Graduate student-undergraduate boundaries...?

[fancyfeast]

Hi. I'm new here. I'm an undergrad, female, and a junior. Just wanted advice on how to handle this situation that I put myself in.

 

There is a graduate student in the lab I work in who I'm kind of friends with (we're both female - not lesbians, just kinda friends. I say "kinda" because there's a bit of an age difference; it's not always possible to relate to one another/she helps guide me when I ask, she's not my mentor though). We get along fairly well, we like the same things and actually spend a good deal of time hanging out outside the lab... Sounds great, right?

 

Well, here's the problem... When she's stressed - which can be quite often - she is utterly, absolutely rude, mean, and dismissive towards me. There's never any warning - something as simple as a hello in the morning when I first see her or a glance in her direction that can set her off. She'll glare at me, mumble what I assume is hello, and say something about how she's working on an experiment (aka - leave me the hell alone). Once she ran out of the office after I said asked how her week was after being out of the lab for exams - I guess she had somewhere to be? I don't think I can convey how she looks/talks/acts towards me via writing. It's all sneers and annoyance - and I swear I'm not pestering her! And I don't usually get mad. How can I when I know she just does it because she's stressed? The thing is, she only does it to me and, to be honest, it stings. How am I to know when she's willing to talk and when she just wants to be left alone? It's one thing for me to bother her after realizing she's busy, but I feel like it's another to say hello to her or look in her general direction, and get treated like crap - maybe it's because I'm younger than her so it's okay? It's fine to be stressed and just want some space but it's not okay to be rude to me for no reason. 

 

I think this is happening because there are blurred lines between the mentor/friend relationship that we have and it's never been an issue until recently. When I first learned how she gets when she's busy or stressed I didn't know her very well and I actually worked under her. I accepted it as part of life as an undergraduate researcher. Now that I'm working on my own with a mentor who knows more about my project, and now that I am sort of friends with my old mentor, I think I am getting confused and perhaps (keyword) offended like I would if she were a friend/peer.

 

Do I take a step back? I really like her as a friend, but it's really, really getting kind of old. I've started only talking to her if she approaches me, but she noticed I'm not as friendly as before and I just told her I was worried about an exam this week... I think maybe leaving her alone in the lab is my best course of action, but I want to know if I am justified enough in feeling consistently disrespected (not exactly the word I want to use) or if I should just accept it as part of being the bottom of the rung and move on. I'd like to be honest and let her know it bothers me, but if it's not worth it/not appropriate, I won't.

 

PS - sorry if the title was misleading! No romantic affairs here

 

Ninja edit - Just reread this and I'm not convinced I accurately described how she is, thus making me look super sensitive. Let me put this another way, she is normally the sweetest girl ever. So kind, so willing to help, and really funny. It's like one hour she'll be friends with me, the next hour I'm the scourge of the lab for distracting her from her work. To me, that is not normal behavior that one should put up with (if the behavior comes from a friend). Maybe this is just how it's supposed to be, but how do I just learn to accept it?

 

Edit edit... Wanted to see if you could upvote yourself and I guess you can - I swear I'm not vain, just curious!

Edited November 12, 2013 by fancyfeast

[GeoDUDE!]

graduate students have deadlines that undergraduates do not have. she might  be unloading her stress in a mature way, but you should just get out of her way. It isn't a graduate students role to be friends with you, or mentor you. I've been known to snap at people close to deadlines.... its just something that happens.

Edited November 12, 2013 by GeoDUDE!

[fancyfeast]

Yeah, I understand she has things going on. And after writing that novel up above I think I kind of realized I should just let her come to me during the day. I felt so guilty though when she asked me why I haven't been talking to her! This is why I think I should stop hanging out with her.

 

I don't see what you're trying to say about it's not a grad's job to be friends with me... it's no one's job to be friends with me! She first invited me to go with her places. And as far as mentoring goes, that's kind of how it works in our lab... I don't know, the PI is too busy to get the undergrads up and running himself, and since he cares about exposing us to research he kinda pushes the grads to take care of us. It sucks and I honestly feel bad when I have to take time from their schedules because I need help. But that's not the problem here, I guess.

 

Just realized you used the word "role" instead of job, but close enough I guess

Edited November 12, 2013 by fancyfeast

[GeoDUDE!]

