Opinions on Fat Studies

[Fishbucket]

Poor people do tend to buy things in bulk, what with all of the excess storage space and large refrigerators they have in their cramped apartments and houses. Not to mention the excess cash they have to front the cost of bulk foods (cheaper over time does not make something affordable in the moment).

 

And when it comes to dining out, as even poor people occasionally do, I suppose if McDonald's would sell organic veggie burgers for the same price as their $0.99 cheeseburgers, the personal responsibility argument would carry more weight. 

 

If we really want to know an insider's view of poverty and what kind of food the poor like to eat, we could always ask the grad students at UT-Austin.

 

ooo burn

Edited February 28, 2013 by Fishbucket

[asleepawake]

Ever thought about going vegan? Dairy is evil!

 

Yes, especially for ethical reasons. I was vegan for almost a year right after high school, but it didn't last. I do think often about trying again, but I haven't taken the plunge because CHEESE and because I'm a terrible cook. I should really do it...

[thatjewishgirl]

Josh, I respectfully/completely disagree with your last post. I am an adjunct--if you know how little adjuncts are paid, you'll understand that I make virtually no money, and live in a tiny, cramped apartment. I don't buy anything in bulk and I don't have a lot of space, but I am a committed vegan. It is possible!

[squire_western]

I am really surprised to see these really simplistic ideas coming from someone who presumedly has the intellectual curiously that we have in the humanities. I asked a legitimate question. Fishbucket said that we should leave "fat studies" to those in medicine, so I asked if s/he feels that we should also leave disability studies to those looking for cures for illnesses. I didn't say that being fat = being blind.

 

Do you tell addicts that they do not have real diseases, and those with depression that they merely need to look on the bright side? Or is it only weight that you assume is the direct result of some personality flaw?

 

Actually, as a humanities person, I find this degree of thinking offensive because it engages in the intellectually masturbatory act of assigning a cultural background to people who have made individual choices and it does so under the guise of the pluralistic humanism that has become known as "cultural studies." No, I don't tell addicts they do not have a disease, nor would I tell depression victims to "merely ... look on the bright side." But in fact, I would venture to say that neither of these groups constitute a culture. There is nothing wrong with critically dealing with obesity or anything else; but I do take issue with the idea that "fat studies" belongs in the realm of cultural studies because, whatever you purport to have claimed, that DOES assign a certain equivalency that I believe in inappropriate. As a minority, I find it troubling that my experience and the experience of other cultural minority groups would be read in the same way as the life experience of overweight individuals. Because that is not a culture, nor is it a disability. It is a problem and it is (sometimes) attendant to class ideology, but that doesn't mean that overweight individuals constitute a cultural group. To claim that it does is, in my opinion, to assign a false and dangerous equivalency with minorities.

 

Okay, continue mocking my simplicity.

[squire_western]

How about next we do PMS studies, and then Bad Haircut Studies, Unflattering Outfit Studies, Shrill Voice Studies... Basically reduce every trait that people find naturally repellant into an "unfairly marginalized minority group" and build an academic sub-discipline around it. I think that will move the humanities in the right direction, and certainly real minority groups won't be insulted at all. 

 

I totally agree with this; I also doubt that anyone suggesting the inclusion of fat studies is in a "real minority group."

[thatjewishgirl]

Yes, especially for ethical reasons. I was vegan for almost a year right after high school, but it didn't last. I do think often about trying again, but I haven't taken the plunge because CHEESE and because I'm a terrible cook. I should really do it...

 

Do it! Take the plunge! I think I saw that you are a fellow animal studies person... I don't think I could be as committed to animal studies if I didn't have my real life animal welfare activities behind me. I guess it enhances my academic interests. Cheese is something you just can't replicate, but if in the early days you think you might break down, there are some tolerable cheese substitutes out there. 

[Fishbucket]

If you read the Fat Studies Reader, they equate their work with the Civil Rights Movement. They are trying to argue for a "Fat Culture." So Pepper's criticism seems more than fair to me.

[asleepawake]

Actually, as a humanities person, I find this degree of thinking offensive because it engages in the intellectually masturbatory act of assigning a cultural background to people who have made individual choices and it does so under the guise of the pluralistic humanism that has become known as "cultural studies." No, I don't tell addicts they do not have a disease, nor would I tell depression victims to "merely ... look on the bright side." But in fact, I would venture to say that neither of these groups constitute a culture. There is nothing wrong with critically dealing with obesity or anything else; but I do take issue with the idea that "fat studies" belongs in the realm of cultural studies because, whatever you purport to have claimed, that DOES assign a certain equivalency that I believe in inappropriate. As a minority, I find it troubling that my experience and the experience of other cultural minority groups would be read in the same way as the life experience of overweight individuals. Because that is not a culture, nor is it a disability. It is a problem and it is (sometimes) attendant to class ideology, but that doesn't mean that overweight individuals constitute a cultural group. To claim that it does is, in my opinion, to assign a false and dangerous equivalency with minorities.

