"unacceptable" looking for a second oppinion

[pirategirlchristina]

Hi

I was hoping to get a second opinion about grad school. I had initially brought up the idea of going to a prof I've been working with on my honors thesis he asked my gpa, 3.5, and replied "unacceptable" from there he said I could only get in if I ace the GRE and get all As senior year. I have looked at other sources including this forum and it looks like there may be options for me, but I am so unsure because of his opinion that I am seeking opinions from others.

Right now I am a junior: history, geography, and anthropology major at Syracuse U. I am in the honors program and currently working on an thesis for departmental distinction. Sophomore year I worked as a research assistant as part of a group studying scholarly communication, but this was using anthropological methodology. My distinction thesis is in the area I would like to go to grad school for, it is on radical religious groups in Early Modern England. There may be some profs that will write me letters, but I tend to be quieter in class so I am not sure about how strong these will be. Still have yet to take the GRE (since I've been worried there's no shot of getting in).

I would like to end up with a PhD, but would be totally fine with doing a MA program first. I just would like to know if I stand any chance of getting into a graduate program within my interest area or are my qualifications "unacceptable"?

Thanks!

[emmm]

Your prof sounds like an idiot. You do have some work to do, though. Research schools you might be interested in applying to (you could apply to both MA and PhD programs). You can call schools for information. Most are helpful about providing information to prospective applicants. Start working on your SOP -- mine took me forever to write. Get the GRE out of the way. Good luck!

[New England Nat]

Yeah, your prof is a moron. Don't ask him for your letter of rec either. If he doesn't think you should be going to grad school he wont write the right kind of letter.

[Muna]

Sounds like that Prof. has "issues" !

YOU CAN DO ANYTHING AND DONT LET ANYONE TELL YOU OTHERWISE.

Let us know "when" your in Grad school and the program.

PS: Note its when and not IF.

Cheers,

Muna

[Muna]

Am at Johns Hopkins University studying towards my MA.

[TakeruK]

A 3.5 GPA is definitely not "unacceptable"! But it won't put you at the top of the competition either. I guess the good thing is that you still have 1 more semester to change it (since you wil be submitting applications in ~6 months I guess).

It sounds like you will have 2 research-based LORs -- work in your sophomore year and your honours thesis prof. It shouldn't matter that the sophomore year work isn't exactly related to your intended grad school field since research experience is valuable research experience. I disagree with the person who said to not get a LOR from your honours prof -- missing one from a research advisor, especially on a project directly related to what you're applying to, is a big flag in applications, I think.

Maybe it would help if you asked the prof for advice on what he thinks you're missing (maybe it's more than GPA in his opinion) to be an "acceptable" graduate student and then try to show him you have these traits by application time. He might be wrong about you but it might be worth it to get his support because that would really help your application.

As for your last LOR, I guess you are out of research time (you are working on your thesis this summer and all of senior year too?) so it might be too late to find another research advisor. But you still have one more semester to make an impact on a prof -- maybe try to get a LOR from a prof that teaches several of the senior classes in your field, if possible.

Good luck!! You certainly can get into grad programs with a 3.5 GPA, so don't let the comment discourage you (easier said than done, I know!)

[3point14]

I'm not in your field, but I'll be attending my top choice school this fall, and my undergrad GPA was a 3.147. Everyone else has already said it, but a 3.5 is definitely not "unacceptable." Your GPA will not be a negative mark on your application, but a higher one would be a slight positive. That said, your research experience and letters of recommendation are going to be way more important in the decision-making process

[TMP]

Hate to say this but if you really want to go for a PhD, switch thesis advisers ASAP. You need to work with someone who is excited about you, your work ,and your future plans....AND help you prepare for graduate school. Even if he's in your field, you should think about switching to someone else- perhaps another European historian. Adcoms are going to look at your application and realize that a LOR from your honors thesis adviser is missing and wonder why. So you definitely need to find a honors thesis adviser who can be happy recommending you for a PhD program.

