The Guardian: Why You Shouldn't Do Postgrad

[NowMoreSerious]

[Phil Sparrow]

You are just using the same [unconvincing] argument as the author of the article: "I love what I do but I am not having a good time." Really? Because you sound very happy to me, especially with all that talk about having drunk the Kool Aid; I have yet to meet a Lotus Eater who was unhappy after eating the loti. In fact, that's sort of the whole point.

And, for the record, I never said anything about "fun."

I'm not using any argument. I don't care if you or anyone else goes to grad school; I just think a lot of people are starry-eyed about what it entails. They know about grad applications and the job market, but not often the part in between. And I have not paid close enough attention to anyone's particular posts to single anyone out, so I'm not sure why you thought I was talking to you directly. Chillax.

ETA: I think the Guardian article is silly.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Phil Sparrow

[deebee]

We drank the Kool-Aid.

worst idiom.

[Sparky]

You are just using the same [unconvincing] argument as the author of the article: "I love what I do but I am not having a good time." Really? Because you sound very happy to me, especially with all that talk about having drunk the Kool Aid; I have yet to meet a Lotus Eater who was unhappy after eating the loti. In fact, that's sort of the whole point.

There is a difference between "happy" or "having fun" on one hand, and spiritual contentment/fulfillment on the other.

I used to think those were more or less synonymous, then I discovered grad school. I don't know, maybe John Donne said it best.

[magog]

Yawn. Articles like this can kiss my ass.

[JElliott]

It seems like many of you take offense to the idea of fun? (Though I parenthesized that it always comes hand-in-hand with stress. I guess "stress" isn't a strong enough term.) I don't mean to imply that I don't constantly get rejected from things I apply to that take days of work (I do). Nor do I mean to imply that I haven't nearly ruined my constitution with caffeine, alcohol, and lack of sleep combined (I have). And I can definitely relate to working seven days a week and maybe spending 40 minutes watching TV with my partner before exhaustedly going to bed (pretty much the status quo for my relationship whilst classes are in session). My thesis, and its subsequent defence, caused a lot of the most panicked hours of my life.

But to me, conferences are fun. Discussing things I care about in seminar classes is fun, when I've managed to do/understand all of the reading. (I will fully admit there are times when I can't handle everything.) Whining in the hallways between grad offices about our collective lot has always been fun to me. I find it fun to work on my essays when I'm sketching out ideas, or when I'm finally through with the grind of getting appropriate references to bring together the argument I'm trying to make. Even working on my thesis was fun to me in the editing stages (I get that enjoying editing is maybe just a me thing).

I don't think one has to find the notion of amusement offensive in order to go to graduate school. I get it; our work is really hard, underpaid, and serious business to all of us. And many of us are seeking something intellectually/emotionally/spiritually/financially fulfilling from it, whether we like to admit it or not. But is there something inherently wrong with the notion of trying to enjoy the moments that are (at least to some extent) lovely and amusing? Or are we contractually obligated to assume that what we're doing is definitively miserable because it's difficult, time-consuming, and we're not rich yet? It is maybe just my humble opinion, but that seems to me a lot more like "drinking the Kool-Aid" than anything else.

[magog]

I'm 'miserable' when I'm sitting in my cubicle. I'm alive when I'm presenting a paper. Having walked in both worlds, the choice is no choice at all. I will no longer surround myself with intellectually incurious capitalists.

[ekim12]

I fully expect to whoop it up as a grad student. harhar

Edited March 2, 2012 by ekim12

[pippin23]

For me, grad school = better than unemployment/McDonald's/any other job where my ability to speak French will actually cause my co-workers to jump me in the alley after work.

I think that may be the single most absurdly privileged sentence I've ever read.

[Sanchéz]

I think what it all boils down to is whether or not one believes in the inherent value of knowledge. I do. I fiercely do, in fact. That's not to say that some of the arguments against going to graduate school don't have any traction...but after having taken a year off (after receiving an MA), experiencing the other side of things, and earning a good bit of money, I'm counting down the days until I get to return to the classroom as a teacher and a student.

Sure, there are those weeks when I got 10 total hours of sleep, there are those papers that were painful to grind out, and there undoubtedly were those moments (sometimes days or weeks) when I weighed all the opportunity costs of not entering the non-academic world...perhaps more money, consistency, security, etc. Yet (and forgive me for sounding like an 80s TV movie here), I don't know if I've ever been as happy as I was when I returned to the school at which I earned my masters last week. Three of my former students formed a cinema club, an outlet for undergrads who just want to watch good films and talk about them...and it's been very successful so far at a school where one can often be drowned by its 30,000+ population. Knowing that I was a central part in opening up this new world, this tremendously large, influential, and beautiful cultural institution to them (I taught a class themed around the classical Hollywood cinema) to the point where they felt compelled to share this world with others....well, it was rewarding beyond words. And it was my work as a student, doing research that I loved doing and taking classes that I loved taking, that informed my teaching.

