How to grade non-native English?

[wildviolet]

gracie123: There are professors and there are PROFESSORS.

Love the video, wildviolet. Although, we also have some letters with the same sound in specific cases.

I took four years of Spanish in high school, and I have to say that the grammar and pronunciation rules for Spanish are much clearer than those for English. My only regret is that I did not continue learning Spanish in college, with the the result that I can still understand some Spanish but am unable to speak it coherently. And I live in Southern California! Sigh.

The other thing I would like to add is that many international students learn English as a second language in their home countries. In America, on the other hand, learning a second language in school is an elective, something that is deemed extra, not essential, to one's education. Therefore, I admire people who know more than one language.

[PhDreams]

I think all students should be treated fairly. Fair does not mean equal. Therefore, to expect the same impeccable level of academic writing from native English speakers and non-native English speakers is unfair. I'm advocating for different, not lowered, expectations. I'm suggesting that teachers make themselves aware of their students' cultural and language backgrounds and of their own subjective biases, especially when grading.

Here's the example I always use when I discuss the idea of "fairness": Does a person with a handicap sticker on his or her car get to park closer to the building? Yes. Well, I don't get to park closer. Equal? No. But, fair? Yes, because I'm not handicapped, and I can walk the extra twenty feet.

So, as a teacher, I would not take off points for a few minor grammatical mistakes. If the paper was incomprehensible, however, I would take the extra effort to correct the mistakes and suggest tutoring or the writing center. I'm a native English speaker, and my writing really improved in college when I took a writing course from a professor who basically nitpicked everything and made us review our peers' writing (anonymously) and nitpick everything.

I'll end with some classic humor. English is not the easiest language to learn (and, might I add, even for native English speakers). Witness: one of my favorite episodes ever from "I Love Lucy." Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmwZqJB_8dQ&feature=related

I think all students should be treated fairly. Fair does not mean equal. Therefore, to expect the same impeccable level of academic writing from native English speakers and non-native English speakers is unfair. I'm advocating for different, not lowered, expectations. I'm suggesting that teachers make themselves aware of their students' cultural and language backgrounds and of their own subjective biases, especially when grading.

Here's the example I always use when I discuss the idea of "fairness": Does a person with a handicap sticker on his or her car get to park closer to the building? Yes. Well, I don't get to park closer. Equal? No. But, fair? Yes, because I'm not handicapped, and I can walk the extra twenty feet.

So, as a teacher, I would not take off points for a few minor grammatical mistakes. If the paper was incomprehensible, however, I would take the extra effort to correct the mistakes and suggest tutoring or the writing center. I'm a native English speaker, and my writing really improved in college when I took a writing course from a professor who basically nitpicked everything and made us review our peers' writing (anonymously) and nitpick everything.

I'll end with some classic humor. English is not the easiest language to learn (and, might I add, even for native English speakers). Witness: one of my favorite episodes ever from "I Love Lucy." Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmwZqJB_8dQ&feature=related

That video made my night!

[Armadilla]

Think about it this way: As your instructor, how am I supposed to know that you went to the writing center and got assistance? Should I just intuit it somehow from holding the pages in my hands? Granted, there was a course I TA'd where students who went to the Writing Center could get a form signed confirming that someone had helped them with their paper and then receive extra credit. BUT, that was one course. The rest of the time I simply have no idea whether or not my students go, even though I encourage ALL of my students (not just the non-native speakers) to go.

That's not really fair. Are you saying that we shouldn't penalize students at all for making grammatical mistakes? If so, why even both having grammar rules or teaching them in language courses? I realize that not all languages use articles and that some use articles all the time in places where English doesn't. But, learning to use articles correctly is part of learning the language. And, honestly, I've had to learn when to use and not use articles for two languages besides English already and there are rules that can be memorized.