[New England Nat]

I am in your field and a student at one of the top PhD programs in the country. I can assure you that this guy is poison for your letter of recommendation. He's going to use all the key words to describe you as "unacceptable". I agree with TMP, you shuld try and change thesis advisers.

[Weepsie]

3.5 is surely an upper Second Class, if not nearly a first. I would do as others do and look for other references at least.

[TakeruK]

Hate to say this but if you really want to go for a PhD, switch thesis advisers ASAP. You need to work with someone who is excited about you, your work ,and your future plans....AND help you prepare for graduate school. Even if he's in your field, you should think about switching to someone else- perhaps another European historian. Adcoms are going to look at your application and realize that a LOR from your honors thesis adviser is missing and wonder why. So you definitely need to find a honors thesis adviser who can be happy recommending you for a PhD program.

Agree -- I wrote the previous post under the assumption switching wasn't an option for you, which was a bad assumption I realise now!

[theregalrenegade]

I'm not the greatest example - because my story is not typical and my situation is quite different - BUT - I got into a MA program in history with a 2.7 cumulative GPA, no thesis or research experience, and had been out of academia for 10 years.

I didn't get into the best program and I wasn't funded, but my goal was to get in where I could and work my *ss off to get into a killer PhD program. I'm in a much better position now for those programs that will be the best fit for me in the future.

Nothing is impossible. Listen to what your thesis adviser has to say and use it to your benefit. Learn from it. But never let anyone tell you that you can't do something.

[CageFree]

Hi

I was hoping to get a second opinion about grad school. I had initially brought up the idea of going to a prof I've been working with on my honors thesis he asked my gpa, 3.5, and replied "unacceptable" from there he said I could only get in if I ace the GRE and get all As senior year. I have looked at other sources including this forum and it looks like there may be options for me, but I am so unsure because of his opinion that I am seeking opinions from others.

Right now I am a junior: history, geography, and anthropology major at Syracuse U. I am in the honors program and currently working on an thesis for departmental distinction. Sophomore year I worked as a research assistant as part of a group studying scholarly communication, but this was using anthropological methodology. My distinction thesis is in the area I would like to go to grad school for, it is on radical religious groups in Early Modern England. There may be some profs that will write me letters, but I tend to be quieter in class so I am not sure about how strong these will be. Still have yet to take the GRE (since I've been worried there's no shot of getting in).

I would like to end up with a PhD, but would be totally fine with doing a MA program first. I just would like to know if I stand any chance of getting into a graduate program within my interest area or are my qualifications "unacceptable"?

Thanks!

Has the guy ever been in an AdCom? Cause that's just ridiculous. I had a 3.7 in major and barely a 3.1 overall, and got into some really good programs, even after having been out of school for 10+ years. Ask him if he would support you with a strong letter... if he hesitates, change advisors.

[abdefghijkl]

Hi Christina,

You are not unacceptable, this prof is just being difficult and unimaginitive. As others have said here, you do have some work to do to make sure you boost your grades in courses related to your specific area of graduate research. Also find more supportive profs. who will help you and write you a strong letter (which sometimes can include an explanation of an imperfect academic transcript. I had a VERY imperfect one and now when I write letters for students who also have an imperfect one -- which is the norm, by the way -- I will say things like "so and so is extremely talented in her area of specific research, a fact that is not expressed in her gpa or early academic history... etc." Hang in there and make sure you do what YOU want to do. Also, I did an MA at a more middling school so that I could get into the PhD at the top tier program - so this strategy is a very good one!

I have a post about this on my website that might help you put things in perspective: http://www.mygradschoolcoach.com/C/fix_your_imperfect_academic_transcript.html

[Riotbeard]

Agree with everybody else. 3.5 is not ideal but by no means horrible. With another year you can bring that up too, but even if you don't it won't be the end of the world if you have a good applictation otherwise. (especially not for just an MA program).

