NYT Article Re: Sense of Entitlement to Good Grades

[synthla]

I'm sure some others have seen this in yesterday's NYT: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/18/education/18college.html

An excerpt:

Nearly two-thirds of the students surveyed said that if they explained to a professor that they were trying hard, that should be taken into account in their grade.

Jason Greenwood, a senior kinesiology major at the University of Maryland echoed that view.

[Tonights]

Oh my god. My jaw literally dropped when I read that. THIS IS COLLEGE. YOU DO NOT GET AN "A FOR EFFORT" IN COLLEGE. It's not kindergarten, it's not Snugglenet University. I mean really. It's not the professors' job to cuddle these folks and help them coast.

Then again, as an undergrad I worked as a writing coach and I truly could not believe how some of the folks I helped even managed to be admitted - or why they wanted to be admitted in the first place! People who put in no effort, don't try, don't even want to try.... *head explodes *

[ewurgler]

This is so annoying--it really bothers me that my undergraduate experience is like night and day to mostly everyone else I know.

Grades completely took a back seat after I found something I was truly interested in and the majority of people around me did the minimum possible to get into law school, mba, or make lots of money.

I'm not sure what makes them so entitled, but I DO think the focus on money or a graduate career that will ultimately make you money (law school) makes average students feel deserving about grades because they have a career goal/lifestyle goal that requires it.

All I have to say is WATCH OUT for me as a TA. That shit will not fly when I am grading papers.

College is about disorientation, rethinking and challenging much of what we assume to be "true" and "real." I can't think of 3 other people in my undergrad who shared this view.

[Tonights]

All I have to say is WATCH OUT for me as a TA. That shit will not fly when I am grading papers.

Amen. I'm nice, but not that nice.

[Sonic]

That quotation sounds like a high school student! "But the teacher told me to do this, so I did it. Why did the teacher give me a C???". Total lack of responsibility.

My professors (who would have killed me if I called them 'teachers' in the press) really tried to set the burden of the work on us. They were very much "I've given you the tools, go use them". Still, I think a lot of students expected what the professors called "The Magic B". Students would flip if they got lower than a B, some worked just enough to achieve the B, and I think many expected that borderline satisfactory work would earn them the B (like magic!).

Magic B seekers be warned: sign up for a different section.

[Dreams]

Oh boy do I know about this. I faced this before when teaching university freshmen. Let's say many got an F that semester. I think that attitude is ridiculous, and it does not instill good work ethic in the students. I still see it in the students, but

fortunately not in any of the classes I teach.

[synthla]

I think the difficulty in combatting this mentality (and it goes to the issue of grade inflation as well) is that so many universities have bought into very simplistic methods of student evaluation of professors (and/or TAs), and if there is any sense by the professor that these evaluations might mean something in terms of compensation, promotion or being attractive on the job market, there's pressure to give that magic B even on marginal work because of the high correlation between the grade a student receives and how they evaluate the professor. It's ridiculous, but when you look at studies on grade inflation, it's there.

[ewurgler]

I know several professors at my undergrad university who specifically told the TAs to make the average a B, regardless of the work. THe professor was instructed by the admin to make this the average. Lame.

[was1984]

This is what happens when large portions of the population to go to college.

College is the new high school.

[t_ruth]

Oh boy do I know about this. I faced this before when teaching university freshmen. Let's say many got an F that semester. I think that attitude is ridiculous, and it does not instill good work ethic in the students. I still see it in the students, but

fortunately not in any of the classes I teach.

but the excerpt shown suggests work ethic isn't the issue. The students are trying as hard as they can, but they just don't have the ability in that particular subject (or they have gaps in their knowledge from previous education that is causing their current mediocrity).

[Dreams]

but the excerpt shown suggests work ethic isn't the issue. The students are trying as hard as they can, but they just don't have the ability in that particular subject (or they have gaps in their knowledge from previous education that is causing their current mediocrity).

I see your point and you are correct. Perhaps I was tying a bit more in. In my case I was referring to students who fail to utilize the extra opportunities to get up to speed workwise with the expectations of the class.

My first 3 sentences hold though. I have had students come to me with the effort bit before. And they did not heed suggestions to either take a lower prep-esque class, or utilize outside assistance I offered. Effort without the required result will still not get you an A

[wandatheavenger]

While I find effort to be very important, the simple fact is that we grade on performance, the mastery of the content area, not how hard the student tries to master it. And I don't buy the argument that a student trying their hardest might still fail due to a lack of background knowledge. With the magic of the internet, information has become available on just about every topic, if one only wishes to take the time to look for it. And if it's not online, a student might have to resort to one of those sneaky little buggers called a library *gasp!* Heaven forbid they be responsible for knowing stuff.

[synthla]

A silver lining to the horrible economic conditions through which this country is suffering is that people might step back and stop taking things for granted, and with that might go some of the sense of entitlement that permeated so much of our society and inevitably seeped down from parents to children. The first seven years of this century are already looking like another world... if you're bored, watch an old episode of The O.C.. I ran across one while flipping channels the other night and it already seems incredibly dated, given that it celebrated a world of excess that no longer exists for many people. Hard to believe how fast things can change. Let's hope it at least acts to reground people like the student in the article.

[t_ruth]

it might help, but the entire "you are special just the way you are" campaign was going on through the early 90s when there was a recession (though a smaller/less severe one).