I presume you are in social sciences and I am just fascinated how poorly informed you are about the second language acquisition. Knowing the rules about articles or English sentence structure is still not going to teach a non-native speaker how to use them 100% properly and correctly. There is so much about cognitive linguistics tat is still relatively unknown or poorly understood; otherwise you could just teach any non-native speaker how to break down a sentence into semantic trees and easily determine a missing branch and correct it. If that was the case, the linguists would not be arguing about semantic trees and their preciseness and subjectivity and we would all have a perfect Google translator which would decently transform sentences from one language to another without losing any semantic elements. However, we DO NOT have such a magic software nor will we see it coming in the nearest future (and if you speak a foreign language with a high level of fluency, you have probably used Google Translator and are well aware of its limitations; some translated sentences are just plain embarrassing!!). I would recommend you to do a little research on L2 acquisition because some things that people have mentioned in this thread are just absolutely inappropriate and indicate a high level on unfamiliarity with language learning.

[Armadilla]

I never said anything about taking grammar classes. Please don't put ideas into my mouth and act as if they are my own. What I said was that there are many, many rules of English grammar that can be memorized. I know this because, though I am a native speaker, I have had to memorize English grammar rules. And, if you can't memorize them, find someone to help you with your writing who can at least point out the problems to you so you can look them up. Seriously, writing requires effort, even for native speakers. You have to be willing to learn from the criticism of others, to make mistakes and fix them, to ask for help, and to read well-written pieces if you want your writing to improve. And that advice is the same whether or not English is your native language.

Again, YOU DO NOT MEMORIZE rules as a native speaker, it is a very sophisticated process called language acquisition. Chomsky was arguing about it 50 years ago (I don't remember exactly how many) and they are still arguing about it in linguistics and neurolinguistics to the present day. There are a lot of implications and a lot of processes that are not yet understood. We are talking about a high brain cognition, about bilateral interaction, about highly debated Brocca's and Wernicke's areas that are involved in the language acquisition of an individual. We do not fully understand the process of the first language acquisition by a child, not an adult learning L2. You learned your first language as a child and that was you L1, which is absolutely different from the situation of non-native English speakers. I just do not understand why it is so hard for an educated American grad student to make an effort and learn something about the L2 acquisition and cognitive linguistics. I feel deeply offended by your posts as a foreign student pursuing my degree in this country.

[BruceWayne24]

msafiri

As an L2 learner, I would like you to list the rules. All of them. Then I can happily learn them all.

What bullshit. Sorry, but you have no idea about language and linguistics, so please do not assume stuff that is clearly wrong.

It is a mystery to me how people, and for that matter, supposedly intelligent people, can boldly talk about language just because they happen to speak that language. I don't claim stuff in physics, even though I am obviously subject to certain physical rules such as gravity.

Armadilla: thanks for your more eloquent answer. I am too angry to give a more substantial reply at the moment....

[Armadilla]

BruceWayne24, I totally understand you!I've been reading this topic for a while, completely outraged by the level of incompetence of the graduate students (!!!) and finally made a decision to speak my mind!

[LLL]

BRAVO, Armadilla.

msafiri? who's msafiri?

I've learned to not take personally every offensive comment I see on the internet.

A person who just "hunts for the $$$" (see msafiri's program) does not deserve a

single response. I'm more worried for the initial poster (is that a correct term?) who

seemed genuinely concerned about grading non-native english speakers and the

whole "accent" thing.

[morningdew]

BruceWayne24, I totally understand you!I've been reading this topic for a while, completely outraged by the level of incompetence of the graduate students (!!!) and finally made a decision to speak my mind!

Thank you @Armadilla and @BruceWayne24,

For a moment, I felt like I was alone going against msafiri's comments...

[koolherc]

msafiri

As an L2 learner, I would like you to list the rules. All of them. Then I can happily learn them all.

What bullshit. Sorry, but you have no idea about language and linguistics, so please do not assume stuff that is clearly wrong.

It is a mystery to me how people, and for that matter, supposedly intelligent people, can boldly talk about language just because they happen to speak that language. I don't claim stuff in physics, even though I am obviously subject to certain physical rules such as gravity.

Armadilla: thanks for your more eloquent answer. I am too angry to give a more substantial reply at the moment....

As a fellow linguist, I am empathetic to your complaints, but I'm sure you know there's a difference between learning spoken language and learning written language. Mfsafiri's points (albeit clumsily made) about written language requiring effort are correct. He is conflating, however, the natural(spoken) portion and the synthetic (written) portion of "written language," thus assuming that the natural portion (and how it applies to written language) is also learnable through mere effort. There he is mistaken. He doesn't realize that writing requires a combination of two skills, only one of which he has had to apply effort to learn (spelling, orthography, some aspects of style); the other portion (syntax, semantics, other aspects of style) he learned automatically, as an L1 learner, and is thus unable to recognize the difficulty of. That is your point, I believe, and you are correct on that point. I hope msafiri understands what I'm saying.

