Reasons faculty do NOT give students they KNOW letters of recommendation

[neuroingrid]

I am in the second year of my 2 year Master of Philosophy course. I will spend this entire year conducting research in a particular lab in a particular department.

Unlike my colleagues, my research supervisor / mentor/ thesis guide / major professor himself approached me and asked me to work with him. In this school, there was an entrance exam for which there were only two seats, I had topped the merit list. I will be working with this professor until the end of March next year. So far, I have one paper that has been accepted for publication, the second paper has been drafted that needs to be edited and sent for publication. My professor treats me very well, he considers me as his friend and colleague, and goes out of his way to support me.

Two weeks ago, I approached him in his office to inquire about the procedure to obtain a letter of recommendation. He seemed to have been quite taken aback at my query. So he asked, "What do you need a letter of recommendation for?". To which I replied, "I have obtained a letter of recommendation from every lab I have worked as a research assistant, it's for my reference". Then, he said, "Your stint is till the 31st of March, why are you asking for a letter of recommendation this early?" Then I said that I wasn't asking for a LOR right away, but just the procedure to obtain one. I planned on asking him this early, just in case he was busy during that time of the year.

Before approaching my major professor, I had asked his senior students for advice regarding this issue. Two of his senior most students told me that he was very good in writing supportive letters of recommendation for all of the students who had worked with him.

My major professor is internationally renowned with numerous research publications in very high impact factor journals. My seniors told me that this was the first time in his entire career that he had asked a student to work with him. Usually, practically every student wants to work with him, and he takes only outstanding students, but in my case, since he had asked me, I couldn't refuse.

Yesterday, he seemed to have been very pleased with my work, so I took the opportunity to ask him again. This time I said, "What are your expectations so that I can earn a letter of recommendation?" The look on his face startled me. His expression was that of hurt / dismay / anger / fear. Then he said, "What did you say, say again?" Then I was so initimidated that I said, "I felt that I have not been meeting your expectations". To which he replied, "No. You have been doing very well. Just continue doing your work and start writing".

After my conversation with him yesterday, I still feel like I am in a dilemma. I still do not understand if he is willing or unwilling to write me a letter of recommendation, and if he does not want to write one for me, what might be his reason for his reluctance? Is it because he doesn't want to let go of me? In fact, he had asked me to stay with him for my PhD as well by telling me that he had many ideas for a long-term PhD project for me. I would be very grateful for insights and advices. Thanks in advance!

[Usmivka]

Sounds to me like you've approached him too early in your stint and without a specific goal for the letter. A recommendation letter isn't very convincing if it isn't specific in what it is recommending you for (X university, Y program, Z job, whatever) anyway, so it could just be he thinks this is a frivolous request. Or worse, since you gave him no background, it may seem to him as though you are trying to jump ship and abandon your project. In fact, since it sounds like you haven't written up your work yet or published anything, I'm not sure how he could speak to your merits as a researcher yet.

A side note, just for the convenience of the other forum users: it would be easier to read your post if you left it in size 12 and the default font, no bold, and no giant gaps between paragraphs. Not that there is anything wrong with personalization, I just found it really difficult to read and follow.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Usmivka

[ktel]

Sounds like you're making an odd request, hence his confusion. It's very unusual to ask for reference letters "just for your reference". Typically they are written privately, and provided for things such as scholarships and grad school applications (as you know). He may be uncomfortable providing you with a letter just for you to read. I would agree with him in thinking that it is an odd request. Perhaps you should wait until you actually have a good reason to ask for a reference letter.

[neuroingrid]

Thanks so much for your post. Actually since I am new to this forum, for some reason, I really do not know why my post appeared the way it has. i tried to get it to normal readable fonts, but I couldn't. Sorry once more. It wasn't deliberate.

Well, actually, I have already authored 2 publications with him. The first has been accepted for publcation which will be in print shortly. The second one has been edited. The current project that I am on is in collaboration with another lab in another department. So that would take some time to plan and execute. Also, since the application deadlines for other PhD programs are fast approaching, and since it has been over 8 months since I have worked with this professor, (I officially got placed in his lab last month, but I was working with him since October of last year), I thought it would be just well on time to request a letter of recommendation before he got too busy and was away on say a conference.

Well, my point is, do any of you'll feel like he will or will not write me a letter of recommendation?

