Going for PhD/homophobia in grad school

[gssc29]

Hi all,

I'm a year into my Master's program and soon have to decide whether I want to go for my PhD. While going for my PhD was my original goal, I feel conflicted now about whether I want to continue on.

One of my main hesitations for continuing on has to relate to my being gay. The field I'm in isn't known for being gay friendly and I came into grad school not sure what to expect. I've never heard the topic come up at work, save for one occasion when someone referred to gay people as fruits at a departmental meeting. About half the room laughed at it, and a lot of the higher ups in my department were in the room at the time. Although it was just one occasion and I likely overreacted to it, it kind of freaked me out. I didn't say anything and figured it was smarter not to.

Since then, I haven't heard anything more mentioned, though I've tended to avoid non-essential departmental meetings. Given the nature of my research, I've mostly worked on my own so I've had limited contact with others in my department. Even though that's been almost a year ago and it's hard to extrapolate from one data point, I keep coming back to that one instance. The comment itself didn't get to me; rather, I'm worried about how others in my department might react and how that could affect my future career.

While I'm out to friends, I'm not sure how long I can remain in the closet at work. Going for a PhD would mean a commitment of four to five years, and I'd inevitably want to get in a relationship. If I did, there'd be little chance I could fully separate my personal and professional life. If I were to come out, I know there would be some people in my department - mostly other grad students - that would be supportive. I don't know how my advisor would react, but I can make an informed guess that she'd be supportive too. But there are others that I work with that may react badly.

Now, there's a great opportunity for me to go for my PhD. The work is pretty much what I'd dream doing. However, as part of the work I'd be doing, we'd be collaborating with another institution that is anti-gay. While my work with them would be fairly limited and I'm at an institution with all the adequate anti-discrimination protections, that has me a bit uneasy. I feel really torn. On one hand, I'm really passionate about my work and want to continue with it. But on the other hand, I want to have a personal life and not have to hide it. Anyone have any advice or personal experiences who can relate?

Thanks,

David

[Chasely]

I say this all as a straight man.

I'm surprised by the manner which the people in your department conducted themselves. I'd be surprised if your university doesn't have an anti-discrimination policy. I bet if higher-ups learned what happened at that particular meeting some people would be called into some of their boss' offices.

That being said, I think if you're going to spend a considerable amount at a particular workplace, you need to be comfortable there. It is clear that you are not. It's also important to be able to seek help and interact with your peers, which you are not doing because of the environment of your department.

From the little you said, you seem to want to get a PhD. I think you should, but I think you should start looking at other programs that would allow you to do your research. You shouldn't have to remain "in the closet" at work if you don't want to.

Other people with more experience on this board may disagree, but I would cautiously suggest talking with your advisor about it. I would check and see if there is some form of confidentiality agreement between advisor/advisee first. I might start with saying that I wanted to continue on to a PhD, but am looking for suggestions of other institutions to do research at. If your advisor asks why, then you have the chance to tell her if you want.

Again, this is all advice from a straight guy, so I obviously can't relate to some of the things you're worrying about. I just wish you didn't have to worry about them at all.

[Dal PhDer]

I am a straight female in a city/university/department that I would say is pretty open and non-judgemental about most things...so my experience/opinion might not be what you need.

I do think in some respects, you can't separate your professional and private life. At this point in your graduate school, you're going to meet people that you will connect with by sharing your personal details with...because you want to and will make friends. However, I truly believe that your relationship status and sexual preference doesn't need to come into play with your degree, committee and/or supervisor.

When I started my PhD I went through a horrible break of a 6 year relationship with my partner. Even though it was a huge life changing and dark point in my personal life, I never discussed it with my supervisor/committee, or brought that into my school work. So for me, I would say that there is no reason to bring it up or into your relationship with your advisor/committee. I don't see the point or the necessity...them know who you date or whom you perfer to date has no relevance to your degree.

With that said, I don't think you should hide it from them, as it is who you are .... I just have never (to this point) been in a situation where I had to discuss that detail with my supervisor.....but maybe it's because I am now single and have been since I started my PhD!

[ANDS!]

Why haven't you said the major - is it unique to your campus?

[lewin]

Once you have your PhD, come to Canada! We have lots of incentives to attract educated workers and gay rights are enshrined in law and in social norms. Shitty places that oppress other people can reap what they sow and become intellectual backwaters. Or stay and try and change the culture: Knowing somebody who is gay is the biggest thing that can change attitudes. (See "the contact hypothesis".)

And I have to say, I'm astounded that somebody could make a comment like that in an official meeting and people would laugh. I bet (hope) many people were privately horrified.

