Philosophical Theology Programs

[RichardHooker]

Hello, I'm looking for some advice about some future graduate and doctoral-level programs in theology and/or philosophy. I'll list some points here to give some idea of my background and what I'm looking for in my theology program or philosophy of religion programs. It might be a long post, but I'd appreciate input from people knowledgeable on these subjects. I've had a lot of input coming from people from a future ministry angle, but not as much from an academic angle.

 

I'm coming from a Conservative Anglican perspective (hence using the Anglican Divine as my username). I'm not necessarily looking for a program that is from that perspective, or even a conservative perspective necessarily. However, I would like a friendly and conducive environment for conservative and evangelical perspectives if possible. From what I've read Duke is a good choice for this, but I have concerns about my grades and my undergrad's reputation.

 

I didn't go to undergrad well-regarded for its academic rigor (Liberty University if you must ask). To make matters worse, I was kind of lazy and graduated with a 3.44. My major was Biblical Studies, and I have taken most Greek that I would need. I've considered getting a second bachelor's in philosophy to show some better grades, but I don't really want to do that unless absolutely necessary. Also, I didn't cultivate much of a relationship with too many professors, though I'm sure I could muster up the needed recomendations, but only one or two would really be a good recommendation. I've considered going back to my undergrad for an MA in Philosophy since I could basically do it for free (GA position being a good bet there) with a guaranteed admit, but then I'd just have to somewhere else for a more academic M.Div and then try to get into a better Doctoral program from there.

 

I've also considered studies (and even settling and working) abroad, naturally in the UK as an Anglican and general Anglophile. The obvious choices there are Oxbridge or St. Andrews, but grades once again enter that picture. Since second bachelor's are more common in the UK from my understanding from English relatives and online sources, I'd be more likely to try to get a second degree in some related subject there, and make sure to stick-to-it and get better marks and open up more opportunities at more reputable programs.

 

I want to be in the academic community, but my main priority is serving the Church, not necessarily being an ivory tower theologian who writes a lot of journal articles about mundane issues. Don't get me wrong here: I'm fascinated by a lot of those topics, I just don't see that being my primary concern. I'll probably try to end up teaching at a conservative seminary or university, but I do want to keep my options open.

 

Feel free to put in further input, but here are some of the schools I've looked at for different programs: Westminster Theological Seminary, Reformed Theological Seminary, Trinity School for Ministry, Nashotah House Theological Seminary, Princeton Theological Seminary, and Duke Divinity. My main concern is overcoming that relatively poor undergrad GPA compared to some and lack of relationship cultivation, which is the primary reason I'm even considering going back to my alma mater for an MA.

 

 

[sacklunch]

I'm not anywhere near your subfield, but, as you prolly know, most MDiv programs are not terribly difficult to get into. You clearly have defined interests, so I don't think your GPA will hurt you too much for (competitive) MA/MDiv programs. Although, I wonder what sorts of reputable doctoral programs you are thinking of? If you are fairly conservative, I don't think you would have a good experience at most of the 'big name' schools, especially in philosophical theology. As you say, if you want to teach at a conservative seminary when you are done, well then you might need a conservative degree to get a job at one of those schools. I know there has been debate on here in the past about conservative schools hiring folks with 'liberal degrees,' so perhaps someone else can chime in who has actual experience with the job market. Really, I think if you go to one of the more liberal schools (even PTS and Duke may be too liberal for you?) you will either 1) become more liberal or 2) become a jaded asshole who turns more conservative (heh)! 

[RichardHooker]

Thanks for the reply. I'm not necessarily interested in how liberal or conservative a seminary or university is; I'm more concerned about diversity of opinion amongst the faculty on that matter. I'm adverse to going to a school that is uniformly liberal and doesn't take conservative evangelicals seriously. However, for an academic degree, ideally I'd be looking for conservative, liberal, post-liberal, etc. theologians and/or philosophers on the faculty. In other words, I don't want to hole up in a conservative echo chamber unless my only other options were to be the lone voice disturbing a liberal echo chamber.

 

As for my GPA, I'm more concerned about it dragging down my post-M.Div doctoral apps than M.Div since I do know that isn't really much of a concern for that level except to cut off the lower end. I just want to keep my expectations and plans grounded in reality instead of pipe dreams of Oxbridge glory.

 

Also, from my limited experience and what I've read online, most conservative seminaries prefer that doctoral-level work be at prestigious schools. There are so few conservative evangelicals who go to those types of programs that evangelical seminaries eat them up from what I've seen. However, they do also prefer M.Div-level work be at conservative seminaries. That's why right now I'm thinking an M.Div at a decent conservative seminary like Westminster and then looking at more well-regarded doctoral or other advanced programs at a more diverse institution is an ideal route.

[sacklunch]

Oxbridge glory is there for pretty much any American that is willing to pay for it (loans). Just surf through the results section and you will see that they don't reject a ton of people. Incidentally I have also heard a lot of conservative folks end up doing their doctoral degrees at Oxbridge because the more conservative places trust that the atmosphere/coursework hasn't tainted them as much as the American programs. Meh. As far as getting a full ride to finish a doctoral degree at one of those UK schools? Seems to be pretty hard (Fulbright, etc.).

I guess if you find faculