Completely lost before I've even started.

[Odd]

Hello

I’m going to try to keep this as brief as possible.

I’ve never really felt irresistibly motivated to do much of anything, but something that has held more than a passing interest for me is psychology.

I don’t believe that I could handle dealing with anyone really mentally ill. I’ve had some experience with mental illness in the family and have only ever felt helpless. I would hope that getting a degree would solve the layman’s dilemma of what do you tell the person who believes everyone is reporting their every move to the doctor, who is going to have them killed, and they can smell the poison gas coming through the ducts now. However, I still find the idea of working with the true mental illness unsettling.

In a perfect world I would picture myself working in marriage and couples counseling with special interest in intimacy issues and sexual trauma, but I admit that I don’t have enough exposure to all the potential options to know anything for sure at this time.

I completed a 2 year degree in an unrelated field a few years ago and my intention is to return to school early next year. My dilemma is concerns where my long term focus should lie. I am terribly confused and conflicted by what I have read about psychology in general and what level of education is a good fit for what I want to do.

I feel like I should be focused on getting a PhD in counseling (I like the idea of having the capacity to open my own practice), but a Master’s in counseling could be enough to get me into something interesting. The more I read about people who have experience in the education and employability aspects the more it seems that it is a hopeless cause. I’ve been left feeling like a Master’s is a debt bomb that won’t get me any closer to a satisfying job and that a PhD is probably impossible. Not to mention that it will leave me old, poor, and still unemployable. With all the bad word of mouth I feel like I should run away as fast as possible and insert myself unhappily into the nearest avaialble Mcjob.

I don’t really know anyone who has been successful in much of anything that involves more than a high school diploma so I have to reach out to people who have actually accomplished something in the direction I want to go and in this case that means you.

There are many more things that spring to mind to add to this but I think including them is only going to run the risk of rambling further and further off track.

Thank you for your time.

[PsychGirl1]

1- get experience doing research to see if you're interested in that (get a FT or PT job as a research asst, research coordinator, volunteer at local universities or hospitals, etc.)

2- take a few night classes at community college or things like that- abnormal psych, intro to counseling, etc.- get a feel of the different areas of psychology

3- if you're still unsure of research interests but want to go back to school, i suggest getting a master's first. it was great for me to finalize my research interests and walk into phd apps feeling prepared, motivated, and put together.

along the way, try talking to as many people in as many areas of psychology as possible, with as many different jobs. get a feel of what they do day-to-day and what their career path looked like.

in my opinion: don't waste 5+ years on your life (not to mention thousands of dollars applying and traveling for interviews) on something you're not sure about (aka phd program)

[Odd]

I think the biggest thing that dosen't sit well with me in going into a Master's program is that something that I read suggested that none of the work in a masters will apply to the time it takes to get a PhD so it feels like walking half way down the path and going home only to have to walk all that way again when I could have gone all the way there in the first place.

I've probably ventured too far into overthinking what's going on. I just want a good future to come out of my efforts and it feels like there aren't many to go around anymore.

Anyway thank you for your input. I'll look into your recomendations. The instructor for the one relivant college class I have taken was always talking about working in the women's shelter, and in group therapy at the prison and all of this stuff that sounded pretty interesting, She has since left teaching at the school I went to and I have no idea how to contact her to talk about it further.

thanks

[PsychGirl1]

It depends on the PhD program. If the master's program is research-focused with a thesis, where you go likely gives you at least some credit. Some go as far as to waive your master's thesis (after you provide a copy and they approve it) and multiple courses, some don't give you any credit at all. So it really depends.

I understand your concern about timing but if you're not sure that PhD is your goal, why look at those two years as wasted and instead look at them as your chance to learn more and make a decision? How much more time would you waste if you entered a PhD program and discovered it wasn't for you? Plus you have a degree in an unrelated field- you might be playing catch-up throughout the master's program, which will allow you to enter a PhD program significantly more prepared than you would have otherwise (and maybe get into a better program than you would have otherwise).

[LuckyCat]

I agree with the above poster to get more exposure to your options in the field. Knowing what your ultimate career goal is will be helpful in planning what your degree objective should be. Keep in mind, too, that a masters can be preferable to a PhD for certain things. For example, having a MFT degree relative to a counseling PhD may be viewed more positively by health insurance companies because there is a lower bill rate for MFT practitioners.

If you have access to a university library, I recommend checking out these two resources:

1. Getting What You Came For: The Smart Student's Guide to Earning an M.A. or a PhD by Robert Peters

2. Career Paths in Psychology: Where Your Degree Can Take You by Robert Sternberg

Best of luck!

LC

[Odd]

There are so many voices out there that say "you're not going to be able to get a job all you're going to get is in debt" and for my last degree that was absoluitely the truth. I resented that fact so much it's taken me years to even want to go back.

It may be grossly niaeve but I generally do well in an academic setting so I figured that even if the PhD program isn't what I wanted it to be I could still soldier on and finish and mold the outcome into something I would be happy with later. But I would not argue the idea that that is a knee jerk response to an overwhelming din of both uneducated and uninformed, and overeducated and underwhelmed voices talking about how impossibly unfair the job world is.