[msafiri]

It's probably a bad idea to waste more of my time on this topic when people seem to have deliberately misinterpreted what I wrote. Nevertheless, I'll try to respond quickly (and briefly so as to eliminate the possibility for people to misread what I'm saying).

@gracie123: Yes, I do understand how hard non-native speakers have to work. I do my research and a great deal of my academic work in my second language, so I definitely understand. That said, I am always willing to accept help and corrections on my writing from others, and I seek out people that will help me with that because I know it's needed. So, why should I expect less than that from my students?

@Armadilla: Being in the social sciences does not mean that I have taken countless courses on linguistics. I'm sure you're aware that the term "social sciences" refers to an array of fields of study, of which linguistics is one. I have not found the time to study second language acquisition in detail at this point, and doubt that I will have the time since I am ABD at this point.

Also, Armadilla, you'll note that I never said someone had to memorize all the grammar rules in English. Instead I said (and this is from where you quoted me), "find someone to help you with your writing who can at least point out the problems to you so you can look them up. Seriously, writing requires effort, even for native speakers." If you disagree with that statement, please explain why as I'm sure it would enlightening to many people.

@BruceWayne24: Where did I say that someone had to learn all the rules? I said that people have to be willing to be told when they're wrong and to look up the things they don't know. That's just as true for me when writing in English as it is for a non-native speaker. When I don't know a grammatical rule (in any of the three languages I know), I look it up. Why is it that you and Armadilla seem to think that language learners shouldn't have to look up or know rules for English? Native English speakers look up these things all the time. That's part of the writing process and part of learning to write well.

@LoLu: When you get to the point where you're looking for funding to support your research and provide funding so that you can focus on your dissertation without having to teach every semester, you'll understand what it means to be on the hunt for $$$. Until then, perhaps you should refrain from commenting. If you don't think that part of being successful in graduate school is hunting for and obtaining funding, you might want to find new mentors to get advice from.

@Koolherc: Thanks for trying to understand what I wrote. I probably conflated spoken and written language because this post is explicitly about grading written work. And I don't need anyone to be patronizing about my confusing what you have to learn and what is learned automatically since I have put forth a great deal of effort to learn two languages since I went to college. So yes, I know that there are a great number of things that native speakers have no trouble with that I have had to force myself to learn and that I still struggle with in some cases. The subjunctive has presented particular difficulties for me because of its absence as a separate conjugated form in English and because it is used in different situations in each of the other two languages I have studied for the past 10 years.

I do find it interesting that everyone assumed that I wrote this as a monolingual male, though I am neither of those things. That said, it's interesting that every time I get in a disagreement with anyone on this board, I am referred to with masculine pronouns even though I have made it pretty clear elsewhere that I am female (insofar as gender constructs even matter, which goes well beyond the original scope of this post).

----------------

I'm happy to return this to the original conversation, which I actually thought was quite productive. In particular, I would like to hear from other TAs who have dealt with this issue in their classroom, rather than just speculation and hyperbole from those that have not yet been in the situation or have been in it as students and not as instructors. As with many things, I think you'll find that things are different when you are the person doing the grading, rather than just criticizing the grading choices made by someone else.

On that note, I should point out that different instructors make different choices. I TA'd for an instructor that didn't believe that any comments about students' grammar or style should be made on their papers and that a one sentence comment on the grading rubric about both of those would suffice. Personally, I don't find that to be sufficient when I'm grading as I like to point out where students are making their errors or note that they make a particular error repeatedly, rather than trying to summarize it all by writing something like "The grammar used is appropriate, though the essay could be written more clearly", which does not really help a student understand how to improve. And I guess that's sort of my focus: on helping students understand where and how they can improve. If that's wrong, so be it. Just don't take my class.

Edited March 4, 2012 by msafiri

[koolherc]

yeah, wow, sorry about the gender prejudice. pretty gross of me (and others).

Edited March 4, 2012 by koolherc

[Sigaba]

Failing that, find someone to proofread papers.

