Harvard Kennedy School Admissions

[Revolution]

Thanks for the link. Good stuff. I'm still waiting to hear back from b-schools (will know by early april).

 

 

An HBS/HKS analysis by an admissions consultant (who herself went to HBS/HKS - Revolution, this may interest you).

 

http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/waitlist-quandry-hks-hbs-joint-program-t9808.html

[Revolution]

Your last point is definitely a concern. I mean at the MPA2 program at HKS, roughly half the students are doing a joint degree with an MBA. Not sure how that affects the experience of those who are doing just the MPA2, especially if they want to get a job in the private sector (finance/consulting), but I imagine that the impact is not negligible.

 

 

Yeah I agree regarding the slant of the anecdotal interviews. I was mainly focused on how cash strapped HKS is, and how that affects its ability to provide a quality experience. An institution's ability to get donations and funds is a great predictor of its ability to provide for its students. It is disappointing that HKS struggles in this area and that they take so many dual/joint degree students in an attempt to bolster the HKS brand.

[Revolution]

I'm in a similar boat. I mean I have no idea whether I will get into HKS MPA2, but if i get in there but not the mba programs and i don't get great funding, i will most likely turn it down and stick with the startup and other projects i'm working on. It's utterly insane that HKS can charge so much and give so little aid when the economic value for its graduates is simply not there.

 

I talked to friends who are doing joint mba at hbs/wharton/sloan and hks, and they ALL told me to NOT do HKS alone.

 

 

After reading the comparatively more negative than positive things about HKS, I am pretty sure that I won't attend unless I get substantial funding.

 

It simply doesn't seem to be worth the time and money invested. Public policy school is probably more of a scam than what I thought from before.

[Revolution]

I agree that HKS is more difficult to get into than it was in 2004. I disagree with your other conclusions, however.

 

First, acceptance rate alone is not a good measure of a school's selectivity. You have to look at the quality of the applicant pool. Generally speaking, HKS's selectivity is NOT on par with top 10 mba or law schools (MPA-ID could be an exception due to its quantitative requirements).

 

Second, I agree that the market in general is oversaturated with law and mba students. However, top MBA programs provide immense value to its graduates; there's been plenty of empirical studies done on this. Top policy programs such as HKS and WWS do not provide that sort of value.

 

Third, the MBA is about the name brand, networking, and access to recruiting and visits with top firms from all industries. That in itself is immensely valuable, one that is worth paying the steep tuition for. I know tons of top b-school alums, and not a single one regrets attending.

 

Fourth, you mentioned that some big companies were started by college graduates. Ok, that's great. But you're using rare people such as gates, zuckerberg, etc., to try to extrapolate on the value of an MBA. That's deeply flawed reasoning on your part. Moreover, lot of the big companies are run by MBAs. Heck, the second most powerful person at Facebook, COO Sheryl Sandberg, is a HBS alum. She brought business and operational acumen to Facebook that Zuckerberg simply did not have.

 

My point is that companies HIGHLY covet MBAs from top programs. If they did not, they wouldn't visit these schools every year to recruit students for internships and full-time jobs. An MBA is a stamp of approval, a signal to these employers that you passed the gauntlet of admissions and are able to contribute to their firms. This does not mean of course that an MBA alone will make you successful; you still have to work your butt off and prove that you have the right stuff. But don't fool yourself; credentials are VERY important in today's highly competitive workforce. It is here that HKS falls remarkably short. Aside from low paying jobs in the public sector, I'm not quite sure what value HKS gives to its graduates.

 

 

 

HKS also isn't as easy to get into as it was in 2004, and public policy schools have seemingly increased in value and relevance in a post-Bush, post-financial crisis, Obama era. It's as hard to get into the MPP program at HKS as many T14 law schools according to their 2010 acceptance rate. Not to mention, some of the same criticisms in this article can be launched at business schools in terms of the qualitative, intrinsic value of an MBA... it's purely a brand name you're paying for. The most valuable companies in the world were started by college dropouts, and the market is oversaturated with MBAs and JDs. The career advice the guy quipped about--going to law school--is rather laughable today unless you are at a place like HLS.