[gadhelyn]

I sit in a room filled with books, give me a diploma!

[discoapple]

Although I dislike the sense of entitlement expressed by students in the article, I can kind of understand the "A for Effort" argument.

Putting in a lot of effort usually (USUALLY) results in quality work and therefore a satisfactory grade. Then again, if you attend every class and office hours session, do all the work, study hard and STILL can't pull off a decent grade, you probably have bigger issues than your GPA.

[Yellow#5]

I used to know this guy who mas a math TA. Calculus I TAs have the hardest road, as far as I'm concerned, because they get into the PhD program to do theoretical mathmatics, then wind up having to explain begining calculus to Freshmen who somehow managed not to take any math in high school -- ever.

When this guy got a sense that students were conditioned to complain for high grades, he would make sure they got a C-. A limited number of "Ds" or "Fs" could be retaken with a "compelling excuse" at my undergrad uni, but a C- is forever.

In the current atmosphere of grade inflation, a C- is as bad as an F.

[t_ruth]

Although I dislike the sense of entitlement expressed by students in the article, I can kind of understand the "A for Effort" argument.

Putting in a lot of effort usually (USUALLY) results in quality work and therefore a satisfactory grade. Then again, if you attend every class and office hours session, do all the work, study hard and STILL can't pull off a decent grade, you probably have bigger issues than your GPA(emphasis added).

I don't know about this. If this were true, then *everyone* who put forth maximum effort should be able to earn an A (or at least a . What about grading on a curve? How do the people w/exceptional ability differentiate themselves in this scenario?

[ewurgler]

I don't know about this. If this were true, then *everyone* who put forth maximum effort should be able to earn an A (or at least a . What about grading on a curve? How do the people w/exceptional ability differentiate themselves in this scenario?

I agree with this, and for me was extremely frustrated. I know I shouldn't care much about grades, only that I learn, but when my work is far superior and gets an A, and someone has a paper that does the assignment with no particular flair, creativity or innovative arguments and gets an A-, it sucks.

[synthla]

I sit in a room filled with books, give me a diploma!

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=908 see last panel

[gadhelyn]

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=908 see last panel

heh, that's where I got that from

[rising_star]

Then again, if you attend every class and office hours session, do all the work, study hard and STILL can't pull off a decent grade, you probably have bigger issues than your GPA.

There are times I put in a lot of work, learned a lot, and still got a B-. Why? Because I didn't master the material in the course. Sometimes you can do all the attending and effort stuff and still not do well. In my case, it was because the class presumed a lot of background knowledge I didn't have. So just to understand the 200 pgs of reading, I had to do another 200 or so. Lots of effort and not a great grade. Of course I also never complained about it to the prof...

[miratrix]

Discoapple didn't say "get an A," though, it was "get a decent grade." A B- is a decent grade. It's passing, but shows that you're not doing above-average work, and isn't that what it's supposed to say? If you couldn't pass despite lots of effort, that would show that something's wrong, and you shouldn't be in the course for some reason.

I think grade inflation and entitlement isn't just a matter of college being "the new high school" and standards dropping, though. Grade inflation is just as bad at selective private schools as at mid-range state schools, maybe more so...I've heard the argument that students who get into Ivy by definition have a higher average level of work than students who get into Hometown U, so it isn't fair to "penalize" students in the middle of the pack at Ivy by giving them a B for work that would theoretically earn an A at Hometown U because their lower GPA would put them at a disadvantage after graduation. That argument seems like BS to me because you can't compare the work of students you actually have to the work of hypothetical students elsewhere, and because Ivy admission isn't supposed to give you a 4.0 GPA for all of college because you are soooo vastly superior to the rest of the world.

Also, when an A- or B is the average grade, a single professor or TA who wants to buck the system actually DOES have to consider the effects on students. If you're the only grader in the school who gives out Cs and Ds to more than a few seriously struggling students, then the average students who are working hard and getting Cs really will have a harder time getting scholarships, maintaining their averages to stay in sports, or applying to study abroad and grad school than students who take the same class with a different professor. Is THAT really fair? Changing the system has to be school-wide, so it effects all students equally (some schools have tried to control grade inflation institutionally, like BU, and become known for its lower overall GPAs).

[discoapple]

t_ruth makes a valid point, which raises the question:

How many people actually put in 100% effort into all of their classes all of the time? And not just 100% effort, but 100% efficient, effective effort? I know I didn't in undergrad. (Although I clearly put in enough effort if I'm on this forum...hopefully XP) And if you are naturally exceptional, gifted, etc. that just means that it requires less effort for you to gain full mastery of the material, therefore that A or B is much easier to get. Still, I know plenty of exceptionally gifted people who never put in the effort and flunked out of college or had pretty dismal grades.

This is an awesome thread, btw.

---EDIT----

And if we're talking about efficient effort, then I guess we have to define what that is. Spending two hours reading an article and perusing facebook is not the same as two hours of reading an article and using critical analysis to relate that article to the class, real world, etc. I think the standard for "good effort" has gone down over the years which is likely related to grade inflation.

[Yellow#5]

If an A or A- was not taken as given, students might be motivated to seek out tips on studying efficiently, or at least take an honest look at their efforts and try and improve them on their own. (i.e., It's great that you studied 8 hours on Saturday, but next time, don't study with the TV on.)