Quality of undergrad?

[TryingAwfullyHard]

I went to a small, public school that barely anyone has heard of. I did fairly well there (3.8 major/3.64 cumulative) and I have good GRE scores (97% Verbal 5.0 AW). I will have stellar recs and I'm confident that my writing sample is strong. The thing I'm most worried about is that the (lack of) prestige at my undergrad institution is going to hurt me. I'm applying to very good programs, and, like everyone else, I'm freaking out. I have this nagging fear that I'm going to get placed into the "not top-tier" pile. Someone help me out here. Anyone come from a little known school and get into a top English program? Ph.D. or M.A.

Thanks!

Edited January 8, 2012 by TryingAwfullyHard

[bigdgp]

TryingAwfullyHard,

I went to a state flagship university, but it is ranked just outside the top 100 nationally. I had similar numbers (although you did a few percentile points better than I did on the Verbal GRE). I applied to 10 schools and got into 4, one that is in the top handful in the world (overseas), two in the USNWR top 35 and one (where I ended up accepting the offer) that isn't terribly high on USNRW, but that has a very strong reputation and placement record in my field. I did an MA with students who had an Ivy league degree who didn't get as many admits. This is partly because these students applied almost exclusively to top 25 schools, so take that for what it's worth. I think the success of your application season depends on how you define "top-tier." If this means top 25 or bust, then it might be tricky. The difference between a student getting into a program in the top 25 and one in the top 50 often can be dependent upon such fickle factors as which professors have space to take on an advisee in any given year. A better approach than "top-tier" thinking is to consider the strength and reputation of a department in a particular subfield. For example, Purdue isn't terribly high in the USNRW rankings, but the English dept. at Purdue has a very strong track record in digital humanities. Thus, some may not call Purdue's English program "top-tier," their digital humanities sub-topic is "top-tier." Digital humanities is not my field, I'm just trying to provide an example. In my case, I got into three programs ranked fairly high on departmental ranking lists and another that isn't as high but has a better reputation in my particular field than any of the other three. I accepted the latter because it will prepare me for what I want to do better than the other schools will and it has professors more established in their field who have better connections and more impressive names.

Edited January 8, 2012 by bigdgp

[user_name]

i'll have an answer to that in a few months. my school wasn't small, but isn't rank and is (or was) kind of known as a commuter school. also, i don't think i was at the top of my class, but i did get deparmental honors.

maybe the few years off and sop/writing sample will do something for me...

[rawera]

The anecdotal evidence I've heard from two friends who are now in graduate programs, English and Biophysics in top programs, is that they're easily the dumbest people in their program, everyone wants them to know it, and they're the token state school students in the program. Both attended public, large universities in the state. A state where education is alright...but it's the south.

Some programs, Buffalo, I think, explicitly de-emphasize undergrad prestige on the admissions website. That said, I'm not expecting anyone to see my undergrad institution and stop the presses or whatever. But I am willing to be that one public school student who didn't grow up learning latin or greek or piano in prep school.

[Mr Grimwig]

I get the feeling one's undergraduate pedigree does not matter immensely. Perhaps if you were in a dead heat with another applicant---similar writing skills and interests, equally good "fit", scores, and GPA----and the only difference was your undergraduate institution (a little-known school vs. a top 50), then you might be hurt.

Almost all the programs I've applied to had a Current Graduate Students list on their websites, complete with background info about their academic history. Of course there were plenty of students who had done their undergraduate degree at the Ivies, but there were plenty more who came from obscure places. I guess that is as good an indicator as any regarding a particular program's willingness to accept students from various strata of academia.

[Phil Sparrow]

EVERYONE feels like the dumbest person in his or her program. Those anecdotes don't mean a whole lot. Some student who did her undergrad at Harvard no doubt feels equally stupid all the time. That's the nature of graduate school.

Also, WTF does the South have to do with this at all? Here are some southern public schools: UVa, UNC, Georgia Tech, William & Mary. It is absurd to assume that because "it's [in] the south" one's education is "alright" at best. Bless your heart if that's the kind of ignorant assumption you're set on making.

The anecdotal evidence I've heard from two friends who are now in graduate programs, English and Biophysics in top programs, is that they're easily the dumbest people in their program, everyone wants them to know it, and they're the token state school students in the program. Both attended public, large universities in the state. A state where education is alright...but it's the south.

