Faculty perspectives

[aecp]

Thanks, Prof. BFB,

 

Yes, I understand the process differs from year to year and institution to institution, but some sense at how the process worked at institution X in year Y would provide some color.  Thanks for providing a little color.

 

One thing that I am keen on knowing is how do you reach consensus during the meeting, I would imagine there are cases where tiebreakers are not so clear and a particular candidate may have  a strong advocate and a strong "opponent".  Can "consensus" be reached in such a case?  Or is the tiebreaker in such a case the internal clout of the advocate and the "opponent"?

 

It is a clearly a complex process with apparently a great deal of randomness - hence a lot of the anxiety we students face.  We just pray for any randomness to work in our favor and for anxiety not to kill us!

[BFB]

One thing that I am keen on knowing is how do you reach consensus during the meeting, I would imagine there are cases where tiebreakers are not so clear and a particular candidate may have  a strong advocate and a strong "opponent".  Can "consensus" be reached in such a case?  Or is the tiebreaker in such a case the internal clout of the advocate and the "opponent"?

 

Internal "clout" isn't the first answer I'd give. My very strong preference is for the committee to resolve such disagreements as a whole. If we end up deadlocked, I'll cast the deciding vote just to keep things moving, but I prefer not to do that. And no, that has little to do with internal "clout": admin position aside, I'd probably come out close to last in that competition. 

 

My point is that a lot of what you perceive as randomness really isn't. If we decide in the end that you're not a great fit, or that Snodgrass already has too many students, that's not random: those are systematic factors that make this a less suitable place for you to be than you probably realize.

[aecp]

Internal "clout" isn't the first answer I'd give. My very strong preference is for the committee to resolve such disagreements as a whole. If we end up deadlocked, I'll cast the deciding vote just to keep things moving, but I prefer not to do that. And no, that has little to do with internal "clout": admin position aside, I'd probably come out close to last in that competition. 

 

My point is that a lot of what you perceive as randomness really isn't. If we decide in the end that you're not a great fit, or that Snodgrass already has too many students, that's not random: those are systematic factors that make this a less suitable place for you to be than you probably realize.

 

These two points, particulary the last one are reassuring.  I kept on hearing the "randomness" meme from students and even faculty that I became convinced of its veracity.  Randomness is typically discussed when highlighting the surplus of exceptionally qualified candidates. I still want to believe, even if naively, that the AdComms pick the best students who are "best for their departments" and if you present a competitive application to the right place you'll get admitted.

 

My biggest fear as hinted in my initial list of questions is this:

 

"9.  Is it true that many AdComm members routinely do not read certain areas of the file e.g. CV, SOP or writing sample and others generally just quickly skim the file."

 

Thanks again, Prof. BFB

 

 

[BFB]

I can't say, honestly. Speaking for myself, I spend the most time reading the files of the people who are on the fence. Those are the hardest decisions, and that's where we need the most info.

[aecp]

I can't say, honestly. Speaking for myself, I spend the most time reading the files of the people who are on the fence. Those are the hardest decisions, and that's where we need the most info.

Many Thanks for your candor and all your help through this thread.

[jazzrap]

Many thanks, professor!

[Poli92]

This other one studies X and we're short on people who study X.

 

If you're in the thirties, it's hit or miss, depending on things like whether Snodgrass has enough people working with him or whether lots of the other top applicants study what you do.

 

I'm curious how prospective students might get a feel for whether or not "Professor Snodgrass" has too many students working with him. I know that some programs provide info on the interests of its grad students and you could infer who students are likely working with, but many schools do not provide such information, and it's hard to be sure how many students a professor is willing to advise.

 

Would this be the kind of thing that it would be appropriate to contact an administrator or POI about? Would that be too presumptuous? 

[gradcafe26]

I'm curious how prospective students might get a feel for whether or not "Professor Snodgrass" has too many students working with him. I know that some programs provide info on the interests of its grad students and you could infer who students are likely working with, but many schools do not provide such information, and it's hard to be sure how many students a professor is willing to advise.

 

Would this be the kind of thing that it would be appropriate to contact an administrator or POI about? Would that be too presumptuous? 

 

I did contact quite a few POIs regarding that question, and my experience is that, 30% POIs no response, 40% POIs say this is not your concern (and from their tone I sensed that this question is indeed presumptuous), 30% POIs say yes I’m taking students, looking forward to your application. But this is just my impression based on a small n, BFB’s insights would be greatly appreciated.

[BFB]

I did contact quite a few POIs regarding that question

 

Exactly what I was going to recommend.

 

and my experience is that, 30% POIs no response, 40% POIs say this is not your concern (and from their tone I sensed that this question is indeed presumptuous), 30% POIs say yes I’m taking students, looking forward to your application. But this is just my impression based on a small n, BFB’s insights would be greatly appreciated.

 

"This is not your concern"??

 

It's absolutely your concern. The committee may or may not take your POI's workload into account when making an admission decision. If you don't get this question answered at some point, you could end up choosing a department only to find that your POI doesn't have the time or inclination to work with you. I realize it's hard to push back on something like this, but by my lights that's a pretty bullshit answer.

 

ETA: Frankly, if you get anything other than "Yes, I'm taking students, looking forward to your application," I'd consider alternatives. We're busy, but we should be able to spare time for that response, at least.

Edited January 9, 2014 by BFB

[aecp]

Exactly what I was going to recommend.

 

 

"This is not your concern"??

 

It's absolutely your concern. The committee may or may not take your POI's workload into account when making an admission decision. If you don't get this question answered at some point, you could end up choosing a department only to find that your POI doesn't have the time or inclination to work with you. I realize it's hard to push back on something like this, but by my lights that's a pretty bullshit answer.

 

ETA: Frankly, if you get anything other than "Yes, I'm taking students, looking forward to your application," I'd consider alternatives. We're busy, but we should be able to spare time for that response, at least.

Professor BFB,

 

You are different and I will keep on thanking you. Sadly, not all of your colleagues adopt your approach.

 

You are correct, it's a very important question, but sadly not all professors will provide even the one line cursory yes/no response - some won't even say "it's not your concern" - just silence!  Its incredibly frustrating.  Not only frustrating, some times it even makes you wonder if there is something in your background preventing even a cursory reply - you begin to wonder if silence is code for "don't apply here!".

[gradcafe26]

Exactly what I was going to recommend.

 

 

"This is not your concern"??

 

It's absolutely your concern. The committee may or may not take your POI's workload into account when making an admission decision. If you don't get this question answered at some point, you could end up choosing a department only to find that your POI doesn't have the time or inclination to work with you. I realize it's hard to push back on something like this, but by my lights that's a pretty bullshit answer.

 

ETA: Frankly, if you get anything other than "Yes, I'm taking students, looking forward to your application," I'd consider alternatives. We're busy, but we should be able to spare time for that response, at least.

 

Thank you very much BFB!

[BFB]

Professor BFB,

 

You are different and I will keep on thanking you.

 

Why, thank you!

 

some times it even makes you wonder if there is something in your background preventing even a cursory reply - you begin to wonder if silence is code for "don't apply here!".

 

Trust me. It's a them problem, not a you problem.

[TakeMyCoffeeBlack]

ETA: Frankly, if you get anything other than "Yes, I'm taking students, looking forward to your application," I'd consider alternatives. We're busy, but we should be able to spare time for that response, at least.

 

I never thought to ask directly, "Are you taking students?" Which seems silly, since it's so obvious... But considering the professors whom I did contact responded with several lines explaining why I'd be a good fit for the programs, I'm going to cross my fingers and hope that means they're taking students. I'll ask directly, of course, should I receive any acceptances.

[Poli92]

It's absolutely your concern. The committee may or may not take your POI's workload into account when making an admission decision. If you don't get this question answered at some point, you could end up choosing a department only to find that your POI doesn't have the time or inclination to work with you. I realize it's hard to push back on something like this, but by my lights that's a pretty bullshit answer.

 

ETA: Frankly, if you get anything other than "Yes, I'm taking students, looking forward to your application," I'd consider alternatives. We're busy, but we should be able to spare time for that response, at least.

 

Thanks for your response! If someone were reaching out to you or your department, when would you say would be too early? I plan on writing my SOP's over the summer, and if I could find out beforehand if I'm wasting my time one one or another school because they don't have a need for someone with my interests, that would be ideal, because then I could focus more on the others. Would reaching out in the spring or early summer be unreasonable?  

[jeudepaume]

I did contact quite a few POIs regarding that question, and my experience is that, 30% POIs no response, 40% POIs say this is not your concern (and from their tone I sensed that this question is indeed presumptuous), 30% POIs say yes I’m taking students, looking forward to your application. But this is just my impression based on a small n, BFB’s insights would be greatly appreciated.

 

Gee, I'm starting to think 'theory people' are a nice kind.) 100% of people I contacted responded, and even those few, who said they didn't have time to talk to applicants, always added that they accept students and encouraged to apply. A person that didn't accept students was even kind enough to recommend a couple of their colleagues who work in the same area. 

 

The way I did it was by briefly describing my interests, pointing where they intersect with the POI's work, and asking if he or she accepts students for the next year.

[BFB]

Thanks for your response! If someone were reaching out to you or your department, when would you say would be too early? I plan on writing my SOP's over the summer, and if I could find out beforehand if I'm wasting my time one one or another school because they don't have a need for someone with my interests, that would be ideal, because then I could focus more on the others. Would reaching out in the spring or early summer be unreasonable?  

 

Spring is tricky; it's a pretty busy time. But summer could be worse, depending on your POI's research plans. I'd shoot for spring break or the week or so after spring semester… but YMMV. In particular, if your POI is around during the summer, summer's probably better.

[hailmary]

First and foremost - thank you so much for your insight and advice!  I ready through all of the pages and last night and it was really really helpful.  

 

Jumping back to a previous conversation, I had one question about waivers and the GRE.  Is that typical - do most schools have waivers they can use for funding purposes to offset a section of the application?  

 

I ask because my GRE scores are really low - at the cut off for my top choice (public policy) program.  The rest of my application I believe is really strong.  But I have a feeling I would need a waiver to bounce back from my GRE scores.  Is that pretty common? 

Edited January 10, 2014 by hailmary

[BFB]

Jumping back to a previous conversation, I had one question about waivers and the GRE.  Is that typical - do most schools have waivers they can use for funding purposes to offset a section of the application?  

 

I hope not. Frankly, waivers are a "fix," a tacit admission that mandatory cutoffs are a bad idea in the first place. If it were up to me, I'd jettison them entirely. The Graduate School should trust its faculty when it comes to making judgments about applicants to their programs and let us decide when one factor outweighs another. (I realize that's a predictable response coming from a faculty member, but that doesn't make it wrong.)

 

To the point, though, I've never seen either mandatory minimums or waivers at another university.

[hailmary]

Got it.  So, basically, at most schools if the adcomm can get past your GRE scores, the graduate school should have no problem granting funding.  Thanks!

[BFB]

Got it.  So, basically, at most schools if the adcomm can get past your GRE scores, the graduate school should have no problem granting funding.  Thanks!

 

That is, if the Grad School is doling out the funding on a case-by-case basis rather than just handing the Department funds.

 

Like I said, a lot of variables.

[silver_lining]

That one seems especially likely to come. 

 

Professor Nooruddin last year:  "Do we assign weights to the probabilities a given admit will come (i.e., do we have models of the yield?)? Of course, we do. But top departments believe they can compete and do."

Just wondering, how can admissions committees tell if someone is likely to come or not?

[BFB]

how can admissions committees tell if someone is likely to come or not?

 

A lot of different parts of an application or a phone chat can inform a committee's guess. In the end, though, it's really just a guess, and it's often wrong. But we have to try.

[TakeMyCoffeeBlack]

In an "informal interview" like the ones OSU has done this year (though as I understand it - and I'm not an OSU applicant - this is more of a preliminary recruitment/getting to know you process in OSU's case, no?), what would be the types of things the interviewer might be looking for (positive and negative)? If a University has granted an interview, are they at this point gauging student interest, seriousness, etc. or might it be the make or break of the application?

[BFB]

In an "informal interview" like the ones OSU has done this year (though as I understand it - and I'm not an OSU applicant - this is more of a preliminary recruitment/getting to know you process in OSU's case, no?), what would be the types of things the interviewer might be looking for (positive and negative)? If a University has granted an interview, are they at this point gauging student interest, seriousness, etc. or might it be the make or break of the application?

 

I don't mean to be evasive, but it's hard to say. What does an individual researcher want in a graduate student? Some value being quick on your feet while others place a premium on well-thought-through answers, even if they come via email later on. Some are interested in persistence, others in raw academic aptitude. Mostly, what the committee cares about is the answer to the question, "How much do you want to work with this person?"

 

Could it make or break an application? You could put it that way, though I'd be reluctant to do so myself, and not just because blood pressures would shoot through the roof if I did. We're having chats with the medium list, and we can't accept everyone. The interviews are designed to provide more information than files do, and in so doing to help us make better decisions. They're designed to do a better job of sorting people who should come here from people who shouldn't.

Edited January 19, 2014 by BFB

[TakeMyCoffeeBlack]

I don't mean to be evasive, but it's hard to say. What does an individual researcher want in a graduate student? Some value being quick on your feet while others place a premium on well-thought-through answers, even if they come via email later on. Some are interested in persistence, others in raw academic aptitude. Mostly, what the committee cares about is the answer to the question, "How much do you want to work with this person?"

 

Could it make or break an application? You could put it that way, though I'd be reluctant to do so myself, and not just because blood pressures would shoot through the roof if I did. We're having chats with the medium list, and we can't accept everyone. The interviews are designed to provide more information than files do, and in so doing to help us make better decisions. They're designed to do a better job of sorting people who should come here from people who shouldn't.

 

Would you say that there's variation to this process if, for example, an admissions committee member who is not a POI were conducting the (informal) interview?

 

Though I can't say I expected an answer different from the one you've offered. Well, I wanted to hear, "they just want to win your heart." But I knew that wasn't realistic.

 

Thanks!