[neuroingrid]

Well, the reason I said that the letter was for my personal reference is that I wanted to be as tactful as was possible. Since he wants me to work with him for my PhD, I felt that if I would bluntly state i wanted to apply elsewhere, he would yell at me. But at all times that I have asked, he seems to have rejected my request.

Also, I do know that I am not allowed to see letters of recommendation. At all times, I have always waived my right. And even in this case, I wanted to obtain a letter that was sealed in an envelope. But, I wanted a letter.

[TakeruK]

I don't know how you phrased the request, or the other details, but from what you've shared, it sounds like you are just asking him to write you a letter of recommendation for you to file away.

Usually, we don't ask our profs for a letter until we actually need one for an upcoming application. Usually, we will never see this letter, it will either be submitted electronically directly to where-ever you are apply, mailed directly to where you are applying, or given to you in a sealed envelope that you will mail to a certain place.

That is, you will never just get one for you to keep.

It doesn't matter how long ago you last worked for him, you only ask for reference letters when you need them. For example, if you are applying to PhD programs this December, then you should ask for a reference letter around October or November. The procedure is usually dependent on where you are applying -- most commonly, you will enter the prof's name and email address on the online application form, which will give your prof an automatic email and submission form. Then they will take care of it when they have the time -- don't worry, they probably write a LOT of letters every year, so they are used to planning it around their travel etc. 1 month's notice is more than enough, unless they had asked for more time in advance.

I think this prof will write you a good letter, because he sounds like he is impressed with your work. It's just not the right time to ask for it now. Maybe it would clear things up if you explain the misunderstanding (if that's the case) and ask again when you are actually applying somewhere.

[TakeruK]

Also, I do know that I am not allowed to see letters of recommendation. At all times, I have always waived my right. And even in this case, I wanted to obtain a letter that was sealed in an envelope. But, I wanted a letter.

My question is ....why? This is very unusual in academia, because that letter is useless -- if you are honest and will never open it, then it's just envelope, who knows what's actually inside, and you can't submit that anywhere. If you intend to open it, and the prof knows this, then the letter is no longer confidential and won't contain useful information to anyone.

Again, you only get reference letters when you submit them to someone or someplace and if you chose your letter writer well, they won't be people who will forget what you did!

[neuroingrid]

See, actually I didn't mention this earlier, but the thing is that while we were still rotating in different departments, on numerous occasions HE asked me to do my dissertation with him. Then once I consented, he told me that he had long-term ideas for my PhD project. Then he indirectly asked me if I had plans of applying elsewhere. When I said, "No", he was jubilant!

I wonder how he will react if he gets to know of my plans to apply elsewhere. The reason I wanted a definite answer (either yes or no) is because, if he doesn't, I'll probably work elsewhere where the chances of obtaining one is cent percent.

[neuroingrid]

My question is ....why? This is very unusual in academia, because that letter is useless -- if you are honest and will never open it, then it's just envelope, who knows what's actually inside, and you can't submit that anywhere. If you intend to open it, and the prof knows this, then the letter is no longer confidential and won't contain useful information to anyone.

Again, you only get reference letters when you submit them to someone or someplace and if you chose your letter writer well, they won't be people who will forget what you did!

Well, because if I have to apply elsewhere, I will have the sealed envelope in hand, which I can hand in on the spot. In some cases, there are interviews and people do get selected on the spot. (provided they have completed all other formalities).

[TakeruK]

Okay, well first of all, if you do have plans to apply elsewhere, you should probably tell your supervisor the truth, because it does sound like you and him have a good relationship. You should at least not say you plan on staying when you aren't planning on staying. Lying will not help you get a good reference letter. If you are uncomfortable answering, maybe it's better to say that you are not sure.

Secondly, it's hard to ask for someone to write you a letter before you do the work that will result in a letter. Unless you have information otherwise, you should assume that everyone is willing to write you a letter and the quality of that letter depends on how you performed while working for them. The other students told you that the prof writes good letters. You say you have a good relationship with him, so all signs point to you getting a letter from him, but AFTER you've finished.

Finally, I think it's very strange that there are some places that will take a old reference letter, but I guess it's possible. Most other schools will want a recent reference letter, and your prof is going to put a date on the letter. They may be suspicious as to why you are handing in a letter that is 1+ years old instead of getting a recent one. Also, I'm sure your prof was happy to hear that you were staying for your PhD, but since it does sound like he respects what you do, he isn't going to try to sabotage your chances elsewhere. Well, at least it doesn't sound this way from what you've said. I don't think it's fair to assume that the prof will do this unless you have a good reason to, and if you do have a good reason to, then you shouldn't work with this guy!

