Opinions about ranking

[Strangefox]

So I’ve been thinking about how important schools’ ranking will be when (if) I am choosing between several offers. I’ve read threads here on this issue and some people wrote: ranking is less important then friendly atmosphere in a department, supportive peers and advisors. And I was kind of leaning towards this point of view... Until today when I have spoken with a graduate student from one of the programs I applied to. They told me: ranking is very important in today’s job market, go for ranking. And now I am hesitant... Of course I would like to study in an atmosphere that is friendly, not toxic. I would like to have supportive peers around me and advisors I get along well with. But if in the end I will find problems looking for a job and I will see people from top-tier schools getting more offers just because they studied in these highly ranked programs... I am not so sure anymore. My aim is to be competitive on the job market so if that means having less supportive students and advisors... may be that discomfort is worth it. Because eventually there WILL be some discomfort and competition. Either it will be right in the program or it will be in the job market when I am fighting for jobs. And I need to choose... Perhaps I schould choose the first kind of discomfort in order to guarantee that I will find a good job in academia easily – and isn’t it my main goal anyways??

Right now I am NOT choosing between a friendly not-top-tier program and a not so friendly top-tier one. I wish I were! But who knows, may be I will be... I need to understand what the best decision will be in that case.

So please tell me what is your opinion about the importance of ranking?

[wanthony86]

I'm more or less in a similar situation myself (ok, not exactly). I was recently accepted into a Top 2 program that's been touted as one of the friendliest programs one could find. As a university overall, however, it's not as highly ranked as some of the other universities that I applied to. Are employers aware of rankings specific to a field or do they go by what the general public perceives? For example, would you go to an ivy league school that offers a top 20 program or a state school that offers a top 2 program?

[Langoustine]

I have had the same mindset as you, that I would go for fit and friendly department atmosphere. But I have had multiple people tell me (even a jogger I met on a trail and struck up a conversation with) tell me that bottomline: Go for the highest ranked school you can. And this is just all for job prospects....Then again part of me is like, well I will have such a good time in a nice place right?? Of course I don't want to be in a great program with crappy people or a mediocre program with nice folks. I think if you are thinking between two decent schools and there were no red flags from the visits or any other interaction then def factor in rank. I know for me at least I wouldn't be able to eck out a life in a place that made me miserable...So I don't know if this helps you any but...

For wanthony86's question I would go for the rank of the department, specific to the field. Chances are if you stay in your field it is a small world and people know names. People will recognize people you worked with, collaborated with, etc. I applied to a school that, although decent, wasn't really on my radar before but have been told of their awesome department. I am glad I did because my potential advisor has been described as the 'Brad Pitt' of 'insert specific field here .'

[Strangefox]

I think if you are thinking between two decent schools and there were no red flags from the visits or any other interaction then def factor in rank. I know for me at least I wouldn't be able to eck out a life in a place that made me miserable...So I don't know if this helps you any but...

Thanks, Langoustine! It helps

Yes, I think that if I am choosing between a couple of nice programs one of which is ranked higher, I will choose it, eventually.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Strangefox

[wanthony86]

I have had the same mindset as you, that I would go for fit and friendly department atmosphere. But I have had multiple people tell me (even a jogger I met on a trail and struck up a conversation with) tell me that bottomline: Go for the highest ranked school you can. And this is just all for job prospects....Then again part of me is like, well I will have such a good time in a nice place right?? Of course I don't want to be in a great program with crappy people or a mediocre program with nice folks. I think if you are thinking between two decent schools and there were no red flags from the visits or any other interaction then def factor in rank. I know for me at least I wouldn't be able to eck out a life in a place that made me miserable...So I don't know if this helps you any but...

For wanthony86's question I would go for the rank of the department, specific to the field. Chances are if you stay in your field it is a small world and people know names. People will recognize people you worked with, collaborated with, etc. I applied to a school that, although decent, wasn't really on my radar before but have been told of their awesome department. I am glad I did because my potential advisor has been described as the 'Brad Pitt' of 'insert specific field here .'

Thanks, Langoustine. I would imagine that if a senior statistician of some company were looking to hire someone, he or she would be aware of at least the top 10 or 20 statistics programs.

[fumblewhat]

I would really recommend reading this blog post from the blog Savage Minds. "Who needs alumni from 'top schools'?"