[robot_hamster]

Could more people know you are gay than you realize? I too find it strange that someone would say something like that at a department meeting and other people would laugh.

[ANDS!]

I love the subtle (not so subtle?) dig at the US here.

And I agree with the previous poster - they most likely know. But again depending on where you are studying and what, this maybe shouldn't come as a surprise.

[gssc29]

Thanks for all the responses.

I'm surprised by the manner which the people in your department conducted themselves. I'd be surprised if your university doesn't have an anti-discrimination policy. I bet if higher-ups learned what happened at that particular meeting some people would be called into some of their boss' offices.

There is an anti-discrimination policy at the university. At the time, I considered saying something, but I think the people I was supposed to go to had been in the room at the time. Plus, I wasn't in a good place that semester personally and I really didn't want to risk any potential negative consequences.

From the little you said, you seem to want to get a PhD. I think you should, but I think you should start looking at other programs that would allow you to do your research. You shouldn't have to remain "in the closet" at work if you don't want to.

Other people with more experience on this board may disagree, but I would cautiously suggest talking with your advisor about it. I would check and see if there is some form of confidentiality agreement between advisor/advisee first. I might start with saying that I wanted to continue on to a PhD, but am looking for suggestions of other institutions to do research at. If your advisor asks why, then you have the chance to tell her if you want.

That's good advice - for various reasons (family, finances, etc.) and the nature of my research, I couldn't see myself in another program. I think I may tactfully come out to my advisor though and let her know it's on my mind when considering continuing on for my PhD. I haven't really sat down with her and discussed things long term. As I've been meaning to have a conversation in that vein anyway, I think that'd be a good step.

With that said, I don't think you should hide it from them, as it is who you are .... I just have never (to this point) been in a situation where I had to discuss that detail with my supervisor.....but maybe it's because I am now single and have been since I started my PhD!

I agree, I don't want to hide, while I certainly don't want to unnecessarily bring in my private life and mix it with my professional life. If I were to get into a relationship, I'd inevitably run into people I knew from work and it'd become known. Plus, people are pretty open with their personal lives in my department so it'd be strange if I never mentioned mine. So keeping the two separate without purposely hiding it would be difficult, I'm afraid.

Another consideration is that if I go for my PhD, there's an extremely small dating pool in my town . . . so maybe I won't even have to worry about that!

Why haven't you said the major - is it unique to your campus?

It isn't, although I'd rather not get too specific. You could consider it under the umbrella of applied sciences.

Could more people know you are gay than you realize? I too find it strange that someone would say something like that at a department meeting and other people would laugh.

That might be the case, but I fly pretty well beneath most people's gaydar. Most people I've come out to said they were surprised and had no idea.

Also, I was quite a new student then and most people wouldn't have even known my name or have recognized me. Given the context of what was said, it wasn't meant in a friendly joking way. I should clarify the comment was in no way consciously directed against me, but was rather a general comment referring to gay people in general as 'fruits'.

I don't know. I keep worrying that I'm overthinking this, since it was only just one comment and nothing as direct as that has come up since. I keep looking for anything else I could judge the general atmosphere off of, and then I feel like I'm being paranoid.

I think a good step would be to bring this up with my advisor soon. I think it'd be best to calmly and tactfully come out to her and gather more information before I commit myself to a PhD program.

[SeriousSillyPutty]

This is in no way a justification for what they did, but:

Though connected, there is often a difference between homophobia and ignorance/rudeness. One of the kindest, most conscientious, accepting people I know will refer to herself as "retarded" when she does something stupid. She is in no way hostile to those with special needs (quite the opposite, in fact) but this term is still part of her vocabulary because it was considered an innocent term "back in the day", even though it now offends most people.

Someone also did a good blog responding to hipster notions of being "ironically racist". ("I'm not racist so I can say things that sound racist as a social commentary on how ridiculous racism is.") It's stupid, but not intentionally hateful.

I don't know the context, of course, but perhaps the comment at the meeting was made and supported by people who have no ill feelings toward the LGBT community, but who simply watched too many episodes of "Will and Grace" for their own good. Even those who laughed may be completely supportive of you. (And most supportive people would understand a desire for discretion when dealing with the other school.)

Of course, ignorance (without hostility) can still create a pretty aweful environment, and you deserve to be in a good environment, so nobody would begrudge you leaving.

Good luck!

[ANDS!]

At this point since there is no context or a full quote of what was said, and there being little information about the OP and their cohort itself - I'm agreeing with the above: An innocuous statement that is more a reflection of rudeness/tone-deafness than anything else. Could it be more than that; possibly - but not really able to tell beyond "A member of my department called gays 'fruits'."