LuckyCat both of those books look like they will be easy to get ahold of and sound, from their descriptions, like they should be very helpful in my decision making process. Thanks very much.

[lewin]

From your original post it wasn't clear to me whether you have an undergraduate degree in psych; you said "two year degree in an unrelated field". It will be difficult to get into a decent master's program without a degree in psychology, especially without a four-year degree. Taking some undergraduate psychology would help you figure out whether you like it.

"...even if the PhD program isn't what I wanted it to be I could still soldier on and finish..." I suggest caution here. PhD programs are unlike undergraduate or master's work. It's a tough slog if you're not intrinsically motivated.

[Odd]

No I don't have an undegrad in psych. My degree is an AA in accounting. A more optomistic version of myself thought that would be enough to get out of call center work.

I've heard that a BA in psychology isn't very useful on it's own for the areas that I'm interested in so it would be a waste if I weren't willing to get a higher degree, and several things suggest that if I'm not willing to go to the PhD level that I should just choose a different program than psych right from the start because it will all just be an excercies in futility. I'm trying to get my head around how hard I'm going to have to work to get what I want, and to decide if it is at all worth the journey before I get my feet too far down the path.

I don't think I'm saying this very well but it doesn't seem to want to come out any better.

[lewin]

You're right, a typical BA in psych won't provide much (or anything) in the way of counselling training.

"In a perfect world I would picture myself working in marriage and couples counseling with special interest in intimacy issues and sexual trauma."

I worked with people who did exactly that and most had a Masters of Family Therapy or Masters of Social Work. I don't know what the prerequisites for those programs are, probably a BSW or BA. ETA: This was not private practise, it was a large nonprofit social services agency.

Edited October 19, 2012 by lewin00

[_kita]

I would suggest following PsychGirl1's advice. First try to determine what you would LIKE to do. A PhD is a terrible process to begin if your not certain. There are more applicants than ever with fewer slots due to funding. So if you should even get into that prized slot, then decide you'll drop it, that's an even bigger waste to both you and the school.

On the other hand, if you do go the route of an accredited master's program with a thesis, you'll be on the road to a Ph. D (especially if you go to a school you may potentially want your PhD from), you'll get the experience you want, and determine if it's something you do actually have the motivation for. For some people straight to PhD really is the answer, but really only if you have a certain research focus and want to be in academia. Otherwise, I'd always suggest the masters to build credentials.

And another way to look at it, you graduate with your PhD. cool. Where are you getting hired? Most clinics don't LIKE to hire PhD's because of money issues. Start your own place immediately? How wide is your clientele going to be when they find out your graduated without a breadth of "worldly experience"? Especially when you'll be working primarily with adults, who will initially be older than you. Ageism is fun >.<

[memyselfandcoffee]

i agree with other posters in that you probably need some more information/experience in psychology at this stage,for three reasons, 1- it will help you decide if it is right path for you, 2) you might be lost in a phd without some groundwork ( basic psychology stuff and statistics), 3) you will probably need it to get into a decent Phd programme.

I think you also should get some experience working with people, by doing some volunteering, i know in my country you don't get inot good programmes without such experience

I also think it sounds you should get some career advice on what qualifications are best for what you want to do.

as for it all seeming impossible, and hearing everyone saying you'll have debt and no job ect, i wouldnt let that hold you back. I had all those doubts before starting my programme, but now that I'm in i dont care about that anymore because I love what I do. at the end of day a Phd is just job (just very poorly paid one!) the question to ask yourself is this a job you think you would enjoy. well that helped me anyway.

also if you unsure about working people with mental illness, maybe you like research in psychology and to go into academia? that said I'm sure everyone has doubts about thier capability to help the truely distressed, personally i think thats healthy, that is also why it is a good idea to get some experience.

good luck!

[Odd]

It seems like there are a lot more job listings for phds at least locally but the more I look at them they seem to mean either joining the military or working on the local air force base. So in a way it looks like the decks are stacked in favor of more schooling but with further investigation that's a little misleading. I don't even want to think about if I would be willing to sign up for 3 years to have a job.

I would be 38-40 by the time this little scenario was done playing out so I don't really think ageism is going to be a huge concern. There's less of a gap between a ripe old respectable age from there than from 27 like someone who stayed in school the whole way through. But hey everyone is either too young or too old so it's good to consider as a factor.

I'm mostly trying to find a way to make the best decision now because I don't think I'm going to get many more chances to change my mind. You have all been very helpful in that. I'm still not sure about what I'm going to do quite yet but I feel like I've been placed in the right direction to find a road map.

Thank you all very much for your opinions, guidance, and support.