It sounds like what you are doing is hurting your chances of a good reference letter and also your reputation at your school. But it does sound like a big misunderstanding. I would advise you to explain to the prof that you misunderstood how reference letters work and that you actually want to consider other places for PhD. You can say that his question caught you by surprise the first time, but after thinking about it further, you want to keep options open. People will respect your choice because there are many factors that determine where you want to do a PhD. You should probably say that you hope he will be able to write you a letter if you do end up applying at other places, but you don't need one right now.

I say this because there is a risk that you appear to just want to work in the lab to get a reference letter and that's all you care about. This probably will not be received well, and I think you should try to clear up the misunderstanding, somehow.

[ktel]

Your further explanation makes a lot more sense. I think it is probably pretty obvious to him that you are lying about why you want a reference letter. If somebody lied to me, I would be pretty hesitant to help too. You need to be honest with him, because it will only hurt your chances if you aren't. Explain to him why you want to apply elsewhere and ask him if he could write you a strong letter of reference. Unless he's very petty, he will probably agree.

[neuroingrid]

Your further explanation makes a lot more sense. I think it is probably pretty obvious to him that you are lying about why you want a reference letter. If somebody lied to me, I would be pretty hesitant to help too. You need to be honest with him, because it will only hurt your chances if you aren't. Explain to him why you want to apply elsewhere and ask him if he could write you a strong letter of reference. Unless he's very petty, he will probably agree.

Thank you so much for your advice. Well, actually some schools ask for letters of recommendation from both the most recent institutions as well as the immediate previous institution. In my experience when I have asked for letters of recommendation from professors with whom I have worked with many years ago, they still send the same LOR that was written for me when I first asked them.

Well, I think that my professor probably understood that I intended to apply elsewhere, which was why he was probably angry. Today, he spent most of his time praising me for trivial things and I didn't understand why he was doing so. But now when you suggested that he probably assumes that he thinks I'm applying elsewhere and not intending to work with him for my PhD, he is outrightly refusing to write me a letter.

I just wonder what to do!

[ANDS!]

HE asked me to do my dissertation with him. Then once I consented, he told me that he had long-term ideas for my PhD project. T

This should have gone in your opening post. THIS is why he is taken aback. It's like starting a long-term job that involves a significant amount of training and man hours to get you to where your boss needs you to be, and in the middle you say "Hey can I get a letter of rec for this new job opening up?" Not sure how old you are, but you shouldn't have done this, and I suspect a bit of academic/biological maturity on your part might have prevented this from happening in the first place.

In any case you have a couple of options - go to the prof. and let them know your full academic intentions so that the level of responsibility and work he is putting on you can be realigned, or simply continue working and get a LOR somewhere else.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Yeah, everyone has given you some really good advice. I don't know how you are as a person but from what you've told your way of going about this has come off as very awkward. Usually when you want a LOR, you approach the professor and ask him/her for a letter for a specific school for a specific speciality. The professor usually, if they think highly of you, will write information they think will be helpful to that school in whatever specialty you plan on pursuing there. Your indirect way of approaching the professor for a LOR seems very awkward and if you don't clear up any misunderstandings soon I can see the quality of the potential LOR dwindling.

[neuroingrid]

Yeah, everyone has given you some really good advice. I don't know how you are as a person but from what you've told your way of going about this has come off as very awkward. Usually when you want a LOR, you approach the professor and ask him/her for a letter for a specific school for a specific speciality. The professor usually, if they think highly of you, will write information they think will be helpful to that school in whatever specialty you plan on pursuing there. Your indirect way of approaching the professor for a LOR seems very awkward and if you don't clear up any misunderstandings soon I can see the quality of the potential LOR dwindling.

Thanks for your advice. But a senior student in the lab told me that there was once a student who just muddled up with what was assigned, but he still received a letter of recommendation. When all I did was find out what the PROCEDURE to obtain an LOR was in terms of how much time in advance the prof needed, the supporting documents such as my CV, etc, all I did was I tried to find out what the procedure to obtain an LOR was. But now since it turns out that he is reluctant, I will NEVER ask him again.

I thank all of you all for your advices.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Thanks for your advice. But a senior student in the lab told me that there was once a student who just muddled up with what was assigned, but he still received a letter of recommendation. When all I did was find out what the PROCEDURE to obtain an LOR was in terms of how much time in advance the prof needed, the supporting documents such as my CV, etc, all I did was I tried to find out what the procedure to obtain an LOR was. But now since it turns out that he is reluctant, I will NEVER ask him again.