Much of it is Anthropology-specific, but one point stands out to me: graduate students in top programs tend to have less teaching experience, and teaching experience is currently what is in demand. I don't know much about the hard sciences, but I know in the humanities and social sciences tenure-track positions at research universities are a scarcity (like, seriously, forget about it), and most PhD's will be competing for positions at smaller, less research-oriented, more teaching-oriented schools. If you think you might be headed in that direction (keeping in mind that only 1/4th of all PhDs will ever obtain a tenure track position), then you may want to weigh the quality of the professional teaching experience each program would offer you, in addition to ranking. (That is, if you consider ranking more important than fit and academic atmosphere, which I personally don't. YMMV.)

Prestige is great, but graduate school is professional training. After people stop their "ooooohs and aaaaaaaahs" they're going to want to know what you're bringing to the table. Having an impressive pedigree and a famous adviser doesn't mean you can teach a 4/4 course load. So my question would be this: What program is going to get you the skills you need to compete?

[Eigen]

Also depends if you want to stay in academia or not.

In the sciences, at least, ranking is important... But the ranking of your post-doc is much more important than your PhD. So go to that small friendly department (that's not too horribly ranked), make good connections, do good work, and do a post-doc or two with a big name boss at a big name university.

I'll also note that who you did your PhD with is often way more important than where you did it- if you happen to work for a lesser known prof at a really well known school, that can often put you behind someone who worked for a well known prof at a lesser known university.

And when it comes to industry, I think the school name matters, but not often so much by how they're ranked. Some schools are known for good collaborations with industry, and that's more important than being a "top 5" school. Similarly, it's more important that your research was noteworthy than that you went to a big school.

What I've been told is to not completely discount rankings, but go where you'll be happy. Do well, get lots of publications, and put in your time networking, and you'll probably do fine.

I went to the lowest ranked school of the three I was accepted to- it was the best fit. And my boss here is well connected to big names in our field, which means if I do really well, I can probably get a post-doc with some of the top names in the field. And that will go a lot farther than getting my degree from a "higher ranked" university.

[laurend]

I agree with Eigen. For a PhD, there is no reason to go to a school just for the name, if the research isn't there and the program sucks. Also, keep in mind if the adminstrator or department chair are not BEYOND nice and helpful (chances are they are not normally this nice and helpful) run for the hills! You will deal with these people, especially the adminstrator a lot!

Also when you say

"Either it will be right in the program or it will be in the job market when I am fighting for jobs. And I need to choose... Perhaps I schould choose the first kind of discomfort in order to guarantee that I will find a good job in academia easily – and isn’t it my main goal anyways??"

Just make sure you understand that no matter where you go you will not be finding a good job in academia "EASILY". It will be super hard either way. You need to do one/two really strong post-docs and get teaching experience. As someone else mentioned, if you have never even TA'd it will be really hard to get a position in academia.

Edited February 1, 2011 by laurend

[thepoorstockinger]

I will have a better opinion on this in a month or so when I hear back from PhD programs I applied to. If I get into a top ranked school then my answer is: yes, it is very important. If I don't then I will think that Ivies and other top ranked schools are over rated and going to one is actually counter productive.

[natsteel]

I would really recommend reading this blog post from the blog Savage Minds. "Who needs alumni from 'top schools'?"

Much of it is Anthropology-specific, but one point stands out to me: graduate students in top programs tend to have less teaching experience, and teaching experience is currently what is in demand. I don't know much about the hard sciences, but I know in the humanities and social sciences tenure-track positions at research universities are a scarcity (like, seriously, forget about it), and most PhD's will be competing for positions at smaller, less research-oriented, more teaching-oriented schools. If you think you might be headed in that direction (keeping in mind that only 1/4th of all PhDs will ever obtain a tenure track position), then you may want to weigh the quality of the professional teaching experience each program would offer you, in addition to ranking. (That is, if you consider ranking more important than fit and academic atmosphere, which I personally don't. YMMV.)

Prestige is great, but graduate school is professional training. After people stop their "ooooohs and aaaaaaaahs" they're going to want to know what you're bringing to the table. Having an impressive pedigree and a famous adviser doesn't mean you can teach a 4/4 course load. So my question would be this: What program is going to get you the skills you need to compete?

This, for me, is probably the biggest factor between the prestigious and less prestigious schools. From looking at the websites, it seems that Ivies are beginning to understand this and are just now starting to implement some kind of professional training, though, they're still not requiring the kind of teaching you would do at a state/public school. But that doesn't mean those opportunities aren't there if you really pursued them. The teaching responsibilities are less because they want their students to graduate in 5-6 years rather than 7-8. However, I think it is possible, if one really wanted, to get enough teaching experience at an Ivy to make you competitive for SLAC jobs. But, if you end up contemplating an offer from a very prestigious program, teaching opportunities for graduate students would definitely be something you would want to pay attention to and ask your PA or the DGS about.

