Advised by an assistant professor

[beanbagchairs]

One of of the options I have involves a situation where I will be advised by an assistant professor. Several people told me to get *only* tenured professors as mentors. The thing is:

1) I really like this assistant professor's research (a great fit)

2) This assist. prof belongs to a GREAT program --if not the best--.

3) When asked about the possibility to be co-advised, the assist. prof is open to the idea.

The down side would be:

1) The assist. prof may not get the tenure (what will happen to me?)

Aside from this whole thing about tenure, I am really interested in working with this assist. prof.

I'd appreciate any advice from GC members

Edited February 23, 2011 by shashakoe

[LJK]

Where is this prof in the process? If s/he is brand new, you will be able to defend before they come up for tenure so getting it or not won't effect your time as a graduate student (though there is the issue of recommendations after you graduate). If they are further along, you can ask a tenured professor to be frank with you about the assist. prof's chances of getting tenure. If you are being co-advised that will mitigate the risk to you as someone else will know what you are doing and you will be able to keep going on your project(s) without much interruption should the assist. prof leave.

[UnlikelyGrad]

One of of the options I have involves a situation where I will be advised by an assistant professor. Several people told me to get *only* tenured professors as mentors. The thing is:

1) I really like this assistant professor's research (a great fit)

2) This assist. prof belongs to a GREAT program --if not the best--.

3) When asked about the possibility to be co-advised, the assist. prof is open to the idea.

The down side would be:

1) The assist. prof may not get the tenure (what will happen to me?)

Aside from this whole thing about tenure, I am really interested in working with this assist. prof.

I'd appreciate any advice from GC members

I agree with LJK's assessment. Also, I think insisting on being co-advised is an absolute must in this situation. Not just because you have a "back-up advisor" but because more senior profs tend to have bigger networks...and networking is one thing your mentor has to help you do.

[Eigen]

Look at the departments track record of giving tenure. I know in my department they've only booted one prof in the last 30 years or so.

My boss isn't tenured yet, but we're on a 7/8 year TT, so I know I'll be gone before it even becomes an issue.

I really like working for a young PI- the divide isn't so great between them and you, and young professors tend to push to get publications out a lot faster/harder than some tenured profs.I also have no problems networking- my boss has a huge network of contacts from grad school, post-docs, etc. that I have access to. It also depends on the department- some are a lot more supportive of their young PIs (and their advisees) than others.

Also keep in mind that if your boss is a "rising star" so to speak, that getting in early can be great for your career down the road.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Eigen

[beanbagchairs]

The assistant prof in question joined the university in 2008. I am still confused about this tenure review.

1) Is there any fixed timeline for pre-tenure (i.e., 5 years, 7 years, etc)?

2) How many tenure reviews a TT professor needs to "pass" to become a fully tenured professor?

3) Is it a sensitive issue to raise with potential PoI (i.e., pointing out to the possibility of me being mentorless if the PoI fails to get tenure)?

4) I am just trying to be cautious here. I am *very* interested to work with this PoI. I am just afraid to offend the PoI if I raise this issue; but it is a very important matter!!

thoughts on this?

Thanks

Edited February 23, 2011 by shashakoe

[LJK]

The assistant prof in question joined the university in 2008. I am still confused about this tenure review.

1) Is there any fixed timeline for pre-tenure (i.e., 5 years, 7 years, etc)?

2) How many tenure reviews a TT professor needs to "pass" to become a fully tenured professor?

3) Is it a sensitive issue to raise with potential PoI (i.e., pointing out to the possibility of me being mentorless if the PoI fails to get tenure)?

4) I am just trying to be cautious here. I am *very* interested to work with this PoI. I am just afraid to offend the PoI if I raise this issue; but it is a very important matter!!

thoughts on this?

Thanks

1) The exact timeline can vary a bit but it is generally 5 or 6 years after hiring so this prof is likely to come up for tenure in '13 or '14. If s/he had a medical leave or had a new baby (as a mom or as a dad depending on the school) that can 'stop' the tenure clock for a time, pushing the review back.

2) When the prof comes up for tenure review, they either get it or they don't is my understanding. That one review in the 5th/6th year is when they receive tenure and become an associate professor. There is still room to be promoted to straight 'Professor' but generally associate professors have tenure (there is a little bit of wiggle room for people hired into an associate professor position who then immediately go into tenure review, but generally associate=tenure).

