Compensating for academic inbreeding

[carlyhylton]

Alot of the grad students in the lab I have a RAship in have attended my university since their undergrad (5 out of 6 as well as a visiting fellowship student who has attended her home institution since her undergrad).

Is there any way to compensate for 'academic inbreeding' during undergrad/grad studies (e.g. exchanges, visiting fellowships, post-docs etc), or is this simply frowned upon?

Is this more of a concern when 'academic inbreeding' occurs from undergrad to grad studies, or when grad students get a tenure track position at the same uni they did their grad studies at?

Edited March 24, 2012 by carlyhylton

[snowballschanceonhell]

Five out of six grad students in that lab couldn't leave the nest? Wow.

Here's how you "compensate": go to a grad program that doesn't do this. If I were you, I'd also try to get your research experience in another lab. In that lab, you're wasting your time being with a bunch of schmoozers. Trust me, you're not learning anything new...except schmoozing skills that might get you in the same inbred program.

Obviously this is a concern in all of the above scenarois: whether it's a grad student who couldn't leave the nest or an inbred prof who gets the position through schmoozing. It's not doing them or the institution any favors: there will always be a black mark against these grad students when they try to apply for post-doc or faculty positions elsewhere.

Sometimes profs and lab PI's get lazy and they don't want to train new people. So they just take their own undergrad RA's. This is selfish and doesn't help anyone in the long run. The students aren't learning anything new and the labs aren't getting any fresh ideas or new perspectives/methods.

[Arcadian]

Five out of six grad students in that lab couldn't leave the nest? Wow.

Here's how you "compensate": go to a grad program that doesn't do this. If I were you, I'd also try to get your research experience in another lab. In that lab, you're wasting your time being with a bunch of schmoozers. Trust me, you're not learning anything new...except schmoozing skills that might get you in the same inbred program.

Obviously this is a concern in all of the above scenarois: whether it's a grad student who couldn't leave the nest or an inbred prof who gets the position through schmoozing. It's not doing them or the institution any favors: there will always be a black mark against these grad students when they try to apply for post-doc or faculty positions elsewhere.

Sometimes profs and lab PI's get lazy and they don't want to train new people. So they just take their own undergrad RA's. This is selfish and doesn't help anyone in the long run. The students aren't learning anything new and the labs aren't getting any fresh ideas or new perspectives/methods.

LMAO. "A bunch of schmoozers"? I must say, I hadn't heard the term until you used it.

Anyway, to the question... I wouldn't make such a snap judgment. I would consider the full context of your credentials. If you have done solid work, then perhaps this so-called "academic inbreeding" can be overlooked.

[snowballschanceonhell]

LMAO. "A bunch of schmoozers"? I must say, I hadn't heard the term until you used it.

Anyway, to the question... I wouldn't make such a snap judgment. I would consider the full context of your credentials. If you have done solid work, then perhaps this so-called "academic inbreeding" can be overlooked.

I guess I could have said Bullshitters instead of "schmoozers"

"If you have done solid work, then perhaps this so-called "academic inbreeding" can be overlooked."

Ummm, yeah right. The only students I've ever seen stuck in the nest are:

1.) students who can't get good opportunities elsewhere

2.) students who are too lazy to get good opportunities elswhere

3.) students who are too chicken-shit to get good opportunities elsewhere

4.) students who compensate for their intellectual deficits with their bullshitting skills (which, of course, only works when you're getting a "promotion" within the same dept.)

5.) students who have a little hanky-panky going on with their profs

6.) students who finagle their way through some shady backdoor

7.) usually all of the above.

So how does that piece of academic reality hit ya?

Maybe next time I'll name my school and department

* hint about my department: you don't need more than gradeschool math and science to get in.

Edited April 6, 2012 by snowballschanceonhell

[lewin]

^^ There can be rare exceptions to this. If your program is the top in its subfield nobody would blame you for sticking around; they know there are no better opportunities elsewhere.

[snowballschanceonhell]

^^ There can be rare exceptions to this. If your program is the top in its subfield nobody would blame you for sticking around; they know there are no better opportunities elsewhere.

Nonsense. If a UG thinks his/her program is THE top in its field and rules over all other programs, all the more reason to send the student elsewhere.