I guess what I was really trying to say is nobody is perfect. Just like every other relationship in life, you need to evaluate if the pros outweigh the cons. I'm willing to be if she went to her advisor and said, man I have all this work, I have no time to teach this UG or help this UG, the advisor would tell her to get her own work done. That's how grad school is. my first semester I complained about my teaching load, and they told me to stop spending as much time teaching and essentially do a shitty job. This is why small liberal art schools can get away with costing so much; they don't have any of these problems. Research universities will always focus on research and teaching 2nd. Thats just the way it is. There are some distinct advantages to your situation; not everyone has them. Remember, what you have here is truly a "first world" problem. 

 

Have you ever thought about talking to her about it? It probably won't change anything though.

[fancyfeast]

Yeah I agree with everything you said. We were supposed to get drinks for her birthday this Friday and maybe I can tell her then or let her know beforehand and use it as an excuse to not go so that we can start to keep things more professional. I don't think it will change anything, but I am certain she has no idea she's doing it. She once told me I couldn't sit next to her at a seminar because she was so distracted by our PI glaring at her haha. She meant to say yes and had no idea why I went somewhere else for the talk! It's just how she is and I can put up with it most of the time. 

 

I know this won't matter to me at all in the long run, I'm just so confused right now about what's appropriate and what isn't! Thanks for the help. If anyone else has an opinion on this let me know. I obviously like over-analyzing the situation.

[TakeruK]

I don't think this is a problem with graduate-undergraduate student boundaries at all. You don't have to take crap from other people because you are an undergraduate or because you are on the "lowest rung" etc. and the graduate student does not have any right to treat you like less than a peer.

 

This situation would not be any different if you were both grad students, or if you were both undergrads. I have never treated an undergraduate as anyone different than a colleague, especially if they were working in the same group as me. So, to me, this sounds like you and this graduate student do not have the best relationship. You guys work in the same lab, so it's definitely easier if you were all friends, but people are not always friends with everyone! 

 

Thus, I would abandon all preconceptions about what an "appropriate" grad-undergrad relationship should be. You are two coworkers, working in the same place. If you want to be friends then do what you normally do with you want to make friends -- if the other is responsive, continue; if not, then probably back off and just not be friends. If there are mixed signals, then maybe talking about it would work but it can also be kind of awkward, in my opinion/experience.

 

But my opinion is that you shouldn't think of this as a "grad-student / undergrad student" issue, but just an issue between two colleagues / two people. 

[SocGirl2013]

It does sound kind of frustrating. I would say this: just talk to her. It's never inappropriate to say politely, "Hey are there certain times you want to be left alone? I want to know so that situation X that bothers me slightly does not happen. I understand you're a grad student/super stressed etc, so I don't hold it against you but it would be helpful to know how we can avoid such situations in the future."
After this if she continues, she's really not worth your time. There are lots of people who can give you advice.

[fancyfeast]

Well, I had to be in the lab today to look at some samples and I ran into her on my way out. She asked me if I was still coming on Friday and I told her I wasn't sure. She pushed me, wanting to know why (I think she thought it was related to this guy I'm seeing) and I just bluntly told her I didn't know if it was a good idea to be friends and work in the same lab. She didn't understand what I was talking about, like I predicted, and so I elaborated, trying really hard to show that I understood where she was coming from and stressing that I was just confused.

 

She's can be really sensitive and moody, so she started to cry and now I feel absolutely terrible. I do not think I said anything harsh, because I have nothing harsh to say about the situation other than I sometimes feel like I don't deserve the treatment I received (but I didn't say anything even akin to that). I think she felt really guilty... I told her that she had no reason to be upset, but it didn't help. Another grad came in and I didn't see the situation getting any better so I left to go catch a bus and now I'm questioning what possessed me to complain about this at all. I can only say I feel a little better letting her know how I felt, but I also feel selfish for causing her stress when, judging by the number of dismissive comments I received last week, she's already quite stressed herself.

 

Honestly feeling like a shoddy human being

[memyselfandcoffee]

you have no reason to feel like a shoddy human being. This girl is obviously under a lot of stress and not handling it well, well that how it looks to me.. the mood swings, the crying. I personally agree with poster who said you should not look at it as some kind of hierarchal relationship-- you are both researchers/coworkers. As a grad student myself i certainly don't think undergrads should take crap from me, and I don't think any of the faculty would think they should either.

 

As far as where to go next, i would keep my distance but be friendly in a professional way not a friendship way. You don't have to be friends with someone who takes out there moods on you even if a) they are slightly senior to you and b-  even if you feel sorry for them for being so stressed.