3/4) It could be a touchy topic but you can present it right: "I'm very interested in working with you, but I am concerned about the fact that you are an assistant professor rather than a tenured professor, as the advise I have been getting is to go with a tenured professor. I know that this can be a touchy topic but I want to have as much information as possible before making my decision. I know that at this point you haven't come up for review. When do you go up for review? What would be the plan for me if the unthinkable happens and you don't get tenure?" I would also broach the topic with other professors or current graduate students. They would know how the professor is doing relative to the universities tenure standards. At some places you can be doing good steady work and not get tenure and at some you would get it. The fact that this is one of the best programs might mean that tenure is harder for the prof to get. I think that being concerned about this and asking the right questions shows that you are serious and thoughtful.

Edit: I would consider emailing the graduate director or the department chair to get a 'official' idea of what is going on with this prof in addition to less formal opinions. That way if they make any assurances that you will be taken care of should you come and the prof not get tenure, you have it in electronic writing.

Edited February 23, 2011 by LJK

[repatriate]

I think that there are a couple of things you should consider when deciding on this issue.

First, not getting tenure is not the only reason an assistant prof may leave the university. There is the possibility that, recognizing s/he won't get tenure at this institution, the prof may leave within a few years of the tenure review process for a lower-tier school where the requirements for tenure are lower. There is also a practice in some fields for those facing promotion to shop around for other offers in order to get a good retention package from their "home" school. That is, they apply to a bunch of positions in hopes that their school will offer not only tenure but also a substantial raise in order to keep the prof. If the retention offer isn't good enough, or if another school gives an offer the prof really likes, the prof may end up taking one of these other offers and leaving the school where they were pre-tenure.

A way of framing the question about the likelihood of the prof sticking around might be to ask about their intentions to look for offers elsewhere around tenure-time, thereby implying that you think they are so awesome they will be able to get good competitive offers, rather than implying you think they might not meet the standards for tenure.

Second, pre-tenure faculty are highly driven by the high standards they have to meet for tenure. This means that they are especially sensitive to the productivity and pace of their graduate students' work. If working under pressure motivates you, working for an assistant prof could be great. But if high-pressure situations backfire for you and cause you to lose productivity, the situation might not work. You can probably get a feel for this from their current students and/or how they talk about their current students.

Third, pre-tenure faculty are generally green advisors and managers. They may not have a lot of experience with communicating expectations or other management/advising skills. That's not to say they will be poor advisors, but it will probably take some assertiveness and tact to ask for things you need (e.g., more feedback, clarification of goals), so if you are not comfortable with "upward management" you may have trouble getting what you need out of an assistant prof.

[Strangefox]

There is still room to be promoted to straight 'Professor' but generally associate professors have tenure (there is a little bit of wiggle room for people hired into an associate professor position who then immediately go into tenure review, but generally associate=tenure).

I've already asked about that in another thread and I already got an answer so sorry for repeating it

It's just that this tenure thing is still confusing to me

So associate professor means tenured professor, but not always?? How do I know if my POI, who is an associate professor, is tenured? I would not like to ask it directly... I might ask a student from their department, I guess....

Another thing - if an associate prof and just professor are both tenured - what's the difference? Full professor must be cooler, I get that. And what about details? Do professors get more money, have more priveledges than associate professors?

[neuropsychosocial]

The assistant prof in question joined the university in 2008. I am still confused about this tenure review.

1) Is there any fixed timeline for pre-tenure (i.e., 5 years, 7 years, etc)?

2) How many tenure reviews a TT professor needs to "pass" to become a fully tenured professor?

3) Is it a sensitive issue to raise with potential PoI (i.e., pointing out to the possibility of me being mentorless if the PoI fails to get tenure)?

4) I am just trying to be cautious here. I am *very* interested to work with this PoI. I am just afraid to offend the PoI if I raise this issue; but it is a very important matter!!

1 - As LJK mentioned, it's usually six years, although some professors will get credit for years at a previous institution, and some schools allow professors to "stop the clock" for maternity/paternity leave, so the professor might go up in their seventh or eighth year.

