked a thesis topic yet? Ideally you should spend your summer doing research in the archives." I froze. It was concluded that thesis idea/project = summer funding. I delivered and couldn't have been happier. Yes, it was annoying to come up with a thesis topic so early and quickly but I did already have some ideas of what I wanted to research on but I had wanted to use my second semester coursework for more ideas. It's worth asking your graduate adviser why the pressure now and he just might tell you why.

This is also very, very true. Picking a topic early will enable you to complete a MS in a timely fashion. I picked my MA topic during my first semester and though, at times, I sort of wished I'd chosen something different, I was able to use the summer to do research and my second year to write. I was one of the first students in years to finish the MA in two years and I am damn proud of that. Then, if you want, you can use that MS to go somewhere else. And realize that people will be impressed that you did a MS in a timely fashion, rather than dragging it out.

Seriously, AC, I think you need to get over the first semester jitters/frustration/worries and try to think objectively about your situation. Read some of the other posts on here about people wanting to transfer. Read posts from people that have transferred only to have the same problems in their second program as they had in their first.

[Anonymous Coward]

School A vs. School B

Look, two years go by very fast. It's unbelievable. I was accepted to Schools A and B for my MA. School B had an option for PhD if I did well in the MA portion (it was a MA/PhD program). School A had a separate PhD program in which I would have to start all over again, adding extra 2 years for the coursework. Both had fantastic advisers. But it came down to this: Who did I want to be my dissertation adviser? Who would be the best person on the long run for funding and jobs? I decided that I wanted an opportunity to start graduate school with School A with this adviser, who had a good reputation as a teacher. Sure, there were times during my MA program that I wished I had gone to School B but I knew that in terms of money, it was better this way as I didn't really *want* to pay for the MA in that MA/PhD program. Now it's time for me to apply for the PhD. I contacted School B to see if they were interested, and, hell yes, they are. They were very glad to hear that I had graduated from my MA program and were quick to offer me a year's worth of coursework if accepted. So now I'm applying to School B for the PhD.

Great advice, but I just want to make sure people see that my situation is a bit different from this. Yes, my program hands out MS's after a thesis in the second year, but it is strictly a PhD program. Nobody is admitted only for an MS (of course, some people do drop out with the MS, but that is highly discouraged)

It's also normal to be pressured into finding a project before your second year, especially if the program has had a record of graduates not finishing in a timely manner. My MA program had that problem.

Yes! I discussed my concerns a bit with my graduate advisor yesterday, and this came out as the rationale for the pressure. It still bode well for this program if people have such trouble getting degrees or coming up with dissertations, though..

[Anonymous Coward]

Rising Star, I appreciate your honest advice, but I think you're being a bit aggressive or hostile.

It might not be trivial but, if it doesn't make the difference between being homeless and not, then don't worry about. Especially don't worry about it since you can't fix summer 2011 money either way. Stop focusing on money. Money can't buy you happiness, and it sounds like you're using it as an excuse.

Cliches aside, money can buy you time, and time can be the difference between finishing a dissertation on time or not, between getting your dissertation over the top or not. Not to mention, some of us come from working class backgrounds and have some responsibility for supporting our families.

Let me ask you a serious question. At School C, where you can integrate all these ideas and approaches, won't you be just as lost and taking just as much time to pull something together as you will be to finish a MS at School A? I mean this in all seriousness. From what you've posted, it seems like not only do yo have an unrealistic idea of how graduate school should work, but also that you have unrealistic expectations on how long people are going to let you sit around and read and learn from a lot of people without doing any research of your own.

You misread my post. What I was saying was that I came to school A because I THOUGHT that I could integrate ideas and approaches and all that naive stuff, but at school C I would have direction and two concrete advisers. I think the more structured atmosphere would be more productive for me. Now, I'm getting pressure to start a project, but I don't have that structure and I don't have one or two people who could form a core of a thesis committee.

The debate comes up all the time about whether or not it matters that your advisor is well-known. My take has always been that having a big name advisor may get your foot in the door but that it won't matter if you and your research aren't good.

A foot in the door is more desirable than no foot in a door, no?

Good luck finding a PhD program, any PhD program, that will take all of the credits you've earned without having earned a prior graduate degree. In my program, students with a MA/MS can count 24 units of that towards the PhD. Those with previous graduate work can only count up to 9 units. That's a huge difference.

I'm certain I will not get very many credits to count toward my PhD either way.

Let me first say that I agree wholeheartedly with everything StrangeLight has said. But, I quoted this part in particular to reiterate its importance. Professors talk to one another. One guy will get your application in his hands and then call someone at your current or previous program (even if that person didn't write a rec letter) and ask if they know you, what kind of student you are, etc. You don't want the answer to be "this student is kind of a flake, who didn't know what he wanted out of grad school, and then apparently is filing transfer apps behind our backs."

This is what I'm most concerned about. I've already told my advisor about my concerns and that I'm wondering if this is a good fit. He told me that when he was in grad school, some of his friends transferred in, and some transferred out, and that nobody would hold it against me. On the other hand, I really don't want to be seen as a flake by the people at School C. Is that really unavoidable if I try to apply this year?

So, find someone to work with for the summer and get your summer money if that's so effing important to you. It won't be the end of the world, I swear.

It just seems like there aren't that many opportunities here for summer positions.

[rising_star]

Rising Star, I appreciate your honest advice, but I think you're being a bit aggressive or hostile.

First, let me say that I think I'm being blunt and that you're hoping for more coddling. You aren't going to get it from me but maybe someone else will come along and do that. So, there's more bluntness ahead. Skip it if you want.

You misread my post. What I was saying was that I came to school A because I THOUGHT that I could integrate ideas and approaches and all that naive stuff, but at school C I would have direction and two concrete advisers. I think the more structured atmosphere would be more productive for me. Now, I'm getting pressure to start a project, but I don't have that structure and I don't have one or two people who could form a core of a thesis committee.

The thing is, graduate school isn't about someone else handing you structure. It's about figuring things out on your own. As for a thesis committee, you don't need to have people that do exactly what you want to do. You need to have people that either use similar theories, methodologies, or approaches who understand and respect what you're working on.

A foot in the door is more desirable than no foot in a door, no?

There are soooo many ways for you to get your own foot in the door, aside from having a big name advisor. Go to conferences, both national and either regional or topical, and network with people. Honestly, my no-name MA advisor helped me meet more bigwigs than my big name PhD advisor has. When it comes to jobs/postdocs, do you think they pay more attention to the advisor's name on the CV/rec letter or to the candidate they've already met and had conversations with in the past?

Honestly, seems to me like you are looking for reasons to leave your program and came here seeking justification for doing so. What you've gotten is a whole bunch of people telling you to seriously consider

I'm certain I will not get very many credits to count toward my PhD either way.

This seems like something you want to figure out. Read the graduate handbook (both from the department and from the university) at School C and figure it out.

This is what I'm most concerned about. I've already told my advisor about my concerns and that I'm wondering if this is a good fit. He told me that when he was in grad school, some of his friends transferred in, and some transferred out, and that nobody would hold it against me. On the other hand, I really don't want to be seen as a flake by the people at School C. Is that really unavoidable if I try to apply this year?

What they'll see at School C (and anywhere else you apply) is that you decided after less than a full semester that a program you'd visited and whose offer you accepted isn't for you. How is that not flaky? You've given your current school less than 3 months to make things work! And now you want some other school to offer you a 4-6 year funding package, which requires a leap of faith on their part to believe that you won't turn around and do the same thing to them.

It is MUCH more common to leave a program with a master's and then transfer elsewhere, rather than just bailing after the first year. This has been pointed out to you by numerous people and, for whatever reason, you're still questioning it. Why?

It just seems like there aren't that many opportunities here for summer positions.