 

Okay, continue mocking my simplicity.

 

Well, first, I don't believe in free will, so I'm not sure we can debate the responsibility angle productively. We have too fundamental a disagreement on what that even means.

I'm not suggesting that we read fatness in the same way that we do race, though there are topics that engage both (Hottentot Venus, for example). Reading race, gender, sexuality, and, yes, body size/shape/etc doesn't mean equating those things, and every single thing that has been added to that list has met with detractors. Plenty of people get "offended" at animal studies, for example, because some of us want to talk about the oppression of nonhuman animals, and some people read that concern as not legitimate. I don't think we need to have a debate about who is the most oppressed; that isn't what I meant to do.  

[Fishbucket]

I'm curious what you mean by "I don't believe in free will"?

[thatjewishgirl]

I have met people in the world who do not believe in the validity of animal activism, but never academics who are offended by animal studies.

[asleepawake]

Do it! Take the plunge! I think I saw that you are a fellow animal studies person... I don't think I could be as committed to animal studies if I didn't have my real life animal welfare activities behind me. I guess it enhances my academic interests. Cheese is something you just can't replicate, but if in the early days you think you might break down, there are some tolerable cheese substitutes out there. 

 

Yes, I definitely know that my consumption of dairy and eggs isn't consistent with my ethical principles (neither is my use of non-vegan hair products, etc). Maybe I'll try something like a 6-day-a-week-vegan-thing or a only-eat-dairy-when-eatting-out-thing to ease myself into it. I've tried some of the cheese substitutes, but it's been a while. At the time I thought they had a bad aftertaste. Any particular brand you suggest?

[squire_western]

Well, first, I don't believe in free will, so I'm not sure we can debate the responsibility angle productively. We have too fundamental a disagreement on what that even means.

I'm not suggesting that we read fatness in the same way that we do race, though there are topics that engage both (Hottentot Venus, for example). Reading race, gender, sexuality, and, yes, body size/shape/etc doesn't mean equating those things, and every single thing that has been added to that list has met with detractors. Plenty of people get "offended" at animal studies, for example, because some of us want to talk about the oppression of nonhuman animals, and some people read that concern as not legitimate. I don't think we need to have a debate about who is the most oppressed; that isn't what I meant to do.  

 

Free will? Are we on the Calvinism debate forum? What happened to the intellectually curious humanist? I haven't personally met anyone offended at the idea of animal studies (and I'm betting you haven't either), but I'd love to chat with them. I'm going to have some whiskey and watch TV with my dogs now. Good luck with the free will thing.

[thatjewishgirl]

Making the switch to vegan cosmetics is a bitch, for sure, but there are some decent brands out there. For cheese, Daiya, all the way. It is a godsend! It is shredded, and isn't any more expensive than dairy shredded cheese. There are some sliced cheeses I would suggest as well... I think one brand is simply called "vegan slices," which I know sounds dubious, but is really pretty good. I haven't branched out into blocks of nondairy cheese, but seriously, Daiya! It melts, which is a plus.

 

Oh, I was so excited about nondairy cheese that I forgot to say I think easing yourself into it is a great idea! I don't know anyone who went vegan overnight. I didn't.

Edited February 28, 2013 by thatjewishgirl

[Datatape]

Not much to add to the debate except to say I do admire those of you who can make the vegetarian/vegan plunge.  I tried it back in ninth grade and lasted all of thirty-seven minutes before I was all

 

[bfat]

As a minority, I find it troubling that my experience and the experience of other cultural minority groups would be read in the same way as the life experience of overweight individuals. Because that is not a culture, nor is it a disability. It is a problem and it is (sometimes) attendant to class ideology, but that doesn't mean that overweight individuals constitute a cultural group. To claim that it does is, in my opinion, to assign a false and dangerous equivalency with minorities.

 

Understanding "fat people" as a separate subculture is different than understanding the cultural conditions that lead to obesity, and then understanding the cultural context in which that obesity is then received. The first, like this:

 

If you read the Fat Studies Reader, they equate their work with the Civil Rights Movement. They are trying to argue for a "Fat Culture." So Pepper's criticism seems more than fair to me.

 

seems crazy to me. I can see how this would offend many people and cause a bit of a backlash.

 

But I think interpreting cultural context (causes and responses) surrounding a hugely pervasive issue in contemporary society is completely legitimate.

[asleepawake]

I'm curious what you mean by "I don't believe in free will"?

 

Well, I mean what I said... I believe in hard determinism. I don't believe that the human brain is the only thing in the universe that does not bend to the laws of cause and effect. I am by no means an expert, and I could be convinced of the existence of free will with the right evidence. I used to believe in it quite a bit (it's pretty much the default in our culture).  Here's a decent article.

[asleepawake]

Free will? Are we on the Calvinism debate forum? What happened to the intellectually curious humanist? I haven't personally met anyone offended at the idea of animal studies (and I'm betting you haven't either), but I'd love to chat with them. I'm going to have some whiskey and watch TV with my dogs now. Good luck with the free will thing.