[ZeChocMoose]

A school that is well known in your field helps you get a job either nationally or internationally (assuming that you also did good work while you are in the program). If you earn a graduate degree from a school that is only known locally, you may limit your choice of options to a particular geographic region.

The academy (for better or worst) can be quite snobby about academics' pedigrees. If you hope to become a faculty member, I would suggest going to the school with the best reputation in your field. The only caveat is if Top Tier U didn't fund you. I would NOT recommend entering a PhD program without full funding (tuition remission + stipend). Or if the attrition is terrible (i.e. only 20% of people who enter the PhD program survive to earn degrees).

A school with a great reputation has amazing resources. Faculty are doing cutting edge research, there is funding for graduate students to attend conferences (publish or perish!), and the alumni network is large and national (perhaps even international). Also your cohort will become a part of your professional network when you graduate. They are the people who will invite you to give talks or seminars on their campuses and you may even collaborate with them on research projects. Also being a graduate student of Top Tier U may help you if you are applying to fellowships and dissertation grants. Take a look at who the funders gave awards to in previous years-- usually they are graduate students from other Top Tier Us.

In my opinion attending a well known institution gives you more choices. These choices are important when you find yourself competing in a saturated job market. Therefore, make yourself look the best it can on paper.

[Eigen]

A school that is well known in your field helps you get a job either nationally or internationally (assuming that you also did good work while you are in the program). If you earn a graduate degree from a school that is only known locally, you may limit your choice of options to a particular geographic region.

The academy (for better or worst) can be quite snobby about academics' pedigrees. If you hope to become a faculty member, I would suggest going to the school with the best reputation in your field. The only caveat is if Top Tier U didn't fund you. I would NOT recommend entering a PhD program without full funding (tuition remission + stipend). Or if the attrition is terrible (i.e. only 20% of people who enter the PhD program survive to earn degrees).

A school with a great reputation has amazing resources. Faculty are doing cutting edge research, there is funding for graduate students to attend conferences (publish or perish!), and the alumni network is large and national (perhaps even international). Also your cohort will become a part of your professional network when you graduate. They are the people who will invite you to give talks or seminars on their campuses and you may even collaborate with them on research projects. Also being a graduate student of Top Tier U may help you if you are applying to fellowships and dissertation grants. Take a look at who the funders gave awards to in previous years-- usually they are graduate students from other Top Tier Us.

In my opinion attending a well known institution gives you more choices. These choices are important when you find yourself competing in a saturated job market. Therefore, make yourself look the best it can on paper.

I think these distinctions are more important when you're, say, comparing top 10 schools to sub 150 ranked schools. Most of even the top 50-75 schools are going to be known pretty well, depending on who you choose to work with. And if you're comparing a #9 school to a #29 school, both are likely to have cutting edge research, good funding for graduate students, good conference attendance, and an international alumni base.

Looking at funding is always important- how many NSF career awards, NSF/NIH (insert your funding agency of choice here) grants? How many students on prestigious external fellowships? How many editorships in well known journals within the department? Looking at the seminar speakers can also be quite helpful- if you're pulling a lot of top names for speakers, that means your department has the pull, collaborations, or personal relationships to get those people to come visit.

But asking personal questions to potential advisers is also really helpful- if they have tight relationships with big names at other schools, that's really important. It doesn't matter that there's some other prestigious professor in your department (or at the university) if you're not personally working with them enough to get recommendations/referrals from them.

I have two prof's who both went to top 10 programs.... And both say that if they had to do it over again, they'd have gone to a smaller program for their PhD and gone to the top 10 institution for a post-doc.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Eigen

[natsteel]

Take this for what it's worth... My mentor actually told me to go to the best school possible because the big names "still carry serious weight with search committees." Now, that is from his experience as a professor and sometimes committee-member at a small branch school of a larger public university. I understand his point, but I still wouldn't put only the name over fit.

[Eigen]

Take this for what it's worth... My mentor actually told me to go to the best school possible because the big names "still carry serious weight with search committees." Now, that is from his experience as a professor and sometimes committee-member at a small branch school of a larger public university. I understand his point, but I still wouldn't put only the name over fit.

I think it's also really important to differentiate between STEM fields and non when you're talking about how important name is. I think they're a lot more important outside the STEM fields than within them.

[Bukharan]

I am not qualified enough to speak about US job market but I am quietly positive that if you apply to universities abroad, ranking will matter a lot. If you try to do research abroad (contact institutions, libraries, individuals), ranking will help.

Obviously, it is not the only factor. No one ever said it was.

[ZeChocMoose]

I think these distinctions are more important when you're, say, comparing top 10 schools to sub 150 ranked schools. Most of even the top 50-75 schools are going to be known pretty well, depending on who you choose to work with. And if you're comparing a #9 school to a #29 school, both are likely to have cutting edge research, good funding for graduate students, good conference attendance, and an international alumni base.

Looking at funding is always important- how many NSF career awards, NSF/NIH (insert your funding agency of choice here) grants? How many students on prestigious external fellowships? How many editorships in well known journals within the department? Looking at the seminar speakers can also be quite helpful- if you're pulling a lot of top names for speakers, that means your department has the pull, collaborations, or personal relationships to get those people to come visit.

But asking personal questions to potential advisers is also really helpful- if they have tight relationships with big names at other schools, that's really important. It doesn't matter that there's some other prestigious professor in your department (or at the university) if you're not personally working with them enough to get recommendations/referrals from them.

I have two prof's who both went to top 10 programs.... And both say that if they had to do it over again, they'd have gone to a smaller program for their PhD and gone to the top 10 institution for a post-doc.

I think this is very field specific. I assume there are a lot of well known and regarded chemistry programs. On the other hand, higher ed (as a discipline) has only been around for the last 50 years so there is not a lot of programs out there. (I highly doubt there are even 150 programs!) If you don't attend the top 15 programs maybe even the top 10-- research opportunities, funding, and job prospects significantly decline.

Also the availability of post-docs for education PhDs can be scarce. So your graduate institution can be the end all and the be all to set you up for a faculty career. You need to pick wisely and maximize your publishing while in the program. Therefore attending a program that is heavily involved with research is essential if you are looking for an academic career.

So for us, I would say that #9 to #29 could be a huge quality jump but #4 to #10 probably isn't that different.

Edited February 1, 2011 by ZeChocMoose

[natsteel]

I think it's also really important to differentiate between STEM fields and non when you're talking about how important name is. I think they're a lot more important outside the STEM fields than within them.

I would agree. My mentor is in the Humanities...

[tso123d]

I can only speak for chemistry (and even this based almost exclusively on hearsay), however I am becoming increasingly convinced that where you go to grad school can unfortunately matter a lot in terms of your chances of subsequently gaining employment, especially if you are interested in an academic position. The problem is that the competition for professorships is so fierce that in many cases it may be hard to be seriously considered, let alone receive an interview offer unless one has a doctorate from a top ranked program. I found the following article: http://pubs.acs.org/...education1.html to offer a sobering analysis of the realities of the academic job market. In this article, a group of researchers who studied the effect of one's grad school choice on success in finding an academic position concluded that:

"Our analyses suggest that students who are interested in an academic career should be advised that the selection of a reputable, high-ranking graduate school with high 'impact factor' is practically a sine qua non for obtaining high-ranking professorships and probably professorships in general"

Having said all that, of course there is another side to the story. Clearly it's not possible to fully separate correlation from causation here, i.e. on average stronger candidates will be admitted to higher ranked schools and these individuals will then find it easier to get a job easier because they are more able, not because of the name on their diploma. Furthermore, if you are an exceptional scientist who can produce truly outstanding results in graduate school and post-doctoral work, chances are you will one day become a professor, no matter where you went to grad school. I'm sure all of us know such individuals who have successfully climbed the academic ladder. Nonetheless, unfortunately for every such success story there are probably ten people for whom things did not turn out ideally, so one must look at such stories in perspective. Of course going to a higher ranked school offers no guarantee that you will one day become a professor (or any kind of successful scientist for that matter), but it does look as though it can give you a real advantage for the former.

tl;dr: The academic job market is incredibly competitive and, for better or worse, where you go to grad school can have a significant effect on your chances of being employed.

Edited February 1, 2011 by tso123d

[UFGator]

I applied to only 3 local schools, all of to which I consider to be attainable. I'd rank UF as my largest stretch, and am really hoping to get in there. But I haven't even thought of ranking really.

[qbtacoma]

I will have a better opinion on this in a month or so when I hear back from PhD programs I applied to. If I get into a top ranked school then my answer is: yes, it is very important. If I don't then I will think that Ivies and other top ranked schools are over rated and going to one is actually counter productive.

Yeah, that's probably true for me too.

It's like picking an orange M&M over a green M&M and then later believing that orange M&Ms are superior because, well, I made the right choice!