2 - This varies widely by school. I've been a third year review, then tenure review at sixth year. I've seen a second year, fourth year, and then tenure review at sixth year. I've seen just a fourth year review before a tenure review. The depth of these reviews varies, as well. Some schools have only internal reviews, no outside letters about scholarship; some look only at research or only at teaching at a given pre-tenure review. Some are designed solely to give advice (right now, your teaching and research are on track, but we're concerned about your service), while other schools actively fire people at the pre-tenure review.

If you ask about the tenure clock at the institution in question, I think that will look really good. You could even phrase it generally, in the third person, without saying "you." ("At X university, what does the tenure process look like?")

3 - Double-edged question: I think that it might be a sensitive area, but I think that it would also demonstrate that you understand academia and that you're doing due-diligence, which I think would make you look very good. If you bring it up in a very polite way, framed in terms of your own timeframe for graduating, I think that you would not offend a professor, who knows perfectly well that she/he is not tenured. Check the graduate handbook of your potential program and see if it allows Ph.D. committees to be chaired by assistant professors. (Many schools allow master's committee to be chaired by assistant profs, but not doctoral committees.) Ask if your POI expects to have a tenure decision before you'll move to Ph.D. candidacy. Ask if the POI anticipates either junior sabatical (some places give it, some don't) or a post-tenure sabbatical during your time at the school. Most professors go on their first full, senior sabbatical in their seventh year, which would mean the year after tenure for most people. (If they don't get tenure, generally their sabbatical is canceled and they have to teach during that year.) You could also ask the DGS or department chair directly, if your POI leaves, will someone else step up to chair your work or are you out of luck. The problem with that is that someone might be willing to chair, but also demand crazy revisions, which is one reason to consider the double-mentoring. The department chair or DGS might also be willing to answer a question about how often assistant professors receive tenure in Y department.

4 - I understand your concerns. They are very legitimate. I really think that if you're polite and sensitive, you won't offer the POI. This is *your life* that you're thinking about, and taking the risk of offending someone with some reasonable questions to make sure that you will have the chance to finish your degree is probably worthwhile. Just don't email and say, "You're not good enough to be tenured at X University. What happens to me after that?"

[nhyn]

What I did was ask point-blank whether my POI intended to remain at the school in the next 5 years. My POI (an assistant prof) got back to me with candid answers and was completely sympathetic with my concern - so I guess what I'm saying is just ask if that assistant prof thinks that s/he might not be able to follow through with you, then you might want to be co-advised by someone else or choose the tenured POI at a different school. BUT, I've also have heard of cases where grad students follow faculty to the new school, or, if the school is in the same area, and the student is in his last/second to last year of his PhD, then it's entirely possible to meet once in a while and talk through emails. I've talked to a PhD whose advisor moved to Berkeley while he was still at UC Davis, and another PhD whose advisor moved to a different school in the same city. All worked out fine

Edited February 23, 2011 by nhyn

[Eigen]

The assistant prof in question joined the university in 2008. I am still confused about this tenure review.

1) Is there any fixed timeline for pre-tenure (i.e., 5 years, 7 years, etc)?

2) How many tenure reviews a TT professor needs to "pass" to become a fully tenured professor?

3) Is it a sensitive issue to raise with potential PoI (i.e., pointing out to the possibility of me being mentorless if the PoI fails to get tenure)?

4) I am just trying to be cautious here. I am *very* interested to work with this PoI. I am just afraid to offend the PoI if I raise this issue; but it is a very important matter!!

thoughts on this?

Thanks

Very field and school dependent. A lot of schools now have several attempts to make tenure- ours is a 7 year tenure clock, but you can apply 6th, 7th and 8th years- and you have three shots at it. So starting in 2008, a prof here could apply first in 2014 (but most would wait until 2015), and then they'd have a second shot in 2016 if they didn't make it in 2015.

I think it can be a sensitive issue, but I would honestly raise it with someone other than the PI. I asked the department head about it, personally- it was easier to ask point blank with him- "I'm interested in working with Prof XX, but they aren't tenured- how long do they have, and what happens if they don't get tenure?"

As to young PIs leaving for other reasons- if they get hired away, it is usually part of the package to include funding for all of their current graduate students at the new institution. I've had this happen with friends, they always moved with their PI.

Strangefox: As to Assistant/Associate- TT professors can be hired as either an Assistant TT or an Associate TT to start out with- Associate does not guarantee they have tenure.