 

I can be an intellectually curious (post)humanist who doesn't accept the notion of free will... I'm certainly no Calvanist, lol.

 

I know of people who think critical animal studies is offensive when it is done with oppression in mind. People who do not believe animals are or can be oppressed may think it's a problem to compare it to "real" human oppression. I didn't mean, like, studying the symbolism of animals, but more activism-based criticism. 

 

Enjoy the company of your pups.

Edited February 28, 2013 by asleepawake

[asleepawake]

Making the switch to vegan cosmetics is a bitch, for sure, but there are some decent brands out there. For cheese, Daiya, all the way. It is a godsend! It is shredded, and isn't any more expensive than dairy shredded cheese. There are some sliced cheeses I would suggest as well... I think one brand is simply called "vegan slices," which I know sounds dubious, but is really pretty good. I haven't branched out into blocks of nondairy cheese, but seriously, Daiya! It melts, which is a plus.

 

Oh, I was so excited about nondairy cheese that I forgot to say I think easing yourself into it is a great idea! I don't know anyone who went vegan overnight. I didn't.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!  I'll look into Daiya next time I am at the store. It's going into my next ziti, so it better do its melting thing.

 

Not much to add to the debate except to say I do admire those of you who can make the vegetarian/vegan plunge.  I tried it back in ninth grade and lasted all of thirty-seven minutes before I was all

 

 

The first 37 minutes are the hardest, though!

[bfat]

Not much to add to the debate except to say I do admire those of you who can make the vegetarian/vegan plunge.  I tried it back in ninth grade and lasted all of thirty-seven minutes before I was all

 

 

lols.

 

I was a vegan until I got pregnant... I'm really really trying to go back to it, but it's still really difficult while breastfeeding (TMI? sorry...) I'm maintaining my vegetarianism well, though. And I'm only buying organic/cage-free when I do buy (occasional) eggs or dairy. Mostly it's the time consumption that cooking balanced & healthy vegan meals requires.

[Two Espressos]

Well, I mean what I said... I believe in hard determinism. I don't believe that the human brain is the only thing in the universe that does not bend to the laws of cause and effect. I am by no means an expert, and I could be convinced of the existence of free will with the right evidence. I used to believe in it quite a bit (it's pretty much the default in our culture).  Here's a decent article.

 

A wild hard determinist appears!

 

You hard determinists are fun.  By fun, I mean I'm causally determined to find your stance humorous.  And I'm causally determined to write this response on here.  And write about writing this response on here.  And write about writing about writing this response here.  And--

[asleepawake]

A wild hard determinist appears!

 

You hard determinists are fun.  By fun, I mean I'm causally determined to find your stance humorous.  And I'm causally determined to write this response on here.  And write about writing this response on here.  And write about writing about writing this response here.  And--

 

LOL, you're so much more fun than I am! Please, prove me wrong. I didn't choose this belief! It chose me!

 

You say you're a science-y guy, so I'd love to hear your reasons for your belief in free will.

Edited February 28, 2013 by asleepawake

[thatjewishgirl]

bfat, that is really admirable. I think even little changes make a world of difference.

[Two Espressos]

LOL, you're so much more fun than I am! Please, prove me wrong. I didn't choose this belief! It chose me!

 

I can't prove you wrong.  Well technically, I have no control over what I end up doing, and you have no control over whether or not you find my evidence convincing.

 

What I really want to know (since I can't not want to know) is how hard determinism can coexist with cultural studies or any kind of social theory/activism (assuming you do cultural studies-esque work).

 

ETA: It's late, and I'm too tired to write a badass defense of free will tonight.  But I will say that hard determinism is 1) epistemologically untenable and 2) unable to account for the reality of abstract phenomena.  Think about the ontology of mathematics and stuff.  Ditto for sentences.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Two Espressos

[Fishbucket]

I don't understand, from a purely phenomenological perspective, what it must be like to experience the world on a daily basis without a belief in free will. I mean, I guess I don't expect that you make decisions any differently -- it's more of a theoretical belief than a practical one, right? Because if you truly felt that all your actions were determined by something other than yourself, would you even bother to get out of bed in the morning?

[dazedandbemused]

Understanding "fat people" as a separate subculture is different than understanding the cultural conditions that lead to obesity, and then understanding the cultural context in which that obesity is then received.

But I think interpreting cultural context (causes and responses) surrounding a hugely pervasive issue in contemporary society is completely legitimate.

Yes, yes, and yes. I agree that equating it with civil rights is straight-up madness. Then again, I have a hard time with any attempts to make equalizing statements between any cultural/civil activisms. As for the contention that minorities would be offended, I can only offer the idea that this kind of thinking always creates a heirarchy of minorities. What's wrong with having a lot of minorities? The minorities aren't all operating within the same contexts so there isn't really a possibility of the "specialness" of minority status diminishing somehow. Not that I think anyone's advocating for specialness, just that measuring the worth of minorities often feels that way.