Doubt over recommendation provider

[Luckige]

Once a professor in my school received the visit of an undergrad's mom, who was about to complain about grades. Before she could start talking, he asked her for one minute, reached for his phone, dialed a number, handed her the phone receiver and told her: "you can talk to my mother, too."

True story.

To the OP: I do think your professor handled your recommendation poorly, and you were right to go after it. I had a similar problem, and two of my letters arrived after the deadline. But the obsessive reminders and putting your mom in the middle points to immaturity.

I hope you do well nonetheless, but if you don't I am sure you will learn from this situation and become a much stronger candidate.

[Hopelessly_Neurotic]

Once a professor in my school received the visit of an undergrad's mom, who was about to complain about grades. Before she could start talking, he asked her for one minute, reached for his phone, dialed a number, handed her the phone receiver and told her: "you can talk to my mother, too."

quote]

HILARIOUS

[purplepepper]

I was actually in a very similar situation this past cycle--one of my recommenders had a very dodgy attitude from the beginning, but for some reason I believed that he would write strong letters (maybe it was because he promised) and to make a long story short, never sent them.

I know this situation can be really tough and make you really anxious. But it's important to remember to keep your composure and there is a point where, if the recommender hasn't responded to your reminders, to just give up and find someone else. Not responding to reminders probably indicates that they have no real desire to help you out (no matter how unprofessional it might be) and the letter may not be as strong as someone who gladly agrees to help.

Reminders are ok once a month if the deadline is far away, and as the deadline nears I'd say to just give them a call, let them know where you are int he application process and get a verbal acknowledgement that letters are on their way.

As for deleting them from your application, you can only do this if the letter has not been received by the school. If the school has received it, you can no longer remove it from you application.

Its a good, tough lesson to learn for next time.

[medianerd]

Any faculty member who's a good person will be honest/tactful with you and not agree to write you a letter if they can't say anything positive- in this case it sounds like the prof started out liking you, but didn't by the end.

Pestering faculty exactly the wrong thing to do, unfortunately. It doesn't really matter if your LORs are in on time- most programs will contact the faculty member personally if the due date goes way past, and they understand that fac. can be flaky about them because they're so busy.

BUT don't panic entirely! You may have messed up, but many, many programs will give you a head's up if you have a negative letter. Several people I know have had a program email them and say 'hey, this one letter is negative. Do you want to submit another?" If it's just tepid they won't do that, but a harsh one tends to get a call/email.

That said, I accidentally saw a letter I got once, after I'd been admitted to MA programs... it was 1/2 page of typos and vague statements, written by my thesis advisor who supposedly loved me. So you never know...

[dragynally]

I'm sorry this happened to you...and I'm sure that your mom calling was a final act of desperation. It is your education and I believe in the right to do what is necessary to get your application in. On that note this prof sounds SO shady. Why would she hop on YOUR project once it was almost done? Anyway I hope the best and that you find a LOR writer that is a lot more trustworthy. I have my fingers crossed for you.

[mws17]

I had a problem with recommendation letters as well but my situation was quite different. One of my providers had to go abroad soon before the deadline so I sent an e-mail to the admission office that I was not sure he would send his letter in time and asked them if I could send an additional recommendation letter and I would take up on their decision. They told me it would NOT deter my application. Maybe you can send 3 letters (if that's the number of letters you're supposed to send) disregard another one you asked and not sure if she's written you a good one. And if the admission office chose your 3 out of 4 there's still a good chance that either an important one OR the one who knows you well will be randomly chosen. Fair?

[skinkididoo]

I had a somewhat similar situation: My academic adviser was writing one of my recs for me, for a fellowship, and the due date of the fellowship came around and went by without him submitting anything. He's really hard to contact (not often in his office, no one knows where else he would be). However, even in the thick of it I didn't send twice-a-day emails - either he's gonna check his inbox, or he's not. Luckily, the deadline was extended for a week and he still got it in on time (and if he hadn't, I would have just contacted the fellowship and let them know the situation). Turns out he was having trouble with the online submission system and getting frustrated. My other two profs didn't have any trouble, but he found the instructions confusing... (to be fair, the application format was pretty awful for my part of the app, too) It was a pretty stressful week... However, I'm confident that it was a good recommendation, so it was worth it.

