Social exclusion in grad school?

[newpsyche]

Hey, all!

Has anyone experienced social exclusion (either on the giving or receiving end) in grad school? I've been trying too hard to be everyone's friend, and can see now that it hasn't done a bit of good. At the same time, these will be my "coworkers" for years, and collaboration is important. What is a good balance, particularly with cohort members? I feel ostracized for being a happy, bubbly person, overly kind person, and don't know what to do about it. How have your social lives been within the program?

[phonology_rocks]

Terrible!!! I agree 100% about social exclusion because its excatly what i am experiencing. I agree about collaboration, and in my case, I am in a long distance relationship, so between the two issues having friends is really important to me. Also, as an undergrad I was a varisity athletes, so I have never had to work to make friends (and I don't mean in any way to sound arrogant) but your team as a NCAA athlete are in a sense your friends from the start. I have to roommates that I really like in small programs where they have made friends easily with their classmates.

My issue is all my classmates are forgien (okay all but me and two others) One whom has an outstanding background in the field and keeps to herself anyways and the other whose super obssessed with her boyfriend shes living with (which i can understand but if that was me I would still wanna befriend my classmates)....anyways they are are only from three differnent nations, speak there own languages to each other, and I feel so left out. I have tried to create some social time, but it hasn't worked well.

People have told me that i need to schedule my time better so I am not working 100% of the time, and that may be true (well it is true) but its a lot easier to buckle down and focus when you have other things to do, or something to look forward too. Collaboration is important and I just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. I would be happy to hear any suggestions on what to do about this....!

Also, I don't want to socialize like an undergraduate, I just want friends in my program for reasons described above. I am also a happy overly bubbly person, and I figured friends would make missing my boyfriend easier.

[emmm]

I have not experienced exclusion in my program, but my cohort is not especially social and the students in my program are spread out in many different labs in different locations, so socializing is not easy. However, people are friendly enough when we do see each other. I am a local student, so I rely on my old friends for moral support most of the time, but when I have had program-based issues, other (more advanced) students have been very willing to meet and chat or to communicate over email. I think some programs/cohorts just have their own "personality" and if you are not getting what you need from within the program, you may need to look outside. I do realize that as a grad student, your free time is somewhat limited, but that is part of the problem. No one really has enough time, and I think it hampers forming close relationships.

[crazygirl2012]

I've been very lucky in this regard. My colleagues have been very welcoming to the first years, and I really like my cohort. There is definitely some drama in the department, but a lot of it is actually among faculty rather than students. Although I consider myself to be an introvert, I am talkative and outgoing and I love my social life here. I think I was just lucky to stumble upon a good group of people with whom I fit in well.

[ktel]

While my department is friendly, I don't exactly expect to have close friends at school. I'm a year in and am just slowly making some headway in hanging out with people outside of school. I have focused most of my friend-making on other people, mainly my rugby team mates and my boyfriend's friends and friends of friends.

[elem3nt]

Yes. Everyone in lab/my department already has friends/SOs/family. Social circles are already well established and I've had no luck breaking into any. I'm looking outside with groups/clubs run by students and having a little better luck. You're not alone.

[R Deckard]

I'm a social excluder. Even as a first year.

[SeriousSillyPutty]

After I moved to this city for work, I'd say it took me a good two years to feel really "established" socially -- to have people I could ask favors without feeling guilty, to have a couple close friends and a bigger ring of people I knew and could hang out with, etc. Hopefully in grad school there is a higher percentage of people newish to the area and looking to form friendships, so it won't take as long, but don't be discouraged if it does take awhile -- it WILL come. I second (third?) the idea of getting to know people outside the department, and doing activities even if you don't feel you have time for them. (After all, you can't do go school work if you're not healthy, and that starts with being emotionally healthy.)

And I don't like the phrase "overly bubbly". I mean, compared to ice tea, Sprite is "overly" bubbly, but it's perfectly bubbly for what it is. While I guess one should be respectful of, say, office mates who prefer quiet to chit-chat while they're working, you shouldn't have to curb your personality just to fit in.

Good luck!

[Dal PhDer]

I have been lucky and have made some extremely close friends through my graduate school experience. I want to comment more on the fact that you really shouldn't care if people think you're 'overly bubbly'...they're silly!!!! Who WOULDN'T want a bubbly friend??? Who wouldn't want to be around someone who is positive and kind?