No "better opportunities" elsewhere? Please. Sounds just like the type of arrogant insular program that wants to keep its own for all the wrong reasons.

Edited April 7, 2012 by snowballschanceonhell

[lewin]

I was being vague to avoid appearing pompous, but my program is the best in its subfield in my country--not the undergrad's opinion, but well-known in the field. If the student doesn't want to emigrate (which I guess could be construed as a combination of #'s 2 and 3 above but not really) then staying here makes sense. Personally I don't give a shit if the undergrads leave to go elsewhere but there are a few grad students who stayed on with good reason.

[TakeruK]

Whoa...

Okay while it's a very important thing to get a diverse experience and education, not everyone who stays at the same institution is guilty of that extensive list posted above there!! I agree that if you are trying to learn as much as possible and trying to become a leader in your field, you should avoid "academic inbreeding". I think Universities prefer to hire people with a wide breadth of experience and can bring in new/fresh ideas, so it would be hard to get a tenure track position at the same University where one does both their undergrad and PhD.

That said, there are lots of legitimate reasons to stay at the same institution/lab. If I was told right now that if I went back to my UG institution for my PhD and I would be guaranteed some non tenure-track, research assistant type permanent position at the same school after graduation, I'd take the offer right away. I know one guy who has been in the same lab for ~19 years now (UG, PhD, Postdocs, now research staff) and he's happy since he can raise a family in a city he loves.

Just because someone chooses to prioritize things other than career development when making decisions doesn't mean that they are automatically lazy, unintelligent, cowardly, sleeping with the faculty, etc.

[carlyhylton]

Holy shitballs. Shouldn't have started this thread.

I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that staying in the lab I am in is NOT AT ALL MY INTENTION, especially because my research interests don't match up with my lab's research interests

I'd like to furthermore defend accusations of my own academic inbreeding in saying that I am just an undergrad! Again, not intending to stay.

However, I would like to chime in that grad students at the lab would probably echo what Lewin00 and TakeruK have commented. Not that I am defending them, but I'll give them some 'voice'. Moreover, they are certainly not guilty of any of the items on snowballschanceonhell's list.

Finally, I'll admit that I am considering applying to my current institution for grad school (although not at the lab that I'm currently in and within a different area) because of location and post-doc research/clinical opportunities at excellent hospitals and mental health centres, which is why I started the forum. But given the responses I'll assume this isn't recommended!

Thanks!

[TakeruK]

I notice that your location is Toronto, and I think things are a little different for us Canadians, with regards to "inbreeding". For example, in many fields, there are only 2 or 3 good programs in our country, so if a student wants to stay in Canada, it's not really frowned upon. Also, in most fields, Canadians do a Masters first, then a PhD, and it's usually perfectly acceptable to do undergrad and masters at one place then go elsewhere for a PhD.

I sought out a lot of advice from many profs while in the last year of my undergrad. They said that while traditionally almost all Canadian academics end up doing something outside of Canada, it's not completely necessary. I think how things are done in our profs' "generation" would be different than what we will see when we're "grown up". If you're staying in Canada, the advice I got was to do either a PhD *or* a post doc at a different school.

Also, it depends on the school -- for the bigger schools, such as UBC, U of T and McGill, staying at the same place isn't so bad. Again, a lot of the "don't stay in the same school twice" mentality is a US thing, in my opinion. I also notice that it is more prestigious for US students to go to a undergrad school outside of their home state. So, definitely go ahead and apply to your current school and then compare all your options. You mention your current school has good post doc opportunities -- I feel the same way about my undergrad school too, and I hope to go back to my undergrad lab for a post doc one day!

Bottom line: In Canada, there are less choices so people tend to repeat schools more. Don't worry too much about the stigma of staying at the same school, just apply to all programs that interest you and then find the best fit.

[carlyhylton]

TakeruK, thank you so much for your last response, I hadn't thought that there would be a difference between Canadians and Americans but I guess there certainly is! There are certainly only a few schools and a handful of people doing the kind of research that I want to do in Canada, so it is certainly limiting. And there are probably tons of reasons one would want to stay in Canada. Aside from personal reasons, I've heard that it is economically way harder to do grad school in the states, for example (e.g. funding is harder to secure, I assume you'd have to pay international student tuition, etc)....