[AbaNader]

Hi

I was hoping to get a second opinion about grad school. I had initially brought up the idea of going to a prof I've been working with on my honors thesis he asked my gpa, 3.5, and replied "unacceptable" from there he said I could only get in if I ace the GRE and get all As senior year. I have looked at other sources including this forum and it looks like there may be options for me, but I am so unsure because of his opinion that I am seeking opinions from others.

Right now I am a junior: history, geography, and anthropology major at Syracuse U. I am in the honors program and currently working on an thesis for departmental distinction. Sophomore year I worked as a research assistant as part of a group studying scholarly communication, but this was using anthropological methodology. My distinction thesis is in the area I would like to go to grad school for, it is on radical religious groups in Early Modern England. There may be some profs that will write me letters, but I tend to be quieter in class so I am not sure about how strong these will be. Still have yet to take the GRE (since I've been worried there's no shot of getting in).

I would like to end up with a PhD, but would be totally fine with doing a MA program first. I just would like to know if I stand any chance of getting into a graduate program within my interest area or are my qualifications "unacceptable"?

Thanks!

I've been in your same position (similar GPA, profile, etc.) except I had the benefits of some publications. I cannot stress how important letters of recommendations (LORs) are. When you ask for a LOR, don't ask IF they can write you one, ask if they can write you a STRONG one. If they don't explicitly say their LOR will be strong (i.e. specific with examples showing why you are a great candidate) then don't ask them to write you one. Ideally the LOR should be from someone who knows you intimately (not just, she got an A in my class intimate) and is well known in their field and/or has connections at places you will be applying to. If you can't find the perfect LOR writer (and probably won't) try to mix and match so you have a good combination of writers.

Since you have an year till you finish, use this time to "prep" your LOR writers. Going to them just before you want a LOR won't get you a good one. Give them a chance to know you, talk to you, ask questions about courses, pitch research ideas (don't worry about how wacky they sound - they are great conversation starters and shows you are thinking out of the box), just relax around the professors and they'll write you a good LOR. Everyone has their personality types and professors tend to be very rigid, especially with what they expect from their students. Some relax and open up when a student shows confidence, assertiveness and maturity. Some others become tense and threatened when this happens so they like students to well just act like minions. You just have to read their responses and adjust your behavior with them to put them at ease so they can get to know you better. Remember, you are just an undergraduate at the start of the day, but with a little work and a little persistence, you can become much more than that. That is what you need for an LOR.

I noticed professors love to talk about themselves and about their work. They love it even more when you come to them for their expert advice (it is usually good IMHO). This is more true of junior professors than the senior ones who have been jaded by years of brown nosing by both undergraduate as well as graduates, and of course the mandatory awards that come with faculty promotion. You can take advantage of this by asking their advice about whether to attend graduate school; what their personal opinion is about it. This will give them a chance to get to know you and you can open up to them since they can't really answer that question for you without knowing you. At another stage you can inquire about what schools to apply to. Give them ownership of the situation, make them feel invested in your success. They will always be on "your side" if you do that.

The other important part of the application is the statement of purpose. You can review these with faculty members as well. Show it to them and ask "would you accept as a graduate student based on this SOP?". The SOP is really important. You need to show determination, focus and maturity. You need to talk as if you know exactly what you are going to do and why you are going to do it. Leave the generalities for the beginning and the end. But the main parts of the SOP should show determination, focus and maturity. Its tough to do it, but I found envisioning success to be the easiest way to get beyond the SOP. First envision your SOP being this amazing thing that your professors and all the grad schools will be awed by, then believe with conviction that you WILL write it like that. It takes a while to get this and is really a paradigm shift for most people but it helps tremendously to get over yourself and frees your mind to write like a beast. Otherwise, you'll be second guessing yourself, looking for some measure of unknown perfection, copying others, etc. Just free your mind and I'm sure you'll write a stellar SOP that really shows who you are and what you want.

I've gone through two application cycles, attended school at 3-4 different institutions - some ranked in the top 10 in their field, worked under 4 different professors, so I think I can say I've "been there and done that".

[GuitarSlayer]

As everyone has said above, find someone more supportive and don't bother getting a letter of rec from this character. What you lack in one area can be made up for in others -- as you said, you have time to raise your GPA anyway.