I started to gain more friends (true, sincere friends), when I realized that life is too hard to be someone who I'm not. I'm silly, loud, raunchy, ditzy, overly happy but yet an extreme worrywart and nervous nelly. My friends know this, and embrace me for the good and the bad! I use to hate and dwell on people not liking me, and now my attitude is "honey, if you don't like all this, you is crazy!!!" So my advice is do social events, join clubs, and sports, and just spend every moment and everyday being yourself! People will gravitate to you!

I think it can sometimes be hard to make strong friends through this experience, because depending on where people are at in their degree, and the amount of work they have to do...they can be busy. Sometimes i need a push from my friends to get out and do something other than work! So sometimes you just have to push people!

[rising_star]

Yes. Everyone in lab/my department already has friends/SOs/family. Social circles are already well established and I've had no luck breaking into any. I'm looking outside with groups/clubs run by students and having a little better luck. You're not alone.

This was *exactly* my experience when I started my PhD program. I found it really difficult to make friends as I was one of the few people starting the program that was both single and new to the area. There were three of us, out of 15, fitting that description. And the other two had connected over the summer and were roommates. So, yea, I definitely know the feeling of having to break in. But, over time, I became friends with a couple of people that had SOs/family and had already been in the area. It took time but now I have two close friends that fit that description.

Hopefully in grad school there is a higher percentage of people newish to the area and looking to form friendships, so it won't take as long, but don't be discouraged if it does take awhile -- it WILL come. I second (third?) the idea of getting to know people outside the department, and doing activities even if you don't feel you have time for them. (After all, you can't do go school work if you're not healthy, and that starts with being emotionally healthy.)

100% agree with this. I'm a 5th year student now and hang out with a mix of people from my department and that I've met from other activities. Quite a few of the folks I hang out with are people I have met from capoeira or I met through people in my department and am now friends with. It's great to get to talk to non-grad students. I now regret not getting more involved in non-university activities earlier in my graduate career.

I started to gain more friends (true, sincere friends), when I realized that life is too hard to be someone who I'm not. I'm silly, loud, raunchy, ditzy, overly happy but yet an extreme worrywart and nervous nelly. My friends know this, and embrace me for the good and the bad! I use to hate and dwell on people not liking me, and now my attitude is "honey, if you don't like all this, you is crazy!!!" So my advice is do social events, join clubs, and sports, and just spend every moment and everyday being yourself! People will gravitate to you!

This is fantastic advice that I wholeheartedly agree with. I think it's extremely important not to sacrifice yourself and who you are just to have friends.

[i.am.me]

I am Master's student and only starting to feel it this semester because all of my cohort buddies are graduated and gone...while I sitll have a semester left. A lot of the people left are doc students, and (understandbly) they tend to need or want to discuss with one another where they are in their comps, proposals, or defense. I only feel excluded by one member of that group who seems to talk over me all the time, but I can ignore that because everyone else is nice enough. Frankly, I have trouble in social situations which I consider to be casual but just end up with people intellectually discussing their interests and studies in a politcally correct atmosphere. Sometimes, I just want to talk about how huge Jessica Simpson got during her pregnancy, the latest antics of Honey Boo Boo Child, and "Who wore it better"-- in a decidely un-pc fashion. Or funny pictures of half-naked babies, cats and dogs, and my crazy Asian parents. I find that I am often forced to censor myself because the intellectuals in my college give me a funny look. Oh well.

Before, my study group consisted of all of my former posse. Now, I have created my own study group with other graduate students in different programs and stages this semester as a result lol. I also hang out more with people that are not studying but have the same interests that I have met outside of school through mutual friends. I am really busy these days, but feel that I am much more pleased with myself because I feel super productive.

Edited September 24, 2012 by iampheng

[lewin]

I'm intuiting that people have different definitions of "exclusion" and I'm curious about that. Grad school is less like undergrad and more like a workplace. Some people might want to take that relationship social but others don't and I don't think that's exclusionary. You can be professional and collaborative without being exclusionary. I'm probably jumping to conclusions but when I read "happy and bubbly" I picture the people who drop by my office and want to visit for an hour while I'm trying to work. Same with wanting to talk about cats instead of studies. I have much love for cats too, but maybe people talk about studies while they're at work because they want to be productive. I try to save that stuff for outside the office.

Here's a somewhat hyperbolic claim: Once you're a grown up there's no such thing as social exclusion (see Geek Social Fallacies 1 and 5). There are people I don't like and I don't invite them to parties. There are people who do weird research or who might require too much handholding and we don't collaborate. That is not exclusionary. Grad school doesn't come with an obligation to be friends with anyone or work with anyone. (That said, my dearest friends in the world, some of whom are also collaborators, are grad school friends.)