[TheFez]

"The field I'm in isn't known for being gay friendly and I came into grad school not sure what to expect."

I must be so naive... seems like most any field today is receptive to gay people. I mean it's not like you are studying t be a plumber, right?

I say - go for it. Screw 'em if they don 't like it.

[ANDS!]

"The field I'm in isn't known for being gay friendly and I came into grad school not sure what to expect."

I must be so naive... seems like most any field today is receptive to gay people. I mean it's not like you are studying t be a plumber, right?

Co-signed. I can think of one conservative teacher I came across at my lowly state school - and he'd have been less likely to use such language than his progressive counterparts. Maybe it's sports or some such; that is the only discipline I can imagine have a culture of masculinity hanging over it. If the OP is this protective of even naming the department, I can only imagine how his cohort perceives them giving their already admitted habit of being a lone wolf.

[lewin]

I'm a little incredulous at anyone who is minimizing the OP's claims because he won't name is specific department. What difference does it make? Engineering, physics, computer science, mathematics -- these are all male-dominated and also (relative to other fields) more sexist; they're probably more homophobic too. If "every field" is receptive to gay people where do all the homophobes come from?!

[TakeruK]

I don't know the context, of course, but perhaps the comment at the meeting was made and supported by people who have no ill feelings toward the LGBT community, but who simply watched too many episodes of "Will and Grace" for their own good. Even those who laughed may be completely supportive of you. (And most supportive people would understand a desire for discretion when dealing with the other school.)

I know you qualified this by saying that what happened was still not right, and I agree that there's a difference between ignorance/rudeness and flat out discrimination. But I think the rule of "impact not intent" is important. When it comes to harassment, one should consider the impact of one's words, not the intent. Particularly, ignorance/rudeness can enable prejudiced people to think their worldview is correct/supported by others.

For example, in a group of coworkers, perhaps someone who doesn't consider themself homophobic or hateful towards gays might make a "gays are fruits" joke. But they don't really mean it in a hateful way, so it's okay? Everyone else in the group thinks the same thing, and laughs along, it's just a joke! But maybe one or more people in the group actually do feel hateful towards gays, and to them it's not just a joke. That person sees the conversation as affirmation from their coworkers that their worldview is correct and accepted by society.

So, like you said, just because the comment might not have intended to be harmful, it can still cause harmful effects. I just wanted to illustrate the point a bit further

[robot_hamster]

I agree with what the others are saying. It could have been a case of ignorance/rudeness and, yes, it can still be harmful even if the person saying it did not mean any harm. I also wonder how many people were actually offended and didn't want to say anything because it would rock the boat. Perhaps someone there had a gay family member or friend, but still were afraid because (like TakeruK said) there is this perceived notion that "gays are fruits" is the what everyone else thinks. You never know.

Anyway, I am with the others who say what department you are in is irrelevant. There is sexism in many fields, especially those that are traditionally male-dominated. It isn't a far stretch to think some of those sexist people are also homophobic.

How you want to handle this is completely up to you. None of us can tell you what to do. You could take an active approach or you could simply avoid the situation altogether. Each carries its own set of risks. Is there someone you can talk to about it. You said you have told some people. Are they supportive? Perhaps they could help you out by showing their disapproval when someone says an inappropriate comment.

Edited August 9, 2012 by robot_hamster

[ANDS!]

I'm a little incredulous at anyone who is minimizing the OP's claims because he won't name is specific department. What difference does it make? Engineering, physics, computer science, mathematics -- these are all male-dominated and also (relative to other fields) more sexist

I'm sorry but that is a load of bullsh*t. Not your demographics - one need only stumble into a computer lab random times during the day to confirm this - but the incredibly faulty connection that "Hey it's full of all dudes. . .definitely has the undercurrent of sexism in it!" - relative or otherwise. This is still academia; unless the OP is going to school in Iran or something gender/racial biases are pretty non-existent.

If "every field" is receptive to gay people where do all the homophobes come from?!

Jesus. And you're in Social Psychology too. God help us -

As for "insisting" on the department - I was simply curious if the OP would bite. They didn't. Coupled with the previous info, I'm simply leaning more towards "less insidious than a normal person would think - " in terms of the tenor of the conversation the OP heard.

[fuzzylogician]

I'm sorry but that is a load of bullsh*t. Not your demographics - one need only stumble into a computer lab random times during the day to confirm this - but the incredibly faulty connection that "Hey it's full of all dudes. . .definitely has the undercurrent of sexism in it!" - relative or otherwise. This is still academia; unless the OP is going to school in Iran or something gender/racial biases are pretty non-existent.

