Languages for ThD/PhD...

[Yetanotherdegree]

So most doctoral programs seem to require 2 modern languages, plus appropriate ancient languages depending on area. I understand that you need one modern language going in, and that they like to see evidence of courses or achievement in the languages. I have also heard (from a faculty member) that it's better to have actual credits than to just learn a language on your own, even if the end result is the same.

How did you prep for the language requirements?

And is there any way to "prove" fluency if it's not on a transcript somewhere?

I have two small issues. I have near-native fluency in French, having graduated from a French immersion high school. I also completed an internship in a francophone country, but I have never taken a university-level course. I speak French better than most, but I'm not sure how I show this in my application. Any ideas?

My other issue is ancient languages. I need them. For my proposed course of study, it seems I need Greek and Latin. I anticipate applying for doctoral programs next fall and the year following. I can either 1) work my way through introductory Greek or Latin between now and September and then ask for permission to take an intermediate level reading course as part of my ThM studies, 2) sign up for introductory Latin parts 1 and 2 this summer at a local college, not the same place as the ThM, or 3) do the introductory courses as part of the ThM.

3) seems like a waste of ThM time (and a potential challenge for my GPA!), 2 is going to cost $2k+ that I didn't budget for (and it's going to mess with a prearranged family vacation), and 1) only allows me to get one language out of the way, although it is probably the best plan.

So what would you do if you wanted some evidence of languages before applying for a doctoral program in historical theology with a focus on late antiquity/early medieval Christianity?

And which should I focus on first, Greek or Latin?

What have you done to prepare for the language component of a PhD/ThD application?

[sacklunch]

Hey there,

You show your ability to work with the language(s) in your writing sample. I think that will be just as good having taken a class. The reality, I think, is that many students only take those "French/German intensive" courses that last one semester/one summer. This is not enough. You either need to keep taking more coursework within the language, or work with it frequently after in order to gain real skill. My point is I imagine you will be fine. I would list on your CV under languages that you attended an immersion school, also. 

 

As for 'wasting time' on the ThM with languages....you seriously have to start now or it will be too late. This late in your academic career it is essential you pick up the necessary ancient languages. I have found taking 'content' courses without the primary languages is, well, not entirely profitable. If you can't access the primary sources then your research will be heavily limited.

 

Your advisor(s) will be the best folks to ask about which language you should start first. But I imagine, just what little I know of your interests, Latin would be more useful? If you are planning on applying for doc programs this fall, again, you need to start soon. I would take the Latin intensive during the summer, then pick up intermediate in the fall (classical), and then begin a year of classical Greek (not koine) in the fall, too. If you do not have your languages in order programs will simply not take your application seriously, I think.

 

Perhaps I'm a bit hard to folks without language work. It has been RAILED into me ad nauseum that one working within any historical period of religion must have a solid foundation in the required languages. 

 

If you want more information about what I have taken/my experiences with Greek/Latin/Hebrew/German courses, I would be glad to offer any help; just PM me.

[AbrasaxEos]

A few suggestions here:

 

1. On French, see if the institution granting your ThM offers something like a French proficiency exam - some places like HDS, etc. will do this.  If you can take the exam and pass it, then you may well be able to have transcript evidence that you passed the exam and would be judged proficient in French.  If this isn't a possibility, you can probably note that your High School was French immersion - if they have some doubt about this, they can always check on it, but my guess would be that they'd take your word on it.  Also, what kind of internship?  If you can also demonstrate that your internship required a substantial bit of French speaking and reading, you should be fine.  Anyhow, at most PhD programs, even if you do show up saying that you are amazing at French and German, they will likely have you do a proficiency exam to be sure (unless you have a ton of transcript evidence that you are more than prepared on this front). 

 

2. The Greek and Latin question is a bit more vexing - I take it that you have neither?  Have you done anything even introductory in either language?  If not, the time period you are interested in will put you into a bit of a bind in that the Greek of Late Antiquity/Byzantium, while not Demosthenes, is more challenging than that of the New Testament.  So, whereas a lot of programs have "NT Greek" courses, they may not have a classical (Attic) component.  So, I think jdm has a good suggestion above, you need to decide what kind of literature you will most need/want to use and start right away on that language. I might even suggest you consider holding off on applying this fall, as even if you do Latin over the summer you'll have no transcript Greek to speak of (and anything you did would be only 1 semester of introduction) - you'll probably end up wasting a couple hundred dollars applying to programs that you likely will be hard-pressed to get into.  Self-taught languages are also a bit suspect, especially Attic Greek - it is a difficult language and you really need someone to guide you through it. 

 

Now, I am normally someone who suggests that people chill a bit on the obsession with languages in that unless you plan to be a philologist (good luck finding a job), the assumption that one can 'access' the textual meaning by knowing the original language is a prime reason as to why the study of Christianity in particular seems to be in a perpetual 45 year distance from anything like modern historiography or hermeneutics.  However, you do need some ability in them.  You probably don't need a ton of languages, but Latin and Greek, at least at the intermediate level will be indispensible for a degree in this period. 

 

I study a similar period, and am in my second year of a PhD.  I do Egypt/Balkans and domestic religion though, so I may not be of great help in Historical Theology (I actually confess that I don't really know what that is - I've heard of it, but I tend towards the anthropoology and sociology departments wherever I have been during my degrees, so I probably missed plenty of conversations with thelogians about this).

[ἠφανισμένος]

Regarding the modern languages, two options in addition to the ones already mentioned: University of Toronto medieval studies offers French and German reading exams which you can have a faculty member at your home university proctor for you. You could also take one of the French exams offered by the French government (Diplôme d'études en langue française). But only reading knowledge is necessary for research, so the DELF would be overkill.

[Grev]

As said above, your university will have a placement or proficiency exam you can take to show your level of French.  I think the standard minimum is the equivalent of completing the 2nd year language series.  If your immersion school was sufficiently intensive, this should be a cake walk for you.  In the US you can take the CLEP exam for about $80 and receive credit for those two years if you need something more official.

 

As for the Greek/Latin question, I'd do option 1.  Which language will depend on your particular area of interest.  I personally feel Latin is a little more useful, but my time period is solidly medieval to early modern (and I'm in RL anyway) so ymmv.  Definitely talk to your POI, and then get started if you can.

[Yetanotherdegree]

Wow, thanks everyone! These answers are incredibly helpful. For the French, the internship I did was an MDiv summer placement in West Africa, in a country where very little English was spoken. I taught confirmation classes, led bible studies, preached and socialized in French for three+ months. I guess I'll just make sure my application spells this out clearly and then take any exams they offer. I'm not going to worry about it too much for now. I also did a couple of courses of German as an undergraduate, and I guess I can state that in my application. Modern languages = fine. I know I need more Greek and Latin. I'm pretty sure I need Latin first and I have Wheelock's Latin text sitting beside me right now. I guess it's time to get started. I may scrounge up the $ for the summer course if I can find it, and I'll aim to take a Latin reading course in September. And I'll ask about the Greek. I might be able to find another summer intensive, which would at least get me some history/credit before September. Thanks, everyone!

[kacei]

Wow, thanks everyone! These answers are incredibly helpful. For the French, the internship I did was an MDiv summer placement in West Africa, in a country where very little English was spoken. I taught confirmation classes, led bible studies, preached and socialized in French for three+ months. I guess I'll just make sure my application spells this out clearly and then take any exams they offer. I'm not going to worry about it too much for now. I also did a couple of courses of German as an undergraduate, and I guess I can state that in my application. Modern languages = fine. I know I need more Greek and Latin. I'm pretty sure I need Latin first and I have Wheelock's Latin text sitting beside me right now. I guess it's time to get started. I may scrounge up the $ for the summer course if I can find it, and I'll aim to take a Latin reading course in September. And I'll ask about the Greek. I might be able to find another summer intensive, which would at least get me some history/credit before September. Thanks, everyone!

I'm in my second Latin course now and took three courses in Hebrew. I thought it was helpful to start Hebrew first, because Latin was less daunting. Reading classical Hebrew and memorizing every single tiny vowel (we used Hebrew with vowels/Biblia Hebraica) was rather difficult. I'd assume Greek is also daunting, I've heard mixed reviews, but I've heard it's somewhat comparable to learning Hebrew.  But whatever you start with, be prepared. Greek is hard. Latin is also hard, everything has declensions. These languages are not like learning french. There are conjugations and genders, like french, and there are many cognates to french, but there are also declensions. So you will have to memorize a 5 forms of 5 forms for each direct object, indirect object, genitive possessing noun, subject, etc. Wheelock isn't perfect. Having a professor teach me in person helped greatly. Like everyone has been saying, get started ASAP. I got a C- in my first semester Latin after 6 years of French and 2 semesters Hebrew. (albeit i'm still awful in French)

[Therewillbeluke]

On the point of learning languages I'll say this much: the more languages you attempt, the easier it will become.

 

In my case I took a year of German and was okay at it, however, now I'm in Latin and am doing pretty well. Once you attempt one language you see things about how languages operate which makes learning subsequent languages easier in my opinion.

[Qaus-gabri]

It's true, I've done Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Ugaritic, and German. While each has its own challenges, once the conceptual categories have been created (e.g. case, gender, etc.) the next becomes easier.

While philological approaches may be passé, I personally have found the philological components of my education some of the most challenging and rewarding. In other words, you can read and write on your own time; when else will you have the opportunity to do this sort of study?

Meh, just my $0.02

[sacklunch]

It's true, I've done Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Ugaritic, and German. While each has its own challenges, once the conceptual categories have been created (e.g. case, gender, etc.) the next becomes easier.

While philological approaches may be passé, I personally have found the philological components of my education some of the most challenging and rewarding. In other words, you can read and write on your own time; when else will you have the opportunity to do this sort of study?

Meh, just my $0.02

 

YES. I have heard the same thing from numerous professors. You can read all the secondary material once you finally graduate. You will not be able to access all the languages (as easily) once you are gone.

 

FWIW, when I'm done with my MA at Duke I will have a substantial amount of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Latin, and German. I have made it my number one priority to spend a ton of time on the language component, in part because it is essential I think in getting into a top program, but also because I want to work within text-criticism.

 

[Seatbelt Blue]

I'm trying to figure out how to stagger my language courses so I can max it out at minimum cost. At minimum I need German, because my fiancee and I have plans to relocate there and it's a pretty useful language in theology, but I'd also like to get French (because I reaalllly want to study Congar and de Lubac) and I'd really like to get my Italian back up to snuff after four years of disuse.

 

Any ideas? I figure it'd probably be best to skip French entirely and focus on German and Italian.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Seatbelt Blue

[toby42]

FWIW, when I'm done with my MA at Duke I will have a substantial amount of Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Latin, and German. I have made it my number one priority to spend a ton of time on the language component, in part because it is essential I think in getting into a top program, but also because I want to work within text-criticism.

 

I've spent a lot of time with languages, starting w/ two years of Greek (Koine) in high school. Since then, I've been continually and steadily growing in languages and text criticism. This is something I'd also really like to get into further, but unfortunately does not appear to be a strong suit at my first choice school. What schools are at the top of the heap when it comes to text criticism?

[Josh J.]

My area is American Religious History. Many programs only require one language, while some require two. I took French in HS (Looong time ago) and couldn't hardly speak it but could somewhat read it.

I figure I'll do French during the MTS and then Spanish if I need a second one for the PhD. Anyone have any thoughts that I should do it differently?

[Therewillbeluke]

My area is American Religious History. Many programs only require one language, while some require two. I took French in HS (Looong time ago) and couldn't hardly speak it but could somewhat read it.

I figure I'll do French during the MTS and then Spanish if I need a second one for the PhD. Anyone have any thoughts that I should do it differently?

 

I'd say sub out Spanish for German if you need to do a second one since those are the two basic modern languages that departments want.

Since, however, American Religious History is your subfield Spanish may be useful depending on your interests. If thats the case then go for Spanish.

[kacei]

It's true, I've done Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, Aramaic, Akkadian, Ugaritic, and German. While each has its own challenges, once the conceptual categories have been created (e.g. case, gender, etc.) the next becomes easier.

While philological approaches may be passé, I personally have found the philological components of my education some of the most challenging and rewarding. In other words, you can read and write on your own time; when else will you have the opportunity to do this sort of study?

Meh, just my $0.02

You know all of the languages I want to learn!  Do you find that you are rare in your field with such a specific bunch of languages?  And how easy was it to transition from Hebrew to Aramaic/Akkadian/Ugaritic?  (Assuming that you took Hebrew first)

[sacklunch]

I've spent a lot of time with languages, starting w/ two years of Greek (Koine) in high school. Since then, I've been continually and steadily growing in languages and text criticism. This is something I'd also really like to get into further, but unfortunately does not appear to be a strong suit at my first choice school. What schools are at the top of the heap when it comes to text criticism?

 

I assume from your profile you are applying to ND's ECS? If so, there is plenty of opportunities to get into text-criticism there....maybe better than most places. As for which places are 'the best?' It depends on what subfield you are in, but honestly many of them are overseas. Americans seem to be, on average, more interested in theology. Even all those interested in biblical studies seem to be more interested in theology. The only reason I have heard is Europeans are just more secular and approaching biblical material as an atheist/agnostic leaves little besides text-criticism. Meh? It is a shame I'm not more proficient with German...I would much rather go abroad.

[toby42]

I assume from your profile you are applying to ND's ECS? If so, there is plenty of opportunities to get into text-criticism there....maybe better than most places.

 

You are correct. And... really? That's good to hear. In my campus visit, the MTS director said there wasn't much in the way of text criticism except for the occasional seminar, but that was from the MTS perspective, I s'pose. In a couple classes I sat in on, I could see how there still might be a lot of t-c learning available through various classes - just no classes specifically on t-c.

 

As for the more secular/critical examination of scripture from the European side, that makes sense. My Greek prof. went to Leiden and said that it was incredibly scholarly, incredibly secular, and sometimes incredibly rough. But I'm fine with that. While a devout, full-fledged believer, myself, I certainly don't mind mixing it up w/ minds opposed to mine in all areas and perspectives. Sharpens the mind and brings understanding. But... I don't think moving to Europe's in the cards at the moment.  ...Ph.D, maybe?