Some programs, Buffalo, I think, explicitly de-emphasize undergrad prestige on the admissions website. That said, I'm not expecting anyone to see my undergrad institution and stop the presses or whatever. But I am willing to be that one public school student who didn't grow up learning latin or greek or piano in prep school.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Phil Sparrow

[ecritdansleau]

Like others above, I don't really have any conclusive answers to the OP's primary question because this is my first year applying, and it seems like the forum is much more highly populated by current applicants than applicants already attending. (You might want to try asking this on livejournal's applyingtograd community?)

Another thing to consider is not merely the "prestige" of your undergraduate institution but perhaps the caliber and research output of English faculty there. Some top 25 English programs have English departments that are number-wise much more highly ranked than the university as a whole (if those rankings even mean anything).

[Sparky]

At my school, both in my dept and in related departments, undergrad/MA prestige *can* be a factor, though it's a somewhat zigzaggy relationship. The major situations where it can help are: (1) If you were able to cultivate a strong relationship with an academic rock star who then wrote one of your LORs. Though there are fantastic profs and hyperfamous scholars at all sorts of schools, they are more likely to be at top universities and colleges. (2) If people from your alma mater have already attended/are attending a program to which you are applying, provided they have been successful and pleasant to be around, it can boost your own application. Again, this could absolutely apply to any school, but it is more likely to happen with top schools.

People here come from the full variety of undergrad schools, from Hickville State U Branch Campus to Ivy League. MA holders also come from a variety of programs, though generally (not without exception, though) those are better schools on average than our undergrads. (My BA and MA are in the Unexceptional U category--not great, not bad.)

Also, +1,000 to Phil Sparrow.

[ecritdansleau]

For what it's worth, I did have an undergraduate peer in another humanities discipline who made quite a jump according to prestige. His particular discipline (philosophy) has its own unofficial (non-USWNR) ranking carried out by faculty member evaluators. The philosophy program at my undergrad is technically unranked on this unofficial report (they don't report rankings over the top 50 for some reason). The student was accepted into Harvard (a #5 program in phil) during his second attempt at graduate applications. So, yes, it's not impossible. But from what I've gauged, most Ph.D. students at, say, top ten programs are students from top schools and small, well-regarded liberal arts colleges. (I have a hunch that undergrads in smaller programs--on the whole--are more likely to have cultivated strong relations with professors, and thus have strong letters, because a small undergrad department often requires students to take multiple classes with the same professor. At some public universities with giant departments and tons of TA instructors, an undergraduate student has to more proactive about actively choosing courses with actual professors and develop that professional/advising relationship over time or they will easily get lost in the mix.)

Maybe the important question that emerges though, is, how can a student not attending a "top undergrad program" develop strong records and competitive application materials for graduate programs in a much more highly specialized discipline? There is also the problem of the fish-barrel shock. Most serious applicants to graduate programs have high numbers, high GPAs. Many here have long identified themselves, conceived of themselves as very strong students with really high grades. But these qualifications will not really make you stand out. It's what is different about you (your research strengths, writing sample) that will get the attention of the adcom. Realistically, professors at top schools "get it" in ways that professors from other schools don't "get it", and can relay this advice to their undergraduate students applying to graduate school. Whatever it means to "get it" I am still very actively trying to understand.

Edited January 9, 2012 by ecritdansleau

[lolopixie]

I went to 2 schools in the South - North Carolina to be specific - for my undergrad and MA programs. Each University had a very large portion of the faculty coming from top 20 schools. I feel my education is not mediocre in the slightest because I come from and have been educated in the South. Yes, the NC public school system (as far as K-12 goes) is shitty at best, but there are some great Universities here: Wake Forest, Duke, UNC...schools that many people on this board are dreaming of getting into. Now, I did not attend any of these Universites named; however, I have been taught by professors that earned their degrees at these programs, and Yale, Harvard, UCLA, CUNY....but I guess that doesn't matter either. I guess us old hicks don't know a gerd dern thang about nuthin cuz all we knows how to do is grow tobaccy and get happy bout that there indoor plumbing being installed next week.