Please be very careful when it comes to encouraging proof reading by third parties. By some academic standards, this activity can lead to unintentional acts of plagiarism. It is one thing to offer a general comment about word choices or verb tenses ("You might want to double check your verb tenses...") while a specific recommendation ("Change 'she thinks' to 'she thought'.") might be crossing the line.

[eco_env]

Please be very careful when it comes to encouraging proof reading by third parties. By some academic standards, this activity can lead to unintentional acts of plagiarism. It is one thing to offer a general comment about word choices or verb tenses ("You might want to double check your verb tenses...") while a specific recommendation ("Change 'she thinks' to 'she thought'.") might be crossing the line.

It might be a problem if you are getting graded on grammar. Otherwise, you learn proper grammar (or get extra eyes to catch typos you didn't notice), and the grader understands what you were trying to communicate better. everyone wins.

[Sigaba]

It might be a problem if you are getting graded on grammar. Otherwise, you learn proper grammar (or get extra eyes to catch typos you didn't notice), and the grader understands what you were trying to communicate better. everyone wins.

In my experience, everything one submits for a graded assignment is subject to evaluation.

Also, is the objective to win or is it to learn?

[new_to_kin]

OK. I am a native English speaker, however I am not from Nth America. Writing conventions are different where I am from (and did my undergrad). My husband laughs at me because he thinks I am old fashioned. I use phrases that aren't in common use here. It's a topic of comedy for us. For example, we were reading a paper and the author said something like: "she placed the cup on a saucer, the which was covered in flowers".

This kind of stuff didn't affect my Masters grades. And I don't think it should. It's stylistic. I suppose I "write with an accent".

I do think that it is reasonable to expect mostly correct grammar if this is a writing course. Otherwise, if the student is able to be clearly understood, even if the style is different, I would not grade it down.

[TeaGirl]

I'm a non native speaker of English. However, I've also been learning it ever since kindergarten and 80% of everything I read/watch/write is in English.

Style is subjective but I've found that grammar, for most part, is not. It's important to judge both native and non native speakers equally in this. I've seen way too many graduate students and professors in my field make too many mistakes with it. I think mistakes ought to be pointed out to students so they can learn to correct them. If that doesn't happen, then students simply keep on doing the same wrong thing, keep getting the same lower grade, and are mystified as to why (see posters above).

I don't know how this is done when you teach writing since I only teach scientific subjects. If you take an advanced engineering course, you are expected to have already mastered certain basic math skills and will be graded accordingly, no excuses. It's likely different in a more subjective field like writing, but perhaps in the grading rubric you can have a clearly defined percentage of the grade on each portion of a written assignment (grammar and spelling, style, content, etc.) This way students can figure out their weakpoints, and it will also serve as a useful reminder to you if a student chooses to come discuss their work with you to figure out what to improve.

[mirandaw]

I was an undergraduate TA in which I did primarily grading for a very popular humanities elective course. Marks were less dependent upon grammar and spelling and more upon the development of ideas and understanding content. I had many non native English speakers and international students who varied in their grasp of the English language, but since it was not an English course, I established a baseline for their papers based on in class reflective writing assignments, response papers, and research papers and would keep these in mind when grading or recommending additional help. There were a few students whose writing I really could not understand, so I talked with them individually about their ideas to help work through language barriers and to ensure they understood the content of the class.

A funny side note: the non native english speakers who, even after weeks of tutoring in the writing center with little grammatical improvement, at least understood that "feminist" and "sexist" are NOT synonymous. 4th year graduating seniors without the language barrier did not. Take it all with a grain of salt and grade based on content unless grammer is of utmost importance.

Edited April 20, 2012 by mirandaw

[Sigaba]

I think there's too much posturing in this thread by members of this BB who have never stood in front of a classroom of undergraduates. I think that if some of you are going to need much thicker skins.

I also think that some of you need to figure out ways to communicate your points of view more respectfully and without the snark. Otherwise, your professors--if not also your classmates--are going to use you as chew toys.

Back on topic. Regardless of one's familiarity with the research on the acquisition of language skills or one's empathy or sympathy for students who are not native English speakers, the question remains: What are you going to do when you've got a limited amount of time to evaluate fifty or more assignments and some of the replies are incomprehensible?