If you're more interested in reading about the Tenure Track, I'd check out the Chronicle of Higher Ed forums- specifically the Tenure Track subforum.

Edited February 23, 2011 by Eigen

[qbtacoma]

What an excellent topic. Thanks to everyone who replied - I'm in a similar situation to the OP in that most of the professors I want to work with are not yet tenured, so this was a good topic to read.

[LJK]

I've already asked about that in another thread and I already got an answer so sorry for repeating it

It's just that this tenure thing is still confusing to me

So associate professor means tenured professor, but not always?? How do I know if my POI, who is an associate professor, is tenured? I would not like to ask it directly... I might ask a student from their department, I guess....

Another thing - if an associate prof and just professor are both tenured - what's the difference? Full professor must be cooler, I get that. And what about details? Do professors get more money, have more priveledges than associate professors?

As a general rule, associate professors are tenured. If the professor was an assistant professor at the same university, it would be really strange for the department to promote them to associate but not give them tenure (though I won't claim it can't happen, it would just have to be a very strange set of circumstances). If a 4th/5th/6th year assistant professor gets hired to a new university, they may be hired as an associate professor and do the tenure review very soon after arriving. The hiring of a professor as an associate professor pre-tenure implies that the department expects to be giving the professor tenure in short order. So you can generally infer that associate professors have tenure, and if they don't they are very likely to get it and not much of a risk.

As for associate vs. full professor, its a promotion. There are some committees that only full professors are able to be members of. There are some positions such as department chair (depending on the specific department's rules) that may only be open to full professors. I think it is also a way of preventing newly tenured professors from resting to much on their laurels - there is still more to strive for and more reviews to go through.

[beanbagchairs]

Thanks to all of the posters for all of your well-thought advises. I definitely need to get answers to all of my concerns. With that being said, my interest level to work this particular PoI remains high.

Comments and thoughts on this matter are still welcome!

[nhyn]

If you like, I say go for it I'm working out the details but I am going to have this POI as my advisor, as she said she wanted to stay but it's really up to the school (poor professors nowadays!), but I have another prof who's tenured and whose research is also very interesting, so I plan to keep close connections with both of these people. Plus, it's always to your benefit to collaborate with different faculty members anyway

Fear not and follow your heart!

[rising_star]

I just want to add to this a bit. I worked with an assistant professor (not tenured, but got tenure while I was there) for my master's. It was NOT a problem. I had asked before campus if that person was going to be around for a long time and was told yes, so I wasn't concerned about the professor not getting tenure or leaving for another school or something like that. And really, EVERYONE should ask if their POI is planning on sticking around and, if they don't, if you'll be able to go with them. My current advisor moved here from another school and brought along 3-4 grad students that were early in their programs.

[Strangefox]

As a general rule, associate professors are tenured. If the professor was an assistant professor at the same university, it would be really strange for the department to promote them to associate but not give them tenure (though I won't claim it can't happen, it would just have to be a very strange set of circumstances). If a 4th/5th/6th year assistant professor gets hired to a new university, they may be hired as an associate professor and do the tenure review very soon after arriving. The hiring of a professor as an associate professor pre-tenure implies that the department expects to be giving the professor tenure in short order. So you can generally infer that associate professors have tenure, and if they don't they are very likely to get it and not much of a risk.

As for associate vs. full professor, its a promotion. There are some committees that only full professors are able to be members of. There are some positions such as department chair (depending on the specific department's rules) that may only be open to full professors. I think it is also a way of preventing newly tenured professors from resting to much on their laurels - there is still more to strive for and more reviews to go through.

Thanks!

[Eigen]

As a general rule, associate professors are tenured. If the professor was an assistant professor at the same university, it would be really strange for the department to promote them to associate but not give them tenure (though I won't claim it can't happen, it would just have to be a very strange set of circumstances). If a 4th/5th/6th year assistant professor gets hired to a new university, they may be hired as an associate professor and do the tenure review very soon after arriving. The hiring of a professor as an associate professor pre-tenure implies that the department expects to be giving the professor tenure in short order. So you can generally infer that associate professors have tenure, and if they don't they are very likely to get it and not much of a risk.