Edited March 12, 2013 by toby42

[sacklunch]

You are correct. And... really? That's good to hear. In my campus visit, the MTS director said there wasn't much in the way of text criticism except for the occasional seminar, but that was from the MTS perspective, I s'pose. In a couple classes I sat in on, I could see how there still might be a lot of t-c learning available through various classes - just no classes specifically on t-c.

 

As for the more secular/critical examination of scripture from the European side, that makes sense. My Greek prof. went to Leiden and said that it was incredibly scholarly, incredibly secular, and sometimes incredibly rough. But I'm fine with that. While a devout, full-fledged believer, myself, I certainly don't mind mixing it up w/ minds opposed to mine in all areas and perspectives. Sharpens the mind and brings understanding. But... I don't think moving to Europe's in the cards at the moment.  ...Ph.D, maybe?

 

I didn't mean a course specifically on text-criticism (who does even? maybe UNC-CH), just that they have scholars there are who text-critics. In my field, at least, Ulrich is one of the top people in the world. It certainly is one of my top choices...me and everyone else.

[NTstudent]

You are correct. And... really? That's good to hear. In my campus visit, the MTS director said there wasn't much in the way of text criticism except for the occasional seminar, but that was from the MTS perspective, I s'pose. In a couple classes I sat in on, I could see how there still might be a lot of t-c learning available through various classes - just no classes specifically on t-c.   As for the more secular/critical examination of scripture from the European side, that makes sense. My Greek prof. went to Leiden and said that it was incredibly scholarly, incredibly secular, and sometimes incredibly rough. But I'm fine with that. While a devout, full-fledged believer, myself, I certainly don't mind mixing it up w/ minds opposed to mine in all areas and perspectives. Sharpens the mind and brings understanding. But... I don't think moving to Europe's in the cards at the moment.  ...Ph.D, maybe?

TC is a growing subfield. I would try to work with a particular text critic if I were in you shoes. Also, it really depends on whether you're talking NT or HB/LXX text criticism. As a NT person, I can't really speak to where would be best for HB/LXX, but Germany is probably the most likely. John's Hopkins would probably be good too, but their focus would perhaps be more in epigraphy? As far as NT goes, the best place right now is University of Birmingham. D. C. Parker is doing some of the most interesting work in the field and they are working diligently to utilize technology for the collation of manuscripts. If you want to stay stateside, there is UNC Chapel Hill and you could work with Ehrman, but I don't know how likely you are to spend time with Ehrman, as he is publishing at a feverish pace. If you're definitely wanting to stay stateside and you're wanting to work in a faith context, as it sounds like you are. You should really look into Dallas Theological Seminary. Dan Wallace is doing some of the best work stateside on new manuscripts. Just food for thought.

[NTstudent]

For languages I would echo what everyone else has already said in terms of the more languages the better both for speed in aquisition and getting into programs. In terms of whether to focus on Latin or Greek first it just depends. With your extensive french knowledge I might suggest starting with Latin. There is summer intensive program that's online, but very effective. Google "Erasmus Academy NY Summer Language Program" they provide courses in German, Latin, Greek, French and I think some others. They also provide the ability to prove your language skill with a language for reading credit. Some school accept their course in place of their credits. They focus on reading languages for the humanities, so it's the kind of language study that will help you get into texts quickly. As always, however, there is no subsitute for time at task. Hope that helps

[toby42]

TC is a growing subfield. I would try to work with a particular text critic if I were in you shoes. Also, it really depends on whether you're talking NT or HB/LXX text criticism. As a NT person, I can't really speak to where would be best for HB/LXX, but Germany is probably the most likely. John's Hopkins would probably be good too, but their focus would perhaps be more in epigraphy? As far as NT goes, the best place right now is University of Birmingham. D. C. Parker is doing some of the most interesting work in the field and they are working diligently to utilize technology for the collation of manuscripts. If you want to stay stateside, there is UNC Chapel Hill and you could work with Ehrman, but I don't know how likely you are to spend time with Ehrman, as he is publishing at a feverish pace. If you're definitely wanting to stay stateside and you're wanting to work in a faith context, as it sounds like you are. You should really look into Dallas Theological Seminary. Dan Wallace is doing some of the best work stateside on new manuscripts. Just food for thought.

 

Wow, great suggestions, thank you. I'll probably couple your first suggestion with jdm's and look at working with Dr. Ulrich if accepted to ND. He specializes in OT/DSS/LXX, but that's an area that I'm lacking in, so it would be perfect. I've done a lot with the NT already, particularly through Metzger's works... which makes working with Ehrman an interesting idea!  But thanks for the other ideas; I'm going to have to look around at the schools you suggested as well.

 

 

p.s... sorry for the hijack, all. Unintended. /done

Edited March 13, 2013 by toby42