The temptation to punt will be tremendous. The opportunities for rationalization will be plentiful. (She's a student athlete and it is the middle of her season...English is his second language and he's trying very hard...She's a single parent and she's going through a tough time right now...this class isn't part of his major.)

When those of you who are fortunate enough to be entrusted with the teaching of undergraduates face these situations, ask yourselves what kind of educator do you want to be. As you deliberate, consider the following point.

A reason why a BB like thegradcafe exists is because too many professors and experienced graduate students have punted. That is, rather than taking an active interest in your development as students, many of your professors and teaching assistants have decided not to make you a priority. Consequently, during each application season, this BB has thousands of members who do not have an idea how to pick programs, to ask for LORs, to write SOPs, or how to initiate conversations with POIs.

Make no mistake. Professors and graduate students have plenty of reasons for not mentoring undergraduates--even those who want to follow in their footsteps. They have rationalizations of their own. (I've got too much work to do on my dissertation. I need to study for quals. I've got to prepare for a committee meeting. I don't want to get negative evaluations from undergraduates; I'm up for tenure review next year. It isn't my job. They are not worth the effort.)

Think about how as graduate students want to fit into this dynamic. Consider the example you want to set for your students, your fellow graduate students, and the professors for whom your working. Do you want to be known as someone who is committed to educating undergraduates? Or do you want to be known as someone who is willing to kick the can down the hallway in the hope that someone else will pick it up?

If you pick the latter option, I suggest that you keep in mind that professors who do care about teaching may ask around about your sensibilities towards teaching. If they don't like what they hear, you may find your relationship with them subtly changing. Or they may use their influence to send a clearer message by not hiring you for more work. (And believe me, working for professors who care about teaching is much more rewarding than working for a professor who doesn't give a shit about undergraduates. But I'm not bitter.)

My $0.02.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Sigaba

[acrosschemworld]

I am an undergraduate non-native speaker, but I don't think that having different expectations from non-native speakers would do them a favor. Like someone pointed out, being a non-native speaker is a challenge, but there are other challenges that other people face. If it took me a week to write an average to bad paper and a native speaker wrote a great one the night before, I still think it is fair for him to get a higher grade than me. On the other hand, I expect to study for a few hours for a chemistry exam and probably still get a higher grade than a student who is not great at science and studied hard for an entire week for that test. It is normal for non-native speakers to have lower grades in writing classes at the beginning, but it is their responsability to improve if they want to continue on a writing path. An instructor should help them improve by giving feedback or whatever teaching techniques s/he likes, but the grading rubric should be the same.

In my opinion, in an ideal world, any kind of grade should be a consistent and objective assessment of how well you did in that class, regardless of your backgrund and how much effort you put into it. Then whoever reads your transcript in order to hire you, accept you for grad school or whatever should do all the interpretation for the purposes adequate to each context. If the transcript of a non-native speaker shows bad grades in the first writing classes but higher grades later on, it means that the student was just adapting and later learned how to deal with academic English. If the grades do not show improvement and the non-native speaker wants to work in an English-writing-intensive program, the employer or grad school adcomm should have the right to know the student has not improved. If the student wants to go back to his/her home country or not work in an area where English writing matters, s/he should not be affected by a bad grade in a writing class.

[juilletmercredi]

Personally, I think that non-native speakers should be graded the same as native English speakers. The reason I think this is because these students will presumably be released into the world and write things for dissemination in the English language. I don't want them to think that their English writing is just fine when it clearly isn't.

When I grade papers (I'm in psychology), I note spelling, grammatical, and syntactical errors but I don't start deducting points until the errors are so bad that it makes it difficult to read the paper. I spend a lot of time grading papers because I write notes in the margins about errors and what can be done to improve them. No, my field's not English, but I believe strongly in "writing across the curriculum" and that professors across fields (not just English professors) should contribute to the develop of good writing, especially if they are going to require a paper as part of the course.

I have met individually with students both in and out of my office hours to give them feedback on their papers. I'm willing to do that with every student, native speaker or not. Writing is important.

I have to agree with Sigaba. If I make excuses for my students' poor writing, how are they ever going to learn that their writing is poor? How will they learn how to improve?