[thedig13]

A 3.5 GPA from Syracuse University is far from "unacceptable." Obviously, you still have time to raise your GPA (which you should try to do), but also keep in mind that there are a multitude of other ways to compensate for a below-average GPA. For instance, language training. An individual with interest in graduate study in History can make him/herself a more competitive applicant by developing some background in relevant languages (to get an idea of what to start learning, look up which languages are required to get a PhD in your field).

And, like others have said, your professor is an idiot. Find more supportive/competent individuals for your LORs. If you don't like speaking out in class, start stopping by office hours to chat about the content and make yourself known to your educators. Remember, no professor wants to write a letter for a student whose only accomplishment (as far as the prof is concerned) is getting a good grade in the class. Get to know your profs, and give them a chance to be impressed by you, your interests, your achievements, your ability, your potential, and your goals. You seem like a promising-enough candidate, but the bottom line is that, one way or another, you need to establish enough of a relationship so that they can remember your name and see as much of that promise as possible so that they can write some good recommendations for you. A big part of success in graduate school is establishing relationships and networking anyway, so it'll be good to start practicing now.

Ultimately, a master's program may be inevitable. While your GPA isn't "unacceptable," it isn't going to impress anybody, and you may need the extra coursework, experience, writing, and networking opportunities of a master's program to definitively prove to strong PhD programs that you have what it takes.

Edited June 25, 2012 by thedig13

[pirategirlchristina]

Thanks for the support, I really feel so much better about everything reading all that has been posted. i will definitly start networking more and will focus on a masters program for now. I don't know whether or not I will ask this prof for a LOR. He has been super supportive of my project, been totally on board with it thought its a bit out of his area and he gave me a few books to get me started, but he did make that comment. I think I will see how things are in the fall and make the decision then. Thanks I appreciate all the opinions

[Usmivka]

Everyone has assumed the prof was being a jerk, but maybe this is just how he communicates? If he is otherwise super supportive as described, maybe he was engaging in hyperbole to make a point, or to try to push you towards higher achievement in the time you have left? Clearly this was poor approach for him to take, and rather insensitive. But he could still be totally behind you, and wants you to succeed.

I had a research adviser somewhat like this, he'd always ask for more, say I needed to do better at x, y or z. That made the compliments once a year or so so much sweeter. He not only wrote me stellar letters of recommendation, but actually wrote another prof he knew in a top tier program and convinced them to try and recruit me prior to the application process.

Maybe this guy really is an ass, but maybe, just maybe, he just didn't communicate clearly.

[TMP]

I'd still be suspicious. I'd push them why that 3.5 is unacceptabe. If he doesn't have concrete evidence to back up his statement, I'd still run away. He has no idea what the heck he's doing. PhD admissions are so competitive that you cannot afford to have one less-than-stellar LOR.

[Sigaba]

Why is the guidance that an aspiring graduate student endeavor to get all As in her final year in college and to ace the GREs this controversial without any evidence of the OP taking the guidance offered in post numbers 20 and 21? (Are we certain that this history professor doesn't say "unacceptable" as a method of raising the bar for those students with the most potential? Do we know that this professor doesn't have data indicating that applicants from that department with a GPA and GREs below a certain point have a low success rate when it comes to gaining admission to graduate programs in history?)

• How badly do you want to go to graduate school in history?
  
• Are you saying that the core guidance is unsound: getting all A get all As and acing the GRE won't make you a stronger applicant?
  
• Are you going to have a crisis of confidence every time a professor says "no"?
  
• Are you going to make it a habit of second guessing history professors when you get feedback you don't like or are you going to find ways to rise to the challenge?
  
  IME, studying history gets harder, not easier, the more one does it You will always encounter those who will say "no," or "unacceptable" or "unconvincing" or "irrelevant" or "this doesn't work." IME, this type of feedback--even when offered by a professor while he's standing on your head--is at least as useful as comments that say "Interesting" "good job" and "well said."
  