I apologize for the overly-sentimental post (what do you expect from someone whose profile pic is Capra, right?)...but only in academia can inquiry and the realizations of that inquiry be so intimately attached. I'm so grateful I get to continue this next fall.

P.S. - And in regards to tenure-track jobs...though I don't have any sources to back this up, I'm anticipating that the baby boomer professors (many of whom were hired during the humanities boom of the 70s) will start to retire in the next 5-10 years...opening up several positions. Who knows, though? If I end up working at a small liberal arts schools, I'll still have a better job than most. I have a great friend/mentor who's a professor in engineering, and he told me that if you enjoy your job 25% of the time, you have a damn good job. I'll just say...I easily enjoyed my two years in the masters program more than 25% of the time. If you truly feel like this is what you want to do...do it. I hope that your life will be the better for it. I know mine has been.

[ferhin]

I've read articles that warn that if you go to graduate school that you have to be insane. And for a brief, very brief, moment panicked (I believe it was because my husband and I had just cleared our savings on graduate school applications), but after that moment I stopped and remembered: I flipping know this already (thank you trusting, ranting professors, Google, and Piled Higher and Deeper)! I agree with most posters, those of us who are serious about pursing more advanced degrees already know the risks. But, we continue on. Perhaps we are insane and that's the most basic criteria for anyone who wants to tread this path for 5 (or more, probably more) years. Bottom line: if you have already seriously begun the process there is no point in revisiting the rationale. You know it somewhere intrinsically (it’s hard to explain because it’s complicated). And, if you’ve made it past the Guardian articles and cynical professors and still went with it, keep going and don’t let waiver your resolve now.

*And besides, from what I gather from the media and everyone else, if you aren't in science, math, computers, "criminal justice," etc, your education is pointless.

This does not reflect the views of the author of this post, obviously

[TripWillis]

One of the things that intensifies the issues I will have on the job market is that my primary focus is Af-Am and I'm white. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I also know white Af-Am professors who have walked into job interviews and been told straight away, "I'm very sorry, but this position is our only chance to hire a PoC in our department." It is, of course, a worse injustice that this kind of situation has to exist in the first place -- if there weren't such massive diversity issues in academia (btw, that's one of the things I love about Rutgers), there'd be no problem. It's possible that as my PhD progresses, I'll make Af-Am my secondary focus and broaden my interest to general 20th C American or put more emphasis on queer studies. After all, I am LGBTQ, so there ya go -- that's their chance to hire a queer in the humanities; obviously, there are not enough.

[magog]

Yeah, you're right: being unemployed is so privileged, as is only applying to MA programs at state schools. And being bullied is the cherry on top

I guess the point was that to even be in a position where one can refuse to be in a shitty situation is itself privileged. Or maybe that to have the mindset that a fast-food job or a job with anti-intellectuals is in fact shitty is a privileged attitude.

I agree, and I don't care. We ARE privileged - both to be in a situation where graduate school is a social/economic possibility, and to have minds/attitudes conducive to intellectual pursuits. So what?

[koolherc]

I think what it all boils down to is whether or not one believes in the inherent value of knowledge. I do. I fiercely do, in fact.

This is far from requisite. I definitely do not value knowledge this way.

I think it's simply a matter of what one is likely to enjoy doing or not. Of course, one's personal sense of ethics and/or purpose (and the cosmologies around it) will influence one's abilities to be happy/suffer as well.

[NowMoreSerious]

I guess the point was that to even be in a position where one can refuse to be in a shitty situation is itself privileged. Or maybe that to have the mindset that a fast-food job or a job with anti-intellectuals is in fact shitty is a privileged attitude.

I agree, and I don't care. We ARE privileged - both to be in a situation where graduate school is a social/economic possibility, and to have minds/attitudes conducive to intellectual pursuits. So what?

I agree what starlajane said is potentially problematic because of its class/cultural elitist undertones, but....(about the bolded)

Whaaa?

[NowMoreSerious]

What "undertones"? I think that you need to redefine "elitist" and "privileged." Because it is very clear that you have never lived in an environment where people are violently competing for resources, where you have to claw your way out, where the people in your immediate environment are constantly trying to make sure that you don't get out.