Limited exception to above: It's rude to flaunt it (e.g., throw party, talk about it in front of the uninvited person) but that's outside the bounds of normal behaviour; here I assume that grown ups act politely.

Edited September 24, 2012 by lewin00

[ktel]

Excellent post lewin00, couldn't agree more. My department is very professional and friendly. Nobody here is my close friend, but that is not because they are exclusionary. It's simply because they have chosen separate social groups, and so have I.

[Pitangus]

Grad school is less like undergrad and more like a workplace. Some people might want to take that relationship social but others don't and I don't think that's exclusionary. You can be professional and collaborative without being exclusionary.

This is my view as well. I'm a reserved person, and I'm really only comfortable with socializing occasionally on a one-to-one level (meeting one or two people for a snack or to discuss a class, that sort of thing). It's not just a case of shyness; I really don't need or want much interaction.

So I'm not really out there attending big social events or trying to be friends with everyone. But I don't think I'm being exclusionary by not wanting to socialize at that level. Nor do I think I would be a bad research collaborator. I don't believe that socializing and collaborating are the same thing, and that you can't do one without the other. Like lewin00 and ktel suggest, it's possible for people to be professional and friendly without being friends.

[Usmivka]

I don't believe that socializing and collaborating are the same thing, and that you can't do one without the other.

Agreed. Also, my particular cadre is somewhat cliquish, but I don't think they are intentionally exclusionary. They are just remarkably similar in age and background, so they get on well. I don't fit the same mold, so I don't expect or particularly want to be as fully a part of their clique as each of them are!

[newpsyche]

You all are so wonderful. Thank you. A few clarifications that come to mind: "overly happy and bubbly" does not mean chatting--I work hard. I just treat everyone with positivity and enthusiasm, which turns some people off.

I've always been under the impression that friendship IS collaboration, and you're right: it's not. I was going into grad school hoping/thinking everyone could be my best friend. That was a little blind of me in the first place, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one. I'm beginning to branch out into other groups (grad students in other programs and other departments, plus groups that have absolutely nothing to do with grad school). They offer perspective. In those times when all seems disastrous, they remind us that our lives really aren't that hard. (:

[phonology_rocks]

You all are so wonderful. Thank you. A few clarifications that come to mind: "overly happy and bubbly" does not mean chatting--I work hard. I just treat everyone with positivity and enthusiasm, which turns some people off.

I've always been under the impression that friendship IS collaboration, and you're right: it's not. I was going into grad school hoping/thinking everyone could be my best friend. That was a little blind of me in the first place, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one. I'm beginning to branch out into other groups (grad students in other programs and other departments, plus groups that have absolutely nothing to do with grad school). They offer perspective. In those times when all seems disastrous, they remind us that our lives really aren't that hard. (:

I agree completly, in the last few days, I've realized the diversity in my program is a really positive thing! I've also realized that grad school is more like a job, and I expected my classmates to replace my undergraduate teammates and the reality is they won't, and it was wrong to expect that. Also, I spent far to much time expecting these 'friends' I was going to make, to fill the loneley feeling I have being away from my boyfriend, and that was silly, He will be here in a year, I am lucky there is an end to all of this, and by the time hes here, I should be good at this grad school thing. I agree with the abovce post though, its so nice to know I am not alone....SO thank you all for the advice!

[ConfusedMind]

Social Exclusion . Emotional Outbursts. The first semester of grad school isnt going to well

[wildviolet]

There is one person I'm purposefully excluding on what I think are reasonable grounds. First, some background: she and I have the exact same courses and teaching schedule. We use the same babysitter (at my suggestion and at my house since she had no after school arrangements), so she drives home with me (she doesn't have a car). Thus, we see each other at least two to three times a week. During these times, she almost always complains about... everything!

I understand that she's going through a tough time... a divorce (her husband sounds like a total jerk and is not even giving her any child support) and no car (although she lives close enough to campus to walk).

She complains about the coursework, reading assignments, writing, teaching, research, her husband, her apartment... literally everything! And it's annoying. So I don't want to invite her to anything unless it's out of my hands (like the department social coming up at a professor's house). Am I justified? I understand the need to share your feelings and concerns occasionally, but time spent with her is just annoying!

I don't want to say anything to her about this (yet) because it's not as if I'm her close friend, and I have enough stuff to do without worrying about her stuff as well. For example, in one class, we are responsible for leading the class for one week. Her week is coming up, and she wants me to read the papers ahead of time and help her figure out what to do in class. Ummm... isn't that your job? And aren't you supposed to be collaborating with the professor on this, not me? Then she complains about how she doesn't understand it at all and has to keep reading it over and over. Big sigh.