 

The alumni of HKS are pretty damn extraordinary, so I'm skeptical that the school imparts no value to its graduates. Some of you are stuck in a pre-2008 mindset and are forming false impressions, I think. You may also be forgetting that not having a graduate degree is a barrier to entry for many public sector jobs, so despite the egregious cost, it puts you in a much better place than just having a BA.

[FRR]

@Revolution - from your post history. I'm confused, you've applied to HKS but seem intent to disparage it any chance you get. If the program is not suited to you, it seems like you're simply a prestige whore and looking for the Harvard name. There are plenty of terrific policy program around that do not charge such higf tuition if that is indeed what you are seeking. I applied to Fletcher and Fletcher only. Great school, can do clasess at Harvard and network, can do an MBA and tuition is signficantly less then Harvard. Seems like a program like that would be ideal (although I'm aware that Fletcher is an IR school the example still applies).

[Revolution]

No, I'm not disparaging it per se. I'm just questioning how much value there is to HKS if i did HKS alone, without an MBA. That's all. And i'm not the only person who feels this way; plenty of joint mba/hks people said similar things to me. Now, most of them loved the HKS classes and the people there; they thought the hks students were more interesting than the MBAs. But they questioned whether HKS was worth the tuition, as well as its weak career services.

 

 

@Revolution - from your post history. I'm confused, you've applied to HKS but seem intent to disparage it any chance you get. If the program is not suited to you, it seems like you're simply a prestige whore and looking for the Harvard name. There are plenty of terrific policy program around that do not charge such higf tuition if that is indeed what you are seeking. I applied to Fletcher and Fletcher only. Great school, can do clasess at Harvard and network, can do an MBA and tuition is signficantly less then Harvard. Seems like a program like that would be ideal (although I'm aware that Fletcher is an IR school the example still applies).

[soaps]

This is an older post here on the forum:

 

Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:47 PM

JAubrey,

I’m glad to hear that you know anecdotes of people doingwell. At no point did I say people in the HKS MPP are not bright or that the educationisn’t fantastic. But it is just reckless to ignore the stats that HKS puts outitself. These are not my numbers. Look at the settled rate (http://harvardcitize...ring-recession/)and the employment report (http://www.hks.harva...entOverview.pdf).They are terrible. I don’t know of any other degree program at HKS, Harvard, orany other university that requires you to incur so much debt (because of thelack of Financial Aid and the high costs of tuition) and then gives you solittle earning potential. The return on investment is by far the worst I’veseen. MPAs and MPA-IDs incur the same debt but have higher earning potentials.That’s a fact; which means employers generally consider MPPs less valuable totheir organizations. Denying that is nonsense. If you get an MPP from HKS you should probably plan ongetting another master’s degree as well. Shouldn’t potential students be awarethat they are getting the master degree with the least earning potential fromany of the 4 major professional schools at Harvard? And know that they are gettingsometimes even more debt than other programs (because of the lack of financialaid at HKS)? MPPs have low earning potential, high debt, and carry a sign thatsays “less than MPA”. Who cares if MPAs look down on you or not? I never saidthat. What I said is that you accumulate the same debt and get paid less. Anyone can get thehint of what it means to get paid less. No one needs to go to Harvard to serve.

And in regards to brand power, HKS already doesnt carry the same "wow" factor as the other professional schools at Harvard, such as HBS, HLS, and HMS (ask anyone who went to the other professional schools), and on top of that, the MPP has the least "wow" factor from all the HKS programs. People should have the opportunity to know that and weigh that in their balances when choosing what school to go to and how much debt is it really worth.

 

What exactly is shocking about those employment figures? The first link goes to a home security website; the second provides numbers in public/private/NGO sectors. What is terrible about it? It shows substantial employment prospects in every sector. MPAs also (generally) have more experience than MPP applicants, so it shouldn't be surprising their earning potential is higher.