Only the truly elite can defend and excuse the underprivileged, precisely b/c they are not having to compete with them And only the truly privileged would sneer at a graduate offer. There are some of us who are grateful for having even the slightest chance of a better life, and for whom graduate work--with all of its long hours and meager pay--is a better life.

Obviously, an MA is a better life than working at McDonalds for most people. But who is to say that an MA might not, in this economic climate, lead directly to a job at McDonalds. I think that was my point. And by that I mean it has nothing to do with my earlier claim and is a complete non-sequitur.

Seriously though, I just thought you were characterizing fast-food workers as these raving anti-intellectuals who would just as soon beat a person for knowing French than even consider that education might have value.

I should have considered that you might be Canadian and living in a place where you are beaten for knowing French as some sort of class/cultural oppression, though. If I misunderstood that, I deeply apologize.

[ekim12]

Obviously, an MA is a better life than working at McDonalds for most people. But who is to say that an MA might not, in this economic climate, lead directly to a job at McDonalds.

Or, more likely, a Ph.D. to a nonacademic job.

But yes, my thoughts and anxieties exactly. It's been established again and again that most people here prefer studying in grad school to working in the service industry. But given the (hypothetical) worst-case McDonalds scenario, there's got to be more incentive to the pursuit of a Ph.D than that. We're also foregoing other professional degrees that could potentially be more lucrative and/or less risky... Not that we enter academia because we expect to get rich or die trying. But at least I hope to be comfortable.

I want to stay in academia because it's the only place where people get my jokes.

Ditto.

Hm, maybe a few years outside the ivory tower, I'll figure out how comfortable I am with the whole reentry thing. As for now, I plan to do lots of life stuff after my MA degree.

Edited March 3, 2012 by ekim12

[lyonessrampant]

Seriously, check out the columbia link I posted earlier. There are other sites as well, but you can TOTALLY remarket yourself for a nonacademic career with an English Ph.D, especially if you add a more "practical" (their words not mine) graduate minor and/or internships, you have tons of marketable skills if you don't want to stay in academia.

[LivePoetry123]

hmm.... can we revisit the topic of "fun" again for a little bit? (don't hate me...). I did an MA so I like to think that I've experienced a bit of what grad school life is like. During my MA, I definitely had fun, and I mean that both in the sense that my readings and classes were fun for me because I was interested in them, AND in the sense that I met awesome people and I often went out and partied with these awesome people. Now, I did have the luxury of being able to take 2 years to do my MA so that gave me a bit more free time, but some of my friends did it in a year and still had time for... fun. Some of the PhD students I got to know at my school were the most "fun" people I've ever met. I guess I have been thinking about this issue a lot of late as I consider whether I really want to do a PhD, and I've definitely had my moments of thinking "oh my god, do I REALLY want to lock myself in a library for the next 5+ years?" But I think its important to re-examine that whole notion of grad school being a time when one has to exclusively lock oneself in the library. Yes, during my MA I definitely worked more than my friends who had 9-5 jobs. Yes, I pretty much worked all day during the week. But I definitely took days off, and those days off were infinitely more fun and satisfying than my current "days off" in my "real world job." I think this was because I was hanging out with people who shared my interests and passions, AND because what we were doing was so damn hard. Being in a difficult situation together definitely breeds a whole different kind of atmosphere. There are always things to talk about. Things are more lively and intense. And what are we really MISSING by working those extra 4-8 hours a day? Most people I know who work 9-5 jobs go home after work and watch mindless TV shows or mindlessly surf the internet. I'm not degrading those things at all, but c'mon guys, its not like we're missing a bunch of rockin' weekday parties by being in grad school. If we do socialize LESS, I'd like to think that our social interactions are more high-quality. For me, quality is infinitely more important than quantity when it comes to relationships. There were definitely people in my cohort who locked themselves in the library and didn't do much else, and they didn't actually do better in their classes than those of us who went out and got drunk every weekend. I don't think the mind can actually be "on" 24/7, despite our best intentions. The job market being what it is, I would definitely not do a PhD unless I thought that the process would be inherently "worth it" and yes, enjoyable. Based on my MA experience, I'm pretty confident it will be.

[Sparky]

Yeah, I apologize for setting up a false dichotomy between fun-not-in-grad-school and contentment-in-grad-school. To nuance it a bit more, I would clarify that there is fun to be had in both; the difference (for many of us here, I think) is that there is a contentment in academic pursuits that is much, much harder to achieve on another path.

Of course, whether that contentment is primarily because Dude, this is the awesomest book ever! or mainly because you think pursuing further education makes you one of the "elite" (...what world do you live in and can I move there?), is a different question. (Hopefully it goes without saying that 99% of us here are motivated mainly by the first?)