[lyonessrampant]

I came from a tiny, tiny liberal arts college in Montana, and I do think that hurt when I first applied. However, I was offered a position at Notre Dame and only applied to Notre Dame, Harvard, Penn, UChicago, and Cambridge. . .so I don't think that really speaks to anything. I was young, naive, and had no idea how hard this whole grad school thing was/is. The benefits: really strong LORs, though not from rock stars. Tons of diverse classes and a really, really solid foundation, which translated into high test scores. A feeling of well-being and support because of personal attention. Disadvantages: Name recognition, real preparation for applying to graduate school, and a sense of how competitive things really are. For me, the benefits outweighed the costs. I did an MA to be with my partner and am now in a graduate program I love working with rock star faculty in my subfield. I don't think the name recognition will play a HUGE role, but like others said, it might make a difference on the bottom line. It may also affect how hard a school goes for you. One girl in my cohort has her BA from Harvard. She got a full-year fellowship while most of the rest of us got 1/2 year fellowships (or none at all), and while she's very nice, lots of other people had more accomplishments. However, having a Harvard grad in your cohort matters (I think) for a large state school. I say this only to say that it mighe fiht make a difference where you're from when it comes to prioritizing highest funding packages or something, but largely, I think it is the quality of your research, the potential you have for strong scholarship, and the fit you have with the department that makes the most difference. Bottom line: If you're applying, you can't do anything about where you got your BA from, so don't stress about it. Focus on your writing, developing innovative research approaches, and establishing a clear fit between yourself and the department you are applying to. Those things, in my experience, matter the most. Best of luck to you all!

[Two Espressos]

For what it's worth, I did have an undergraduate peer in another humanities discipline who made quite a jump according to prestige. His particular discipline (philosophy) has its own unofficial (non-USWNR) ranking carried out by faculty member evaluators.

Ah, Leiter's Philosophical Gourmet Report, I presume?

People here come from the full variety of undergrad schools, from Hickville State U Branch Campus to Ivy League.

I come from Hickville State U Branch Campus. Frankly, I'm fucked.

I went to a small, public school that barely anyone has heard of. I did fairly well there (3.8 major/3.64 cumulative) and I have good GRE scores (97% Verbal 5.0 AW). I will have stellar recs and I'm confident that my writing sample is strong. The thing I'm most worried about is that the (lack of) prestige at my undergrad institution is going to hurt me. I'm applying to very good programs, and, like everyone else, I'm freaking out. I have this nagging fear that I'm going to get placed into the "not top-tier" pile. Someone help me out here. Anyone come from a little known school and get into a top English program? Ph.D. or M.A.

Thanks!

I come from a university likely even less prestigious than yours, so we're in the same bind. I'm pretty sure that the lack of a name-brand education is going to hinder you (and me) to a degree. It's by no means going to bar you from a PhD program, but you're going to have to work harder than the Ivy league kids.

I don't know about your school, but most of my English professors don't publish regularly. I can only think of two, actually. I really like some of them, especially the professor I'm working under for my independent study, but their letters of recommendation simply aren't going to carry the weight that an established scholar's would. (I should add, though, that the independent study professor is one of the two who publishes regularly, so she may be an exception.)

The aforementioned professor, who received her PhD from a reputable state school ~20 years ago, advised me to apply widely, even to the "big name" schools. But she did say that I'd have a hard time getting into the Ivies.

Altogether, your writing sample and statement of purpose are vital. They're the only things that really are going to make much of a difference when you're competing against Ivy league graduates. (At least, that's what I'm telling myself...)

Good luck!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Two Espressos

[rawera]

Phil, were you educated in the south? k-12 public schools? Just curious.

[Mr Grimwig]

I guess us old hicks don't know a gerd dern thang about nuthin cuz all we knows how to do is grow tobaccy and get happy bout that there indoor plumbing being installed next week.

This made me laugh, lolopixie!

I'm nearby, geographically, and I can feel your pain. I went to the University of Richmond, a small, strong liberal arts school, well-ranked, and highly-regarded in the immediate area. I had a terrific experience in our English department; since the school was pretty small (usually about 12 to 14 students per class), I was able to get to know most of the English faculty very well and benefit from lots of interaction. I took multiple classes with several professors who later became my mentors. These professors came from top-notch Ph.D. programs (Yale, Hopkins, UVa, Harvard), and I don't believe my coursework would have been any more rigorous at one of the larger, more well known Virginia schools, or even an Ivy League school. Indeed, I often felt like I was more pressured because I could not hide in a sea of several hundred faces in a lecture hall. I had to bring my A-game to every class session.

That said, I fear few people know about University of Richmond and will not recognize its quality immediately. I do hope adcomms understand that there are many great universities capable of giving students strong backgrounds and do not cling to too small a pool of "big name" places. Surely they will recognize that.

I hope....

Goodness me, my confidence and common sense seem to have abandoned me ever since I submitted my apps!