I thank all of you all for your advices.

I don't know if he is reluctant or not. You're making him out to seem like a bad person. It seemed like he really liked you. I think he was just a little confused because you went by it awkwardly and because you told him you did want to stay to pursue a PhD. To get information about the procedure for obtaining a LOR you could have just informally asked him in conversation something along the lines of "if I ever plan to apply to another institution and I needed a LOR, would you be able to write one for me and how long in advance should I notify you?"

Edited June 22, 2012 by JoeyBoy718

[emmm]

If you are working in his lab, you most likely WILL need to ask him for a letter at some point. You do seem to have mucked things up, going about them the way you did. You probably need to decide relatively soon whether you're going to apply to different programs or stay and do a PhD with him. You WILL need a letter from him for your PhD. It will look very odd if you don't have one. You probably need to have a discussion about your future plans, so that you both know where things stand. If you're going to stay, let him know, so he doesn't have to worry about it. If you want to explore other options, but have not decided whether to stay or not, you should let him know that too.

[neuroingrid]

Something very interesting happened. I require animals for my work. There was some problem with obtaining animals in the stipulated time. So my advisor HIMSELF WENT to the chairperson of the animals ethics committee and spoke to her informing her that if the process wasn't sped up, my work would get hindered. It looks like he really cares about my career. So I think I'll not ever ask him for a letter of recommendation ever again.

[kaykaykay]

Are you from this country? You sound very confused about recommendation letters. The prof asked you whether you want to stay or not probably because he was deciding what job to assign to you. Probably you got the one that needs 5 more years of work because you said you wanted to work with him. Asking for a random recommendation letter is almost rude.If he does not know why he writes it it will be perfectly useless anyway. If he likes you and you would have answered you wanted to go elsewhere probably he would have helped you in several ways even if you have screwed up with the research but you were intelligent and skilled. That is perfectly common.

Well you made a social mess. I think you should talk to him as fast as possible, you should be very honest, humble and tell him that you will apply elsewhere too (nothing is sure in this life) and apply to your current place as well. Later he can fight for you in the recruitment phase.

Edited June 22, 2012 by kaykaykay

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

It looks like he really cares about my career. So I think I'll not ever ask him for a letter of recommendation ever again.

So because he really cares about your career you will not ever ask him for a letter ever again? That makes absolutely no sense.

[neuroingrid]

So because he really cares about your career you will not ever ask him for a letter ever again? That makes absolutely no sense.

Thank you so much for your kind advice. Actually I am not from the US, however, I do possess a graduate level degree from one of the top universities in Florida, so I do know how the American grad school system works. :)Thenn, I returned back to my home country and got accepted to this school.

Here, things work slightly differently. You must have all that you think you need to be successful in an interview well in advance. Let's say that there is a guest faculty visiting this institution and is looking to hire prospective candidates, if I have all that is needed with me when he meets us, I could stand a chance.

Well, what I meant was that if he cares about my career, he wants me to work with him alone and no one else. He is not willing to let me go. Yes I am very concerned abuot my career, but at least until the end of my course, I need to be able to stick with him.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I just don't think you should make assumptions about his intentions. Just because he really likes you doesn't mean he wouldn't be willing to help you apply to other programs.

[neuroingrid]

I just don't think you should make assumptions about his intentions. Just because he really likes you doesn't mean he wouldn't be willing to help you apply to other programs.

Well, actually he once asked me, what would happen if you go, then what would I do? So at that point of time I had convinced him that I would not! So I guess I'll just keep my word

Thanks a lot. I was just wondering if people had similar experiences and what were the possible reasons ...

[neuroingrid]

Well, I had another discussion with him, and he told me that until we could get animals, I could author more papers with him and he would teach me all the techniques in the department.

Since today is Friday, I thought I'd dress casually, I ended up wearing a sleeveless shirt because it was raining. He told me to never wear sleeveless again and to cover up. Now for some reason, this rule seems to apply only to me, he doesn't care about what others wear!

[ktel]

This conversation is so strange... it seems you don't understand what we're saying at all. Let me break it down for you:

1. It's likely he's refusing writing you a letter not because he doesn't want to write you a letter, but because you asked him in a very strange way

2. If you want to apply to other programs you will need a letter from him

3. Be honest with him about your intentions

Understand now?