[memyselfandcoffee]

Hi, me again, i thought I add some comments... I liked someone's idea about doing community college courses to dip your toe in , you could some paid or unpaid (probably with your current qualifications) work in helping people end of things as well. think help lines for children, people with mental illness ect

that doesn't seem like a waste of year for you, to me, you could maybe fit a few night courses and evening or saturday volunteering and a paid job,(part time?)if your really ambitious

courses you should consider are some basic intro to psych, intro to counselling, and if your going to do a phd you really need statistics and research methods ( don't worry if you don't love these at first, few people do, but they are vital to a research career in psychology)

anyway, good luck with your decision

[lewin]

By the way, I think this was implicit in some of the previous comments but to make it clear: With your current qualifications I think you have zero chance of admission into any PhD program of any quality. So you definitely need to think about something preparatory first, whether that's RA experience and/or undergraduate work. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't want you to waste money applying or end up somewhere sketchy that just wants your tuition money.

[PsychGirl1]

lewin00 +1

I was not a psych major, nor did I hold a psych-related FT job. I did volunteer in multiple psych labs (probably 3, some for years), took probably 10 different psych classes (including some at night while I worked full-time, and some in college and two of those were psych lab classes), and read psych-related research, books, and magazines extensively over the past few years. I also had a very strong analytical and research background, and went to a very strong ugrad institution. I decided to go the master's route and I feel that I would have been completely lost had I gone straight into a PhD program. My adviser still occasionally laments about my lack of background knowledge in the field, and the PhD students in my lab are ridiculously amazing. I sometimes feel that they were born with a psych textbook in their hand. I'm applying to PhD programs this year, and despite the amazing experiences I've had over the past 2 years and the amount I've learned, not getting in anywhere is a very real possibility. Taking some time to build up experience and make a decision is probably best for you personally as well as your ability to get into a quality program.

Edited October 29, 2012 by PsychGirl1

[Odd]

I am not even trying to go straight into a graduate program. That is not and never was the point of this conversation. What I am doing is thinking as broadly and completely through my future actions as possible. It's part of my process in making the best informed decision and creating a plan of action. I'm sorry if I'm not able to translate that clearly from brain to screen or if you feel like I shouldn't be brining this to you at this time because graduate school is still a few years off for me. I understand that there are miles still to go (starting with completing my BA) I just want to make sure I'm walking in the right direction.

[_kita]

Odd, I'm very glad you're looking at all the potential options. I think most of us are just saying the techniques we know to get you there with all the credentials you would need to be a successful candidate.

[lewin]

My apologies, I read "i plan to return to school next year.... I feel like I should be focused on a PhD in counselling..." and interpreted that to mean possibly attempting a PhD next year. (Glossed over the "long term" part.) Definitely, I wasn't suggesting that you shouldn't be bringing up the issue now; it's great you're thinking ahead.

[hm5400a]

@psychkita you said in a previous post that "you'll be on the road to a Ph. D (especially if you go to a school you may potentially want your PhD from)". For people who need more experience/courses before applying to a PhD program and want to take the masters route, will doing your masters at the school you want to get your PhD actually increase your chances of admission? I am applying to masters programs, and I see that @Odd is contemplating a masters. Could you expand on what you said before? If I don't get near perfect grades in their masters program would that ruin my chances of getting into their PhD program? Thank you!

[_kita]

Okay, for a lot of PhD programs, those with a masters degree hold more credence than those that do not. Basically, you've already proven what the GRE is a gauge for (if you can keep up with the critical thinking course load). The degree basically stands in place against any and all lower scores. It also demonstrates determination and passion - the other key component schools want.

An easy example of such is that there are many programs that waive the GRE entirely if you already possess a masters- just like how some programs will waive your GRE if you've worked in the field for 'X' number of years..

The only downside is that a lot of credits will not typically transfer over- unless, of course, it's at the same school. Let me know if that's clearer, or if you want any more information.

[watson]

@psychkita you said in a previous post that "you'll be on the road to a Ph. D (especially if you go to a school you may potentially want your PhD from)". For people who need more experience/courses before applying to a PhD program and want to take the masters route, will doing your masters at the school you want to get your PhD actually increase your chances of admission? I am applying to masters programs, and I see that @Odd is contemplating a masters. Could you expand on what you said before? If I don't get near perfect grades in their masters program would that ruin my chances of getting into their PhD program? Thank you!

Really depends on which area of psych, which tier of school. At NU for example, we give no extra weight to people who have previously completed a masters, and if you are admitted you will need to redo it here. This is very common at research-focused programs in the top tier. This is probably because most of these programs do not offer terminal masters programs anyway.

[_kita]

@WATSON: Well, yes. The type of school, the program, the ranking, it all factors in. Each program really is it's own entity. For the most part in both the academically and applied programs I've looked into the masters with help you get INTO the program (with very few exceptions), BUT the masters means squat once you're there. You'll need to redo the masters. The perk is, now you're in your PhD when the credentials weren't there before!

[PsychGirl1]

Most programs have information on their website about whether or not they will give credit for your previous thesis or previous coursework. If you know some programs that you might be interested in, you can check.

[hm5400a]

Thanks for answering my question, I found out two schools I'm applying to will take almost all of the masters credits! The only concern that I have is if a professor dislikes me for whatever reason from MA program and that person is on the admissions committee..... Do you know if they read applications with the persons name or is it common to give each application a number to prevent biased decisions?

[_kita]

I think, in large, your name's on most of the applications. In my last grouping (five schools) only one didn't.

Edited November 1, 2012 by psychkita