As for associate vs. full professor, its a promotion. There are some committees that only full professors are able to be members of. There are some positions such as department chair (depending on the specific department's rules) that may only be open to full professors. I think it is also a way of preventing newly tenured professors from resting to much on their laurels - there is still more to strive for and more reviews to go through.

I'd be careful using this logic. On the boards I frequent that are more devoted to the academic job search/TT faculty, it seems that getting hired as an associate TT is reasonably common out of the gate, and doesn't seem to be any more indicative of ensuring they will get Tenure down the road. Assistant to Associate is a promotion with a relative pay raise- and can be part of the negotiation package. If by general rule you mean 50-60% of the time (majority) I think you're probably right... But I'd say unless they're listed as a full professor, it's better to ask (administrators, students, etc) and be sure.

Also note that in this academic job market, it's unusual for a department to hire someone they don't fully intend to grant tenure to- it can be a huge road block to obtain the funding to hire someone else should a young professor not get tenure, not to mention the "lost" research funding you've given them.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Eigen

[Strangefox]

I'd be careful using this logic. On the boards I frequent that are more devoted to the academic job search/TT faculty, it seems that getting hired as an associate TT is reasonably common out of the gate, and doesn't seem to be any more indicative of ensuring they will get Tenure down the road.

Thanks for the input!

By the way, could you name these boards that you mentioned. The Chronicle of Higher Education is probably one of them. And what about others?

[Eigen]

PhDcomics forums is the other one. It's a mix all the way through from grad to faculty.

The main one is going to the CHE forum on the Job Search, as well as the one on the Tenure Track.

I'll also note that for people moving over to posting on either forum (although mostly CHE), they are not as soft and cuddly as these forums are. Dive in with caution. Also remember that you're much more likely to encounter people on an adcom reading/posting there, as it's mostly faculty.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Eigen

[history_PhD]

Has this professor advised other graduate students? You might not want to be the guinea pig, so to speak.

[wtncffts]

PhDcomics forums is the other one. It's a mix all the way through from grad to faculty.

The main one is going to the CHE forum on the Job Search, as well as the one on the Tenure Track.

I'll also note that for people moving over to posting on either forum (although mostly CHE), they are not as soft and cuddly as these forums are. Dive in with caution. Also remember that you're much more likely to encounter people on an adcom reading/posting there, as it's mostly faculty.

I don't know, I frequent the CHE forum regularly (though I haven't registered), and at least the 'teaching' subforum, which I read the most, seems pretty 'soft' and self-congratulatory. Every time someone posts their issues, it's always the students' fault, and thereafter flows a stream of "students are so incompetent, stupid, childish, etc." reassurances. I'm not even disagreeing with that, but it seems at least as uncritical and 'support-group'-like as these forums.

[Eigen]

Depends on the thread.

Someone posted a job cover letter for TT positions a few days ago and got shredded pretty badly. Granted, this may have been due to his attitude of being slightly confrontational with the advice given, but... I also mention it because there were several suggestions by people on SCs in the same general area of copying the entire thread and forwarding it to fellow search committees to file in case they received the job application.

I've seen quite a few posts of teachers being told they screwed up by not being clear enough with their students as well.

I like the crowd over there. Maybe I should re-phrase that the environment over there is a lot more blunt than it is here.

Edited February 25, 2011 by Eigen

[Strangefox]

PhDcomics forums is the other one. It's a mix all the way through from grad to faculty.

The main one is going to the CHE forum on the Job Search, as well as the one on the Tenure Track.

I'll also note that for people moving over to posting on either forum (although mostly CHE), they are not as soft and cuddly as these forums are. Dive in with caution. Also remember that you're much more likely to encounter people on an adcom reading/posting there, as it's mostly faculty.

Thanks a lot!

And thank you for the advice about their non-cuddlyness I will remember that. Anyway, I was not going to post anything there right away. I will most probably start by reading all interesting and relevant threads, or at least as many as possible. By the end I will get the feel of this place and will be able to choose my posting stratagy there wisely

I wonder why they are so cruel there? The idea of sending search committees the tread where a person asked for help seems simply atrocious...

Is it because of the competition? Only the strongest survives, etc.??

Applying to grad school is also a competion but people here are nice and friendly, most part of them, at least....

[Strangefox]

several suggestions by people on SCs in the same general area

What is SCs?