[soaps]

I agree that HKS is more difficult to get into than it was in 2004. I disagree with your other conclusions, however.

 

First, acceptance rate alone is not a good measure of a school's selectivity. You have to look at the quality of the applicant pool. Generally speaking, HKS's selectivity is NOT on par with top 10 mba or law schools (MPA-ID could be an exception due to its quantitative requirements).

 

The experience threshold at HKS, even for an MPP, is higher than any law school with the exception of those that emphasize soft factors like Stanford. I think it is far more likely that HKS students have more diverse, interesting life experiences than the average HLS student. I wouldn't say the same for business programs.

 

 

Second, I agree that the market in general is oversaturated with law and mba students. However, top MBA programs provide immense value to its graduates; there's been plenty of empirical studies done on this. Top policy programs such as HKS and WWS do not provide that sort of value.

 

I never said the top MBA programs don't provide immense value to their graduates, but your MBA slant shows that you're evaluating HKS using an HBS framework. It's as though you don't really consider public service a legitimate career path, and I would agree that public policy schools aren't necessary if all it took were a BA to succeed in the public sector. That's really what you don't understand: a graduate degree is absolutely necessary, and an MBA or JD won't get you more money than an MPP to be a management generalist at any and all levels of federal government. Where you went to school also does matter if you have to bid for posts or want section 102 appointments. Even among the most meritocratic agencies like the State Dept., the few FSOs who only have BAs have to go back mid-career to get one and have usually advanced less rapidly. For the federal government and international NGOs and IGOs, a public policy degree (and the reputation of the program) matters more.

 

Third, the MBA is about the name brand, networking, and access to recruiting and visits with top firms from all industries. That in itself is immensely valuable, one that is worth paying the steep tuition for. I know tons of top b-school alums, and not a single one regrets attending.

 

Brand and networking aren't unique to an MBA. Career paths in public service for those who really want to "advance" to the highest levels of government are horizontal, not vertical, which requires a network to get you from one office to the next. Bidding in the State Dept. similarly relies on your network and the school you went to. I know brand and networking might be comparatively more important in business, but it's as though you've never stepped foot in Washington.

 

Fourth, you mentioned that some big companies were started by college graduates. Ok, that's great. But you're using rare people such as gates, zuckerberg, etc., to try to extrapolate on the value of an MBA. That's deeply flawed reasoning on your part. Moreover, lot of the big companies are run by MBAs. Heck, the second most powerful person at Facebook, COO Sheryl Sandberg, is a HBS alum. She brought business and operational acumen to Facebook that Zuckerberg simply did not have.

 

My point was that the curriculum has no intrinsic value; it's the brand name and networking that matter. That's deeply flawed reading on your part. 

 

My point is that companies HIGHLY covet MBAs from top programs. If they did not, they wouldn't visit these schools every year to recruit students for internships and full-time jobs. An MBA is a stamp of approval, a signal to these employers that you passed the gauntlet of admissions and are able to contribute to their firms. This does not mean of course that an MBA alone will make you successful; you still have to work your butt off and prove that you have the right stuff. But don't fool yourself; credentials are VERY important in today's highly competitive workforce. It is here that HKS falls remarkably short. Aside from low paying jobs in the public sector, I'm not quite sure what value HKS gives to its graduates.

 

I never said they don't covet MBAs from top programs. If you apply to a strategy consulting firm with an MPP, you're doing it wrong. If you are looking for a career in business, why are you in this forum? Those "low paying jobs in the public sector" require graduate degrees, and not everyone finds them as unappealing as you do. The debt is a huge consideration, but many public policy programs will put you in debt and yet most management positions in government, or doing "inherently political work," will require a graduate degree. That's the world we live in. You've consistently proven you have no interest in (and little knowledge of) the public sector, and all you do is evaluate public policy programs with an MBA framework. It's not helpful; it's highly misleading. HKS has a good--no, great--public sector track record. You consider that "track" in and of itself a defect, so I'd suggest taking the MBA angst elsewhere.