 

I actually feel sorry for the girl, but really don't think its your job to make her feel better my letting her treat you like crap. 

 

Good luck

Edited November 13, 2013 by elise123

[pearspears]

Honestly, she is probably intimidated by you. As an undergraduate I knew of many of my friends (I, somehow, avoided this by acting somewhat anti-social, but then everyone thought I was a bitch, but pick your battles I guess...) who were very talented, some of them noticeably more so than the graduates that were "above" them in the program. I can only guess that this instilled in them a sense of inferiority that they then proceeded to take out on the more-talented undergraduates. Unfortunately, unless you are willing to get bad grades to make this person like you, I would just try to steer clear until you or they graduate.

[juilletmercredi]

Oh please - I would not assume that she was intimidated by you.  I have been impressed by many an undergrad - many who were more talented than I was when I was at their stage - but intimidated by none so far, and I've been here 6 years and have worked with a lot of undergrads.

 

I think she sounds like a person who does not know how to handle stress.  You have shown her that you are willing to take her abuse (inadvertently), so she uses you as a whipping board when she needs to lash out at something.  This has to stop - it doesn't matter that you're younger or at a different level.  You are both human beings and she needs to treat you like one.

 

If you want to make it work, then I would just be frank with her.  "Look, Sally, I would really like for us to continue our great working relationship.  But I've noticed that when you are stressed out, you lash out at me.  It hurts me and I would like for you not to do that."

 

It sounds like you said something similar to that and she started crying - again, don't blame yourself, as this is her, not you.  She either hasn't yet learned how to handle her emotions in an adult way, or she's having a really difficult time right now and just needs to work through it.  You can be friendly with her in the lab, but any time she snaps at you just remind her that she's taking her frustrations out on you and you don't like that.  If she persists even through the reminders, then I would just avoid her.

 

And please remember this for when you go into your own grad program and through life - you don't need to take abuse from anyone, regardless of their level.  Now of course when you start getting into adviser-advisee relationships and people who could destroy your career it gets a little more tricky, but that doesn't mean that you can't politely and respectfully address the abuse when it happens.

Edited November 13, 2013 by juilletmercredi

[emmm]

I would not consider someone who acted like this to be a real friend. You can be civil acquaintances...but I don't think you could trust her to really care about you, except perhaps insofar as how you could be of benefit to her. Friends support and encourage each other. It's fine to tell a friend that you just need to be alone to process stuff. It's not fine to treat a friend like garbage.

[Guest |||]

graduate students have deadlines that undergraduates do not have. she might  be unloading her stress in a mature way, but you should just get out of her way. It isn't a graduate students role to be friends with you, or mentor you. I've been known to snap at people close to deadlines.... its just something that happens.

 

While I generally agree, I think we all as colleagues here can also agree, this is to some extent reflective of poor professionalism.

 

Yes we all are stressed sometimes, but part of not just being a graduate student but also an adult, is keeping things in check and not abusing others.

 

Graduate student, mentor, friend, or whichever, someone who continually does this to you probably isn't the best person to try and have a personal connection with.

[CageFree]

I could almost understand this behavior if you two were close in age but you said she's older. She can't handle the stress and taking it out on you is wrong. It doesn't seem as if she does it on purpose, but unless you see a huge improvement, I would not think of this person as your "friend."

 

As for the people saying that it's not a GS's job to mentor, some schools and programs encourage mentorship, either through formal means (my school has a program designed for that) or simply by encouraging collegiality. 

[TakeruK]

Mentorship between graduate students and undergraduates are a good thing, but this doesn't mean that every graduate student is a mentor for every undergraduate student. If the relationship between this particular graduate student and undergraduate student isn't working out, then it's probably best for the undergrad to find a new mentor. Mentors don't necessarily have to be in the same lab/sub-field as the mentee! 

[GeoDUDE!]

While I generally agree, I think we all as colleagues here can also agree, this is to some extent reflective of poor professionalism.

 

Yes we all are stressed sometimes, but part of not just being a graduate student but also an adult, is keeping things in check and not abusing others.

 

Graduate student, mentor, friend, or whichever, someone who continually does this to you probably isn't the best person to try and have a personal connection with.

 

 

I agree, I don't want to make it seem like i'm siding with the graduate student, i'm just proposing solution and logic behind it.  Like I said, I am prone to snapping, but I do apologize after I do it (maybe like once a semester when people start asking me too many matlab questions).  Anyway, a person like that isn't a good mentor if you are feeling abused.