I agree with other posters that the hands-off attitude of the adviser should have been a red flag. All my recommenders were enthusiastic to be able to help me out. Also definitely worth it to get a 4th rec and explain your situation to admissions. You've got nothing to lose (they either will or won't read the 4th rec, you can't control whether or not they read anything from your adviser)

[HisRoyalHighness]

I told all my recommenders to send me a copy of the recommendation after they sent it in. I told them if they didn't feel comfortable doing so then I'd find another recommender. I did this because I've heard stories about recommenders who trash students in their letters - I even know someone on an admissions committee who this year read a "recommendation" letter from a prof who called the student "lazy" and said their craftsmanship was "poor." So my advice is to make very clear to your recommender that you're looking for a strong recommendation letter and if they don't feel they can provide it then no hard feelings - you'll get another. Better safe than sorry.

[belowthree]

I told all my recommenders to send me a copy of the recommendation after they sent it in. I told them if they didn't feel comfortable doing so then I'd find another recommender. I did this because I've heard stories about recommenders who trash students in their letters - I even know someone on an admissions committee who this year read a "recommendation" letter from a prof who called the student "lazy" and said their craftsmanship was "poor." So my advice is to make very clear to your recommender that you're looking for a strong recommendation letter and if they don't feel they can provide it then no hard feelings - you'll get another. Better safe than sorry.

That seems like a dick move... I'm sure if you handle it with enough tact then maybe it would work out, but I imagine there's plenty of professors who would happily tell you to take a flying leap even if their rec letter was going to be strong. Maybe our fields are different, but I can think of several professors in mine who would happily tell a student to shove off if they made such demands. As it should be, I think...

[mlle]

That seems like a dick move... I'm sure if you handle it with enough tact then maybe it would work out, but I imagine there's plenty of professors who would happily tell you to take a flying leap even if their rec letter was going to be strong. Maybe our fields are different, but I can think of several professors in mine who would happily tell a student to shove off if they made such demands. As it should be, I think...

Well, when the poster is going into a field like "security studies," I suppose hypervigilance on his part re: recommendation content would be characteristic :wink:

Okay, enough of the bad jokes....I have homework to do that I'm not doing.

[belowthree]

Well, when the poster is going into a field like "security studies," I suppose hypervigilance on his part re: recommendation content would be characteristic :wink:

Okay, enough of the bad jokes....I have homework to do that I'm not doing.

Heh, I thought about that... I'm in computer security and we bleed occasionally over in the non-computer part of security as well. But I think then that any professor in that field would also be even more likely to maintain the security of their rec letters.

[HisRoyalHighness]

That seems like a dick move... I'm sure if you handle it with enough tact then maybe it would work out, but I imagine there's plenty of professors who would happily tell you to take a flying leap even if their rec letter was going to be strong. Maybe our fields are different, but I can think of several professors in mine who would happily tell a student to shove off if they made such demands. As it should be, I think...

It's interesting. Recommendation letters are one of the last bastions of academic secrecy. Corporations aren't allowed to keep references secret so why should professors be allowed to to do so? I provided an example (and there are thousands, if not tens of thousands) of a professor who told a student they would write a RECOMMENDATION letter and then slammed the student behind their back, possibly costing them admittance to their chosen program. And you feel that asking a professor for full transparency to ensure the same thing doesn't happen to you is a "dick move?"

I stand by what I write and I don't see why professors shouldn't do the same. It's pretty simple for them to turn down requests for recommendations instead of agreeing to write one and then trash-talking an applicant, which strikes me as not only extremely cowardly (why not tell them to their face?) but also far more of a "dick move" than asking for a copy (which some schools will allow you to see anyway).

[belowthree]

There seems to be two camps of applicants: the first camp believes that letters of recommendation are a hurdle they just have to pass and they need to figure out three professors who will vouch for them to complete their application. These people view letters of rec as an annoying requirement that's painful and takes a lot of time. Their goal is to get their letters, move on and avoid getting bad letters. The latter camp of applicants view letters of recommendation as an opportunity to provide admissions committees with the information that actually matters. For the most part people in this camp face the decision of having to figure out which professors would provide the best recommendations and choosing people carefully to provide a broad view of the applicant from the most diverse perspectives. The former camp generally wants the process of getting letters of rec to be easier, less of a hassle and less fraught with problems that could provide downsides to their applications. The latter camp actually understands that if everyone got only excellent letters of rec they're absolutely meaningless and there's an actual reason the letters of rec are important. Unfortunately for the people in the former camp, most professors are in the latter, so don't expect the expectation of confidentiality to evaporate overnight.