  Here's my specific guidance for you.
  • Reread post numbers 20 and 21.
    
    • Use those posts to develop questions to ask this professor what he meant.
      
    • Next year, stay focused on school, kick ass and take names in your courses and on the GRE.
      
    • Develop relationships with other professors.
      
    • These relationships will
      
      • help you grow as a historian,
        
      • provide additional options for LoRs, and, potentially,
        
      • provide opportunities to gain added insight to the professor who says "unacceptable."
        
      • Avoid developing the habit of second guessing yourself if you get guidance you don't like.
        
        • There's a difference between coaching and personal criticism.
          

        [*]Avoid developing the habit of airing controversial comments in the open.

        [*]Consider carefully the source when you solicit advice.

        [*]Sometimes, those who respect and admire you the most are going to be the ones who tell you that you need to try harder and do better.

        The following questions are directed at the non-historians in this thread. While the questions are critical, they should not be taken as personal criticism--they are offered from a position of respect.

    [*]Are you really helping when you offer guidance in a field of study that is very distant from yours?

    [*]Does the fact that you've gained admission to graduate programs--an accomplishment that should be celebrated--automatically mean you know what it takes to get into graduate programs? (That is, have you been debriefed and told "this is why you got in" or are you making assumptions?)

    [*]Is it realistic to assume that every professor is going to respond to requests for guidance in the manner one would like?

    [*]Is rejecting a professor's feedback simply because one doesn't like the comments or the tone a sustainable practice?

Edited June 27, 2012 by Sigaba

[TMP]

To illustrate Sigaba's point- just reminded me.

I had a prof who was tough, I mean, in the sense she offered a lot of constructive criticism and questioned my thinking and actions. She was all okay about writing a LOR the first two times I applied to PhD programs (no program complained about my LORs). She had confidence in me but she wanted to see more. After my second cycle, I went back to her and said, "look, I don't know if i can do this again... I have accomplished X, Y, and Z. But I don't know if i can apply to PhD programs agian...." First time in our 3 year relationship she actually said "yes, you can! I think you're ready now." Now she is amazingly supportive of my endeavors. Sometimes, professors want to see students struggle because you will struggle a lot in graduate school and beyond.

But I do stand with my previous post- question him on his evidence first. If he has offered evidence, then I'd consider working your ass off. Could be that kind of professor who sets a high bar.

[thedig13]

In lieu of a few posts which point out that perhaps the professor was attempting to motivate and push rather than to discourage, I've chosen to re-consider my thoughts on this matter.

Obviously, this professor sees (or saw) enough potential in you to have supervised a research project to a degree which you found satisfactory. I think it's a bit of an exaggeration that a 3.5 won't get you into graduate school, but it's certainly true that it's on the low side, and (unless you raise it, which you should try to) it would make you an easy target for ad-coms that need a quick-and-easy way to filter out what they perceive as weak prospects. You should indeed ask him whether he meant "unacceptable" as an absolute assessment on your chances for graduate school or as an expression of his disappointment at your level of academic achievement relative to your potential. In retrospect, the OP gave us a single quoted word devoid of much context, rather than a transcript of the entire conversation (which would've been unreasonable to expect anyway), which may have led to the jumping of conclusions.

If the professor did indeed intend to mean that your chances of graduate school acceptance are nonexistent, then obviously, I stand by my previous advice. If he clarifies and says that he meant that he expects more out of his students, and especially one who's serious about getting into graduate school, or that you can still get in if you start bumping up your GPA, then that's a fair-enough statement to make, and you should (maybe) still consider him for your LORs. Like TMP, I'd have questions about whether or not he'd be able to convincingly describe you as a promising young undergraduate with otherworldly potential for graduate work (and you don't want to waste any LORs on anything short of that if you can avoid it).

[Sigaba]

@thedig--

IME, professors teach in a variety of ways. It is possible that the professor will offer neither clarification nor explanation as an additional demonstration of being in the OP's corner.

Graduate school requires an increasingly thick skin. There's no better time to start developing it than during the application process.