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mr Grimwig

[lolopixie]

While I can appreciate the quality of education that is provided at a top-tier school, I don't think that you have to attend one of these schools in order to achieve results. Guess what, they don't have 100% placement rates either. You have to make the most of where you are. Publish, publish, publish.

[user_name]

U of R is still above George Mason. Plus, my concentration wasn't even literature so I'm pretty lacking when it comes to foundation.

[Phil Sparrow]

Phil, were you educated in the south? k-12 public schools? Just curious.

First, this thread is about undergraduate universities, not K-12 schools. Second, I make a point not to divulge personal information to strangers online. Third, it's really none of your beeswax; and besides, my point stands whether or not I have personal experience with Southern public schooling. Let's just say I can speak with some degree of authority regarding the public school systems (primary, secondary, and tertiary) in one state in question.

I will say that I currently live and study in a different region from the one in which I was educated from childhood through my BA. The public primary and secondary schools here are terrible. But I would never condemn the education in this entire region--especially at the university level--simply because this one particular district is awful for primary and secondary schools. That would not make any sense.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming!

To answer the OP's original question: reputation of undergrad matters a little, for many of the reasons stated above. But it's honestly NOT that big of a deal. Your writing sample and SOP are--by far--the most important parts of your application, and while it can be easier to learn how to produce high-quality examples of these documents at some institutions than others, they far outweigh the name on your diploma. In my very-well-regarded program, we have students who represent a range of BA- (and some MA-) granting institutions. There is not much of a difference among us all once we start, though I have noticed that the students from SLACs tend to enter with a greater grasp of theory than those educated at larger public schools, though they tend to have a more narrow background in general literary history than the public kids, so these things balance out (of course, this observed correlation doesn't imply any kind of causation; we all could be one-offs here). Languages are another factor; in my observation, SLACs tend to emphasize foreign language study more (or make it harder to test out of language courses) than do big public Us, and languages can certainly be a deciding factor in applications. But just because certain schools, which more often (but not always) private and fancy, make it *easier* to acquire the skills necessary or favorable for graduate applicants, that doesn't mean that the name on your degree has all that much sway. If you can demonstrate that you have mastered the skills required (or show the potential to do so quickly), you're well on your way. Likewise, if you have an impressive name on your diploma, but haven't acquired those skills, you're unlikely to impress an adcom.

In sum, I do not think "prestige" matters that much for admissions, and once we are all here, we are all--and I mean ALL--riddled with the same crippling anxiety. Really really really, don't stress about this. The important things are your SOP, writing sample, and fit, fit, and more fit.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Phil Sparrow

[rawera]

First, this thread is about undergraduate universities, not K-12 schools. Second, I make a point not to divulge personal information to strangers online. Third, it's really none of your beeswax; and besides, my point stands whether or not I have personal experience with Southern public schooling. Let's just say I can speak with some degree of authority regarding the public school systems (primary, secondary, and tertiary) in one state in question.

The fact is that the vast majority of students at large public state universities are there because they were educated within that state. It's pretty ignorant (since we have varying degrees of authority, right) to assume that undergrad is significantly divorced from earlier education, even if at the graduate level they look at undergrad only.

You're right that we're talking about undergraduate and graduate institutes. You're also right in mentioning that education actually occurs in the South. And you're right to say that U of the South won't close any doors. But I bet it won't open many. Furthermore, when a region of states consistently performs lower than the national average, I'm talking graduation rates closer to 50% than 67%, we can probably agree that there is, in fact, a systemic problem within the region or state.

[Venti White Choc. Mocha]

B rate schools are B rate schools anywhere rawera—north or south. I attended UNCC, a lower tiered state school at best, and I haven’t been taught by a single PhD that didn’t get their degrees at Cornell, Harvard, or Berkley. If you’ve heard of stupid southerners in a program, well I know a stupid northerner or two (one with a Fulbright). Why do you consider yourself some sort of authority on the tempo and academic current of southern education? Anecdotal evidence, indeed. We also got that thar Chap’l Hill place with them churches and the jewelry stores. My mama Ann thinks that stuff fancie, I tell you.

[marlowe]

We also got that thar Chap’l Hill place with them churches and the jewelry stores. My mama Ann thinks that stuff fancie, I tell you.

Better known as Pulpit Hill.

or perhaps, Chapel Thrill.

Edited January 10, 2012 by marlowe

[xfgdfrmgpo332]

Better known as Pulpit Hill.

or perhaps, Chapel Thrill.

Nice... as I try to come up with a proposal (due tomorrow) for the Thomas Wolfe Society Conference