I called it a dick move because I think it's rude to demand they give you a copy of their letter when you're asking them for a favor. I understand your reasons for wanting to do it, but you shouldn't be asking anyone who might give you a bad letter in the first place. I agree that professors should tell people what they think of them honestly and not just trash talk an applicant in their letter.

But at the same time every professor I asked to recommend me did so knowing that they could be honest with any admissions committees they sent a letter to. I asked them to do me the favor of taking some time to assess me, judge me and write up the results of that and send it to their colleagues. They shouldn't have to answer to what I think of their letters. This is something I value and if they're saying good things about me I want it to be because they honestly think good things and not just because they don't want to have to deal with what I might think when I read the letter later. In some ways, demanding that letters of rec be more public undermines the ability for professors to actually write helpful letters of rec.

If it turns out that they don't think very well of me then that's a fairly serious error in my own judgment and I shouldn't have asked them to judge me. Yes, it's normally polite for them to politely tell you that they aren't comfortable writing you a letter if a student makes the error of asking the wrong person for a rec, but this is a courtesy to cover up for the requester's error in judgment.

[HisRoyalHighness]

But at the same time every professor I asked to recommend me did so knowing that they could be honest with any admissions committees they sent a letter to. I asked them to do me the favor of taking some time to assess me, judge me and write up the results of that and send it to their colleagues. They shouldn't have to answer to what I think of their letters. If it turns out that they don't think very well of me then that's a fairly serious error in my own judgment and I shouldn't have asked them to judge me.

I understand and I think we're in agreement. Part of my reason for asking was because I really wanted to see what they said. I knew they wouldn't write anything negative but I wanted to see how positive - I guess it's the voyeur in me :shock: I didn't put it to them like "Give me a copy or else" but I did ask that after they sent in the recommendation they please mail me a copy. All three (two professors and a former supervisor) agreed. And I have to say I'm glad I did - the letters were incredible and really added to my own sense of self-confidence. Were they not so goodI wouldn't have confronted the writer - I would simply have not asked them to write another.

I guess it's up to the individual but as the person who started this thread shows - some recommenders can be real dicks and their dishonesty can cost you dearly.

[Jakrabite]

I had a similar problem with my apps but that was because my professor was traveling for some conference in Europe. I sent him a couple of mails as the deadline approached and then called the univ's concerned. The uni's said that a week late is not a problem, which I conveyed to the professor and everything worked out A-ok.

But then again, this prof is quite friendly and I know he won't screw me over. I chose not to get a recommendation from my research advisor because he is known to give mediocre reco's.

Hang in there. I know how horrible this recommendation process can be. Hopefully everything will work out for you.

[medianerd]

That seems like a dick move... I'm sure if you handle it with enough tact then maybe it would work out, but I imagine there's plenty of professors who would happily tell you to take a flying leap even if their rec letter was going to be strong. Maybe our fields are different, but I can think of several professors in mine who would happily tell a student to shove off if they made such demands. As it should be, I think...

Also, most grad programs won't seriously consider a letter if the applicant doesn't waive their right to see it. The sense is that the recommender will not feel free to be candid. I was told several times if I felt I needed to see the letter, I needed a different recommender.

[barry_86404]

I only ask people who i know will give me great recommendations thus I always check the box that says I don't want to see it because it shouldnt be seen by me. If your worried about someone giving you a bad one maybe you should of asked someone else who you dont have to worry about.

[illinoisellie]

I was told right away by books (the one by Donald Asher) and my professors to ask if the person could write me "a good letter of recommendation."

I definitely asked this of my professors, but I can totally see if you had no other choice and HAD to get a letter of rec from someone. I had to get one from someone who probably did not write me a very good letter (judging from how he disregarded my deadlines and partially screwed up my senior thesis) , but it was my only business experience.

My advice to others: BEWARE the individuals who say "yes" to everything - try to figure out if they do this before you ask them for help.