[Eigen]

I can only speak for chemistry (and even this based almost exclusively on hearsay), however I am becoming increasingly convinced that where you go to grad school can unfortunately matter a lot in terms of your chances of subsequently gaining employment, especially if you are interested in an academic position. The problem is that the competition for professorships is so fierce that in many cases it may be hard to be seriously considered, let alone receive an interview offer unless one has a doctorate from a top ranked program. I found the following article: http://pubs.acs.org/...education1.html to offer a sobering analysis of the realities of the academic job market. In this article, a group of researchers who studied the effect of one's grad school choice on success in finding an academic position concluded that:

Having said all that, of course there is another side to the story. Clearly it's not possible to fully separate correlation from causation here, i.e. on average stronger candidates will be admitted to higher ranked schools and these individuals will then find it easier to get a job easier because they are more able, not because of the name on their diploma. Furthermore, if you are an exceptional scientist who can produce truly outstanding results in graduate school and post-doctoral work, chances are you will one day become a professor, no matter where you went to grad school. I'm sure all of us know such individuals who have successfully climbed the academic ladder. Nonetheless, unfortunately for every such success story there are probably ten people for whom things did not turn out ideally, so one must look at such stories in perspective. Of course going to a higher ranked school offers no guarantee that you will one day become a professor (or any kind of successful scientist for that matter), but it does look as though it can give you a real advantage for the former.

tl;dr: The academic job market is incredibly competitive and, for better or worse, where you go to grad school can have a significant effect on your chances of being employed.

Absolutely true. Most of my info is based on recent experiences (the department where I'm a grad student just went through the process of filling a TT position), so I'm probably a bit biased based on the search committees results (we got to meet the top 6 personally).

The process is extremely competitive- I just have had friends go to more prestigious universities only to end up working with junior faculty who can't really boost their careers as much as a senior faculty member at a lower ranked institution might be able to (I stress might, it entirely depends).

One of the best ways to find out is to ask the department point blank where their past students have gotten academic positions. See how many have made it to TT positions at R1 schools, etc. It can really be a helpful metric. I found that of the schools I had to choose between, the one ranked #12 (at the time) had a much worse track record of faculty placements than one that was ranked ~#60-100, depending on where you look. The difference was a few very influential senior faculty (editors for journals, etc) that pulled the strings to get people positions.

Also be really careful with ranking systems in the sciences- the last 5-6 years have shown a huge bias for larger programs over smaller ones due to the ranking being determined by overall funding vs. per capita funding- get some funding figures and compare for yourself.

[repatriate]

At a recent CV seminar in my R1-based department, one faculty member said of reviewing job applicant CVs, "I only care about two things: where you went to school/who trained you and publications." Everyone in the room seemed to agree.

[BKMD]

Without any other information, I think higher ranked schools are more likely to give you a better education and job prospects (that's why they have that ranking, after all), but I also think there are a lot of exceptions and it really depends on your specific research area. Last year I had to choose between a #1 school and a #30 school and I went with the lower one because I honestly felt like I would have better opportunities there, and I still feel like that's true. There are a lot of factors to consider.

The advise I got from professors when I was making my decision was that the most important factor is who your advisor will be. If your advisor is well-connected, then having their recommendation can do more to get you a job than the name of your school. Keep in mind that there are dozens of extremely good professors in any research community, yet generally any one school will only have one or two of those professors, so there are certainly top professors at lower-ranked schools (but which schools depends on your field - I'm not saying every lower-ranked school is just as good).

I'm told that the most important qualification when applying for PhD-level jobs is your publication record, so it's important to go to the school where you think you'll be most productive. This means having a good advisor as well as being in a collaborative environment, the ability to push your own ideas forward, etc. Of course, one difference that the ranking can make in applying for jobs is that applicants from lesser-known schools might be filtered out before the application is even considered. As long as your school is well-regarded enough that people will look at your application, having an exceptionally strong CV should have a stronger impact than having an okay CV from a top school.

Someone mentioned that teaching experience is important for academic jobs, yet can be hard to get. That's another reason I chose the school I did - they let you teach your own courses, which is much better experience than being a TA. Try to find out what perks and opportunities are available at whatever schools you end up choosing between.

[BKMD]

Another thing you should do when deciding is look at the alumni webpages from the schools and see what kinds of jobs their graduates have gotten. (And if they don't give this information then that's probably not a good sign.) You might also find that some schools tend to send more people into industry while others send people into academia, so you should figure out which kinds of jobs the schools are connected to and choose the one that fits with your career goals.

[Strangefox]

I want to thank everybody for their opinions!

Though I am still somewhat confused about the importance of ranking, your experience and your advice have given me a lot to think about!