I'm so glad that you've added the Canadian perspective!

I will definitely apply to my current institution and compare my options if accepted!

Thanks again

[MakeYourself]

Five out of six grad students in that lab couldn't leave the nest? Wow.

Here's how you "compensate": go to a grad program that doesn't do this. If I were you, I'd also try to get your research experience in another lab. In that lab, you're wasting your time being with a bunch of schmoozers. Trust me, you're not learning anything new...except schmoozing skills that might get you in the same inbred program.

Obviously this is a concern in all of the above scenarois: whether it's a grad student who couldn't leave the nest or an inbred prof who gets the position through schmoozing. It's not doing them or the institution any favors: there will always be a black mark against these grad students when they try to apply for post-doc or faculty positions elsewhere.

Sometimes profs and lab PI's get lazy and they don't want to train new people. So they just take their own undergrad RA's. This is selfish and doesn't help anyone in the long run. The students aren't learning anything new and the labs aren't getting any fresh ideas or new perspectives/methods.

LMAO. Thanks for the laugh.

The unfortunate thing about academia is that it is filled with pretentious people who love to take any opportunity to argue that they are superior to you in any number of irrelevant ways. It is best to learn from here on out to ignore these people because you will be running into them A LOT in your academic career.

As for your question, unfortunately, there is a stigma in the academic world for this so-called 'academic inbreeding'. I personally think it's ridiculous and mainly an arrogant way for people to put themselves above others. But, in reality, if you do go to the same school for your undergrad and grad you probably will have to deal with this stigma. But I don't think it's as big of a deal as some people make it seem.

And, of course, there are ways to combat the stigma. You could do an exchange, internship, or semester abroad. You could do your pHD at a different school, and you can do a post-doc. But as another poster mentioned, I think that in Canada it is much more normal to go to the same school.

Personally, I had a choice between 2 Canadian schools. One that was a top-tier school and one that wasn't top tier and was my undergrad school. I was surely tempted to pick the top-tier school because it was DIFFERENT than my undergrad, and because it was more 'prestigious'. But after a lot of researching and meeting with the faculty at the top-tier school, I realized that my undergrad school really was the better fit for me. And the only reason I was straying away from it was because of this 'stigma' that I was afraid of. I decided to take a risk and continue my graduate career at my undergrad school and I'm so glad that I did. I followed my heart and what I really wanted to study. And I think ultimately, that is way more important than what others think about your career.

Plus, a lot of these people who think you should go to a different school are folks that are INCREDIBLY out of touch with reality. They have filled up their lives so fully with academia that they don't have meaningful relationships in the "outside world", hell, they don't even know how to talk to people outside of a University setting. (this is a really weird observation that I've made over the years). I don't think these people really value relationships and having a family as much as their career (unless it somehow worked out miraculously for them and their partner just followed them along everywhere they went, but that's pretty rare).

And as for the whole 'you will be closed-minded' argument. That's such bullshit, and such a naive claim to make (especially by people who should know not to make such far-out claims based on no supporting evidence). It is ABSOLUTELY possible to go to a different school and end up more closed-minded than to stay at the same school, and vice versa. It all depends on the program, who you're working with, and a whole crap load of other factors.

So I guess in the end my advice is that I'd rather put up with a few academic snobs acting superior to me than to just plan my career around what everyone else thinks I should do rather than what I feel I should do.

Peace.

Edited April 8, 2012 by spinrah

[TakeruK]

Aside from personal reasons, I've heard that it is economically way harder to do grad school in the states, for example (e.g. funding is harder to secure, I assume you'd have to pay international student tuition, etc)....

I chose to stay in Canada for MSc for mostly personal reasons -- primarily, my wife and I weren't married 2 years ago and she's not a student so she wouldn't have been able to move with me to the US. Alsoit was the first time either of us living alone, so it was easier to stay in Canada (although we moved across the country and are actually further away from home than most places in US). Lastly, I had also thought it would be really hard to go to the US, economically, but that turns out to be untrue. The plan was to do MSc in Canada and apply for PhD in both Canada and US and we recently decided on a US place.