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by soapwater

[Dinosaur7]

Kind of off topic...but does anyone have a sense whether it is feasible to work part-time (with a flexible schedule) while at HKS? I know lots of the DC policy schools encourage people to work part-time/have internships/etc. Any sense of whether somewhere between 5-20 hours a week would be reasonable for HKS, and if yes, how much time seems reasonable based on the course load?

[ridofme]

Revolution - your posts are getting tiresome. You are on a subforum entited "government affairs", and seem shocked/outraged/dismayed that a degree in public policy is not going to set you up to make a 6-figure salary at a private consulting firm a few months after graduation. Dramtically increased earning potential in the private sector was not, is not, and never will be the point of a public policy degree. I'm not sure where you got that idea, or why you need to make dozens of posts debunking an illusion that very few people share. Nobody here thinks we're going to make 100k at Boston Consulting Group after graduating from HKS. Perhaps some people interested in public finance or economic development might consider the advantages of an MBA vs. an MPP/MAIR, but most of us are looking for careers in government, NGOs, think tanks, etc.

 

It is certainly worthwhile to contemplate whether the astronomical HKS price tag is worth it considering that the Harvard brand name may not confer significant career advantages in this field, the way it might in business or law. But I, for one, would appreciate if these threads were no longer hijacked by puerile debates re: which Harvard programs are considered more elite, or whether HKS students can compete socially with the ubermensches at HBS.

[Tom-MPP]

Just called the admissions office. Decisions have been made as of today.

 

Now decisions are being updated in the system and will be communicated by email (not Sparks) to us by Friday.

 

They said they notify per program, not all at once (MPP, MPA2, etc). So not sure when who will get notified first or last..

[alf10087]

So, our fate is already sealed, we just don't know about it.

 

Pretty much like life, some might say.

Edited March 11, 2013 by alf10087

[AvariciousBanker]

Hi everyone.  Wanted to offer a few thoughts:

 

1.) HKS is a great program, and public policy grad students are pretty well respected on every college campus.

 

2.) At Princeton, the closest MBA analogue is the MFin program.  Profiles look similar to HBS- we have NASA JPL alumns, McKinsey alumns, yoga instructors, and the like.  On top of that, everyone comes in with a strong math background.  Guess what?  Our MPAs are cooler than we are (one of them is a former Navy SEAL), and they probably have a lot more fun than we do. They certainly know how to throw really good parties.

 

To suggest that there is some sort of hierarchy among graduate students at top schools is a bit silly.  Especially when the Math and Physics PhDs have a good 10-15 IQ points on everyone.

 

3.) If you are interested in money, don't get a public policy degree.  Get an MBA or an MFin or a Finance PhD. 

 

4.) Better to be the brilliant guy from Berkeley or CMU than the brilliant guy from Harvard, IMO.  The brilliant guy from Berkeley is a lot more approachable, and the Harvard kids know he's smarter than them.

Edited March 11, 2013 by AvariciousBanker

[AvariciousBanker]

So, our fate is already sealed, we just don't know about it.

 

Pretty much like life, some might say.

Expectation theory says that, with respect to applicants, no decision has been made yet.

 

Why am I thinking of Schrodinger's cat right now? 

Edited March 11, 2013 by AvariciousBanker

[alf10087]

Expectation theory says that, with respect to applicants, no decision has been made yet.

 

Why am I thinking of Schrodinger's cat right now? 

 

It depends on the epistemological focus you may want to exercise. If you want to see it from a positivistic stance, decisions have materially been made, but knowledge hasn't been made available to us. We must use the proper methods to help us reach it. In this case, killing time in the most efficient way.

 

If you like phenomenology (or platonic world-of-ideas method) better, yes, no decision has been made yet, as the subject (us) has not identified the object (the decision) and therefore its spirit hasn't been shaped by the constructor of knowledge.