Then talk to some of the current grad students and see what they do for their summer funding. Then pursue similar opportunities for yourself. In my program, while there isn't a lot of summer RA money, there is a bunch of summer teaching money. Grad students teach a course for either a 3-week or a 5-week term in exchange for a few thousand bucks. (And, btw, please don't assume that other people on here don't come from working-class backgrounds or have family to support or have other circumstances that put a stress on their finances. Honestly, and this comes from being in the social sciences, I think you people in the sciences that make $18K+ *before* summer funding [including at my own university] need to quit your damn whining about your pay because there are plenty of people in the humanities and social sciences that would love to make that much and don't. It's all relative. How much do you really need to survive? Anything more than that is just a bonus so don't let it sway you.)

Seriously, you can't just expect everything to be handed to. What it sounds like is that you want to go to School C so that people will hand you a dissertation topic and help you do it. And that you want people to just hand you money for existing, without actually doing anything to prove that you're worth getting that money.

[StrangeLight]

Great advice, but I just want to make sure people see that my situation is a bit different from this. Yes, my program hands out MS's after a thesis in the second year, but it is strictly a PhD program. Nobody is admitted only for an MS (of course, some people do drop out with the MS, but that is highly discouraged)

YOU ARE WRONG. many schools, the vast majority of them, do not have terminal MSes or MAs. people are admittedly ONLY to the PhD program and are awarded the MS after two years and a thesis, just as you describe. YOUR SITUATION IS NOT UNIQUE. I UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING AND I AM TELLING YOU THIS IS HOW MOST PROGRAMS WORK. so you can still get your MS in two years and then apply to some other school for their PhD program. it will add 1 total year (maybe 1.5) to your time to degree, but as you're apparently convinced, you will have the opportunity to work on something that truly interests you.

okay? okay.

Cliches aside, money can buy you time, and time can be the difference between finishing a dissertation on time or not, between getting your dissertation over the top or not. Not to mention, some of us come from working class backgrounds and have some responsibility for supporting our families.

lots of us come from working class backgrounds. YOU SHOULD NOT BE SUPPORTING YOUR FAMILY ON YOUR GRADUATE STIPEND. i don't care what your personal circumstances are, you are paid just barely enough to support yourself. you can't provide for them as well. if their financial situation demands that you contribute to their household while also supporting yourself (presumably while not living in their home) then you may need to leave graduate school. that sounds harsh because it is. what you really need to do is decide for yourself what's more important: getting a PhD or supporting your family. you can't do both at the same time, with or without summer funding.

you really have 4 options here:

1) drop out and quit academia.

2) reapply for schools right now and start from scratch at a new PhD program. you will lose this year's coursework and you WILL have a harder time getting into schools because you're leaving a great program after one semester.

3) finish your MS at this school with anyone, studying anything, and then apply for PhD programs in the fall of 2011. you'll explain your departure because you want to do a different type of research, which is a common reason for moving on. then you'll spend 4 years at your new school and get your PhD.

4) make things work at your current school for the long term. you seem pretty determined not to do this, so i guess you really only have 3 options.

[swimmingbird]

While I don't really agree with the tone some people are taking in this conversation, I do think that their message of "slow down" is an important one. AC, you're very new at your current institution, and it's hard to know how much of your discomfort is just a result of not being settled in yet. I know I'm new to my program and I'm profoundly uncomfortable and often feel that if I had gone somewhere else it might be better, and I don't think it's because the program's structure is wrong for me - I'm just very unsettled-in. Also, it's very important to consider how what you do will look to others. Imagine this is a job on your resume: would it look good to quit after a few months? No!!

My advice would be to wait AT LEAST a year. You need to be sure that you truly can't work with this program, and you need to assure other people that you took the time to give it a chance. Ideally, do get that MS; you won't have to "start all over" afterwards, time-wise, for your PhD, because you'll have gained so much research experience you'll be much more efficient in your dissertation work.

Something that I feel hasn't been said yet and should have been is this: if you give this program a real chance and it doesn't work, get that MS and get out. Do not get a PhD in a field you don't like or with people you don't respect. Your work will not be your best, and your PhD will not reflect what you really want to do. Your dissertation work is what will get you noticed, will brand you, and will get you a job and a career - or not. So, first, give yourself the chance to really evaluate this program and give yourself a reputation for rational, deliberate decision-making. Then, whatever you decide, get a PhD that reflects what you want to do.