Funding is harder to secure (most fellowships are only for US citizens, or for Canadians staying in Canada) but you won't have to pay international tuition. Well, the department funding you would have to pay it, so while it doesn't change your cost, the higher cost for the school means they accept fewer international students. For example, the University of California (UC) schools have a very low international student rate (10% compared to ~30% for most places). Ironically, it is easier for Canadians to get into higher ranked private schools (Caltech, Ivy League etc.) than even second tier public schools because of this funding issue. For the sciences, most PhD students will be fully funded, so if you can get in, you usually don't have to worry about finances too much, unless you are trying to support two people on one graduate student stipend. That is, you will probably be just as well funded in the US as in Canada, but it may be harder to get admitted to US schools.

So, when it's time to apply, it does take a little bit more work to put together US applications (especially writing the General and Subject (if necessary) GREs). But, like you shouldn't discount your undergrad school for the stigma, you shouldn't discount US schools for economical reasons (you can always turn them down if they offer an unsustainable funding package). But if you have other reasons to stay in Canada (or to avoid the US), then that's a different story!

So I guess in the end my advice is that I'd rather put up with a few academic snobs acting superior to me than to just plan my career around what everyone else thinks I should do rather than what I feel I should do.

Best advice in this thread!

[havoks]

I won't say which school, but I visited a school in Canada and spoke with several of the graduate students there. More than half of them attended that school for their undergrad and that was the reason I was so reluctant to go to that school; it wasn't a "top-tier" school to begin with, and the students seemed delusional about the reputation their department had. E.g., "I stayed [here] because the program is the best in Canada ... You also get a lot of experience on the way to your PhD. You need to write a master's thesis... even if it doesn't work out most of the time, no other schools give you that experience." I was speaking to students that were in their 1st to 5th years. This made me realize two few things: their students are poorly informed/trained, and I would have to be working with them. Thankfully, I got a MUCH better offer a few days later... but it seems like, for that school, "academic inbreeding" was creating some issues ("closed-mindedness"). I would not have wanted to graduate from a school with a reputation for matriculating mostly their own UGs for their grad programs.

Regarding the student saying that they stayed with their UG school because they have the best program in Canada... when I was discussing schools with my professors/mentors, they gave me advice on which schools had great programs that they recommended I try applying to. They listed schools that I would have never thought of myself. When I brought up "that school" one of the professors said bluntly "why the hell would you want to go there?"

Honestly not sure how this all fits with the conversation here but thought I'd share anyways.

[TakeruK]

I won't say which school, but I visited a school in Canada and spoke with several of the graduate students there. More than half of them attended that school for their undergrad and that was the reason I was so reluctant to go to that school; it wasn't a "top-tier" school to begin with, and the students seemed delusional about the reputation their department had. ... it seems like, for that school, "academic inbreeding" was creating some issues ("closed-mindedness"). I would not have wanted to graduate from a school with a reputation for matriculating mostly their own UGs for their grad programs.

I'd definitely agree that students who stay at their UG school for graduate programs can't really say that they have the best program, since it is the only experience that they have had. It's not even a sure thing even if the school is a top-tier one, and the best program is pretty subjective so that it would probably vary from subfield to subfield. Although staying at your UG institution *may* not be the best career move, it doesn't make you a bad researcher/scientist/person as implied by a numbered list in an above post! There's no reason to judge people based on their career decisions (not saying that you are, havoks, but some people seem to).

[Behavioral]

In Social Psych, etc., though, a Stanford/Michigan/Ohio State undergrad really has little reason to go elsewhere unless it's another formidable university since they're at what's generally considered the top-top of the discipline.

[lewin]

^^That's all I was tying to say, that it's possible for people to have reasonable, professional reasons to stay put.

[carlyhylton]

Thank you all for your input! I think we can reach the conclusion that it's good to diversify, however there are reasons why on would stay at the same institution from undergraduate to graduate studies.

[MakeYourself]

Thank you all for your input! I think we can reach the conclusion that it's good to diversify, however there are reasons why on would stay at the same institution from undergraduate to graduate studies.

And I'll just add to this that people should stop being so concerned with judging others on their grad school choices and focus on their own lives.