You really believe that there is no gender discrimination and no racial discrimination of any kind in academia? Well. You either live in an overly protective environment and are very lucky, or you live in the same world as the rest of us and are very oblivious.

[ANDS!]

Pretty non-existent is not non-existent. Surely, to a linguistics PhD, I didn't really need to lay that out.

[lewin]

I'm sorry but that is a load of bullsh*t. Not your demographics - one need only stumble into a computer lab random times during the day to confirm this - but the incredibly faulty connection that "Hey it's full of all dudes. . .definitely has the undercurrent of sexism in it!" - relative or otherwise. This is still academia; unless the OP is going to school in Iran or something gender/racial biases are pretty non-existent....

Jesus. And you're in Social Psychology too. God help us -

Haha, are you serious? I happen to research discrimination, so I have the home field advantage here. I could provide a hundred research citations that sexism still occurs in academia but two easy examples are: At my university last year they hired about 70 new faculty and at least 65 were men. Second, recently the Canadian government initiated a new academic research chair program. Nineteen research grants, every single one went to men. I didn't say that engineering etc were sexist because they're male dominated. I said they're male dominated and more sexist, on average. Though a causal connection seems likely.

And my "dig" at (some parts of) the U.S. was not supposed to be subtle. Not at progressive Americans, but at the ones attending chick fil a appreciation day, certainly.

Edited August 9, 2012 by lewin00

[ANDS!]

Haha, are you serious?

Are you?

And yea you're right. The large crowds eating a chicken sandwich last week are definitely a portend of ill-intellectual-tidings for the US.

And a majority of folks I've seen claiming there is some controversy regarding the CERC assignments are those setting fires so they can find some smoke.

Edited August 9, 2012 by ANDS!

[lewin]

And yea you're right. The large crowds eating a chicken sandwich last week are definitely a portend of ill-intellectual-tidings for the US.

And a majority of folks I've seen claiming there is some controversy regarding the CERC assignments are those setting fires so they can find some smoke.

I will spell it out: The chick fil a supporters are bigots. Lots of smart people are gay and don't want to live where their neighbours are actively trying to take away their rights. Those people will leave and move to tolerant places. And there are other, non-gay smart people who won't want to live surrounded by bigots either, so they'll stay away too.

And a competition that produces 19 awards to men and none to women is plainly sexist (see "disparate impact"). Even the minister in charge admitted things had gone wrong somewhere.

[fuzzylogician]

Pretty non-existent is not non-existent.

And your disgusting comment helps make sure it stays not non-existent.

Surely, to a linguistics PhD, I didn't really need to lay that out.

Surely you know that it’s acceptable webiquette to address the content of a post, not its writer. Surely, though, if you choose to violate that convention, you’d at least learn what it is that a linguistics PhD does so as not to embarrass yourself with your ignorance.

[ANDS!]

I will spell it out: The chick fil a supporters are bigots

If you say so. This thread has already derailed enough, no way am I taking this flame bait; least of all your ludicrous chicken sandwich ipso facto argument. . .

And a competition that produces 19 awards to men and none to women is plainly sexist

Thank goodness there are people who can actually do math in this world who dismiss such outlandish comments without actually doing some research first (population the competition is drawing from, historical proportion of men to women in the field of interest - yanno, the pesky stuff).

If it turns out that this is a significant difference, then yes you can dance a jig at the gender bias (something tells me you haven't done that).

And your disgusting comment here helps make sure it stays not non-existent.

Two people find that comment disgusting (and not simply churlish or immature): you (gee I wonder why) and the tightwad it was directed to. Good game.

Surely you know that it’s acceptable webiquette to address the content of a post, not its writer.

Sorry, I was merely addressing personal snark with personal snark. Feel free to continue thread combing for posts to Rep-Bomb. It's a hoot.

[fuzzylogician]

Alright. I'm going to check out of this thread, I've made my point. The only one who seems not to get it is you, and feeding trolls is not worth my time. But:

Feel free to continue thread combing for posts to Rep-Bomb. It's a hoot.

First, if I were trying to do that, I wouldn't have to go outside this thread.

Second, please. Get over yourself. Do you really think I have nothing better to do? You give yourself too much credit.

[ANDS!]

That's always the refrain isn't it: can't make your point be accepted as fact, just label the person you disagree with a troll and feign ignorance on how the conversation took a nasty tone. Well done. Round and round she goes.

I'd say "Physician, heal thyself. . ." but that's just too obvious I think -