Sorry for the rant. I just have to let it out!

Edited September 27, 2012 by wildviolet

[lewin]

If I were in your shoes I would already be going to great lengths to ensure we left at different times so she wouldn't be in my car. But eventually it will probably resort to, "I'm sorry, I can't offer you a ride home anymore. I really need that time alone in the car to disengage from work and get ready for home life." In response to situation number two: "I'm sorry, I have so much on my plate with other coursework and research that I don't have time to read the paper ahead of time." The daycare situation sounds like a quagmire but I'd try and get myself out of that too.

Undoubtedly she will try and guilt you into helping her anyway. Be assertive and enforce those boundaries!

TLDR: Stop hanging out with crappy people.

[wildviolet]

lewin00--yeah, I'm already thinking about that.

The car is a difficult situation, especially as winter sets in (I mean, it's just kind of mean to ask her to walk in the cold). I can tune her out for the ten minutes it takes to walk to the car and drive home.

As for the other situation... yes, I have stood my ground. So today I told her that I haven't done the readings and don't plan to until early next week. I asked her if she had talked to the professor and her advisor. I tell her I don't know as much as others (which is certainly true), and refer her to others.

I don't know. I try to be a good person and help others when I can.

[R Deckard]

When people ask you to do favors like that, just say "no" immediately. Then it's really clear.

"Hey, can you read these papers early and help me?"

"No."

Then they'll understand that you don't want to and aren't willing to do it. It works really well.

[Sparky]

lewin00--yeah, I'm already thinking about that.

The car is a difficult situation, especially as winter sets in (I mean, it's just kind of mean to ask her to walk in the cold).

All the more reason to "change your schedule" *before* the cold gets here? Or, if the daycare situation renders that impossible, you should at *least* have the right to ask her to change the subject (ergo not complain).

I don't know. I try to be a good person and help others when I can.

Enabling dependent and socially-destructive behavior is *not* helping. Especially for a PhD student! And it *is* socially destructive. You can't stand to be around her, and you're obviously a hugely caring and loving person! How would someone with less patience and more selfishness react? (Does she have any other friends? This would explain why all she wants to do is complain--everyone needs to vent, and you may be her only outlet).

[wildviolet]

Enabling dependent and socially-destructive behavior is *not* helping. Especially for a PhD student! And it *is* socially destructive. You can't stand to be around her, and you're obviously a hugely caring and loving person! How would someone with less patience and more selfishness react? (Does she have any other friends? This would explain why all she wants to do is complain--everyone needs to vent, and you may be her only outlet).

I think that's part of the problem. She's an international student and talks to her family on the phone all the time, but she still complains to me. I agree about the enabling behavior. At the same time, I understand that she doesn't have many resources here. So far, I haven't had to go out of my way to help her--it has just worked out that we have similar schedules and her daughter attends the same school my kids do. If nothing else, I am cognizant of her daughter's welfare (at least my kids have each other to play with; being an only child can be tough).

[Lyra Belacqua]

I'm probably jumping to conclusions but when I read "happy and bubbly" I picture the people who drop by my office and want to visit for an hour while I'm trying to work.

…

There are people I don't like and I don't invite them to parties. There are people who do weird research or who might require too much handholding and we don't collaborate. That is not exclusionary. Grad school doesn't come with an obligation to be friends with anyone or work with anyone.

When I hear "overly bubbly", I think of the people I know who I find really annoying but who everyone else loves because they embody what Susan Cain called the "Extrovert Ideal". General societal attitudes say that I would be a better person if I were more like them, but I don't want to be, and even if I did want to, I certainly couldn't manage it. (And that goes double for introverted *women*: the stereotype is that "women are good with people", so I feel like I'm in danger of being seen as less of a woman, or going about being a woman the wrong way, or somehow worthy of suspicion.)

I agree that nobody should feel forced to socialise with people they don't like, or shamed for not doing so; sometimes you just don't get along with someone or enjoy their company, and it's nobody's fault. But accidentally finding out about a party you're not invited to is just as hard as it was back in middle school; this happened to me just last night (I happened to run into some other students from my department in the elevator on the way down, and it was awkward).

Despite what it might sound like from this post, I don't actively try to shut people out; I just like my social interactions low-key and…I'd say "intimate", but that has other connotations. But hopefully that conveys what I mean. And I am usually more comfortable around other introverted people.

Edited September 29, 2012 by Lyra Belacqua