Edited March 11, 2013 by alf10087

[goodtogo]

All I know is that knowing decisions may be coming this week means that I won't get a whole lot done at my actual job, as I obsessively check my email.  Best of luck to all in the days to come.

[Ourtwocents1]

It depends on the epistemological focus you may want to exercise. If you want to see it from a positivistic stance, decisions have materially been made, but knowledge hasn't been made available to us. We must use the proper methods to help us reach it. In this case, killing time in the most efficient way.

 

If you like phenomenology (or platonic world-of-ideas method) better, yes, no decision has been made yet, as the subject (us) has not identified the object (the decision) and therefore its spirit hasn't been shaped by the constructor of knowledge.

 

alf10087 is correct; there is more than one way to approach this puzzle.

 

Moreover, from the moment Tom-MPP informed us that decisions have already been made, the phenomenology approach is no longer inconsistent with decisions having been made from the perspective of those who were around to listen to the proverbial tree falling in the forest. In other words, we now know decisions have been made, thus rendering moot the question of whether we can know that decisions have been reached. We know it (or believe it, from hearsay). It's somewhat analogous to the concept of Being-toward-death (Heidegger); we know something is coming, and just because we are not yet there in time does not mean we do not have to order ourselves accordingly. 

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ourtwocents1

[alf10087]

 It's somewhat analogous to the concept of Being-toward-death (Heidegger); we know something is coming, and just because we are not yet there in time does not mean we do not have to order ourselves accordingly. 

 

My original thought was similar to that when Tom-MPP mentioned that decisions have already been made.

 

I actually mentioned the epistemological approaches to be more scientific, but what floats in my mind is the french perspective from Camus and his absurdism: decisions have already been made and will be notified to us wether we like it or not, and therefore nothing we do from this moment up to then, will have any intrinsic meaning (just like life towards an inevitable death). Or conversely, should we embrace life and make every moment worth it before the peremptory deadline?

 

Whatever... congratulations to those who got it, even if you don't know it yet   

[soaps]

^ It's all a language game. One philosophy degree later and I'm still satisfied with that conclusion.

 

Unrelatedly, what do you guys think you'll do if you don't get in? I'll probably take a long walk and end up at the dive-iest bar I can find.

[Ourtwocents1]

I actually mentioned the epistemological approaches to be more scientific, but what floats in my mind is the french perspective from Camus and his absurdism: decisions have already been made and will be notified to us wether we like it or not, and therefore nothing we do from this moment up to then, will have any intrinsic meaning (just like life towards an inevitable death). Or conversely, should we embrace life and make every moment worth it before the peremptory deadline?

 

Haha, I like that. Here's the optimist's take on the absurd: let's make the next 24, or 48, or 72 hours count because they might be the last "calm" before the storm -- a strech of sadness (not getting in) or the flurry of activity that admissions would bring.

[alf10087]

^ It's all a language game. One philosophy degree later and I'm still satisfied with that conclusion.

 

Unrelatedly, what do you guys think you'll do if you don't get in? I'll probably take a long walk and end up at the dive-iest bar I can find.

 

I'll just try to get myself together, not let it hurt my self-esteem, and celebrate the fact that I can confirm my enrollment to Goldman, thus ending a cycle and vortex of uncertainty I've had since a few years ago.

[Revolution]

Good luck everyone! This week is huge for everyone on here. Whatever happens, don't let admission results dictate your self-worth or level of happiness.

[soaps]

A PhD applicant posted in the results database. I'm guessing tomorrow's the day for MPP/MPA2. Terrified.

[alf10087]

A PhD applicant posted in the results database. I'm guessing tomorrow's the day for MPP/MPA2. Terrified.

 

They've been notifying for PhD since a while back http://www.thegradcafe.com/survey/index.php?q=harvard+public+policy&t=a&o=&pp=250

[EnricoPallazo]

What was the day-by-day breakdown last year? Did the mc/mpa decisions come down day #2?