[fields&charts]

y HisRoyalHighness on Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:32 pm

I told all my recommenders to send me a copy of the recommendation after they sent it in. I told them if they didn't feel comfortable doing so then I'd find another recommender. I did this because I've heard stories about recommenders who trash students in their letters - I even know someone on an admissions committee who this year read a "recommendation" letter from a prof who called the student "lazy" and said their craftsmanship was "poor." So my advice is to make very clear to your recommender that you're looking for a strong recommendation letter and if they don't feel they can provide it then no hard feelings - you'll get another. Better safe than sorry.

Yeah, I don't know. The whole process can kind of be iffy. A few years ago I tried to apply to a handful of programs an did more or less what you just said. One school told me "quite frankly your writing sample, grades, test scores, and statement were all quite good, but your recommendations were the worst I've ever seen (and I've been in admissions for 20 years). I'd recommend never speaking to those folks again except for your department head who wrote you a really great letter." Basically two out of three people wrote gibberish. Another program said that they couldn't even tell what they were reading. This was after many phone calls/visits to offices/emails saying "if you don't feel that you can write it, please tell me". I just don't understand why people, when given an easy way out of doing something, choose to instead do something harmful and fairly traumatizing.

[Tonights]

I just don't understand why people, when given an easy way out of doing something, choose to instead do something harmful and fairly traumatizing.

Me either. Some of these stories have really made my blood run cold.

[illinoisellie]

Yeah, I don't know. The whole process can kind of be iffy. A few years ago I tried to apply to a handful of programs an did more or less what you just said. One school told me "quite frankly your writing sample, grades, test scores, and statement were all quite good, but your recommendations were the worst I've ever seen (and I've been in admissions for 20 years). I'd recommend never speaking to those folks again except for your department head who wrote you a really great letter." Basically two out of three people wrote gibberish. Another program said that they couldn't even tell what they were reading. This was after many phone calls/visits to offices/emails saying "if you don't feel that you can write it, please tell me". I just don't understand why people, when given an easy way out of doing something, choose to instead do something harmful and fairly traumatizing.

Did you do research with these profs??? Or did you just take a couple classes with them?

Jeez!!

[belowthree]

Also, most grad programs won't seriously consider a letter if the applicant doesn't waive their right to see it. The sense is that the recommender will not feel free to be candid. I was told several times if I felt I needed to see the letter, I needed a different recommender.

The applicant waiving their right to force a program to divulge the letter is entirely different from whether or not the applicant actually ends up seeing it. It's fairly important to remember this distinction. Nothing about waiving your right to view a letter prevents a professor from giving a letter to a student or even, in some cases, asking a prof to give you a letter to read...

[MDLee]

I am in a really weird situation right now, thought I should post it up somewhere and get opinions.

I was developing my master's thesis into a scientific paper and I got no help from my supervisor, she was not at all concerned about it. I wrote it all by myself. Later she said, she wanted to be the second author and would help me out.

After I started applying to universities, I asked her to be my recommendation provider, which she agreed to. This was pure out of courtesy, as I wanted her to help me out.

I sent notifications to her 2 months before the deadline, a month before, every week and twice a day of the last week, till ultimately, I got my Mom (imagine my embarrassment) to call her and ask her to send it in.

For my last application, I begged her to send it in. I told her the last date was 25th Jan (it was actually 1st Feb). Now the recommendation was supposed to be sent by email to the university, and I don't have any notification that it has been sent. So now my 'Prof' said she has forgotten if she had sent it in. When I asked her to check, she says I better look for another recommendation provider.

I am thinking she might not have sent a good recommendation to the universities. Is it possible for me to call up and ask them to remove her recco and then I can ask another professor who knows me well, to submit a new one? I really am disturbed right now, I just applied to 4 univs and I don't want it to be ruined.

Sheesh. I had a rec provider who is so busy working on his own book that he MISSED the deadline for Yale and I had to beg an extension. I gave him/everyone 3 weeks notice of everything and he had known all semester I was going to be needing this from him. He was absolutely disinterested and MIA when I needed him. I got emails from Clark and UC-SD that he had not sent in the letters on time so begged extensions there too. Upset? You bet I am. I feel your pain. And I'm stuck with this prof on my committee...and my chair expects me to get his input. What input? He's been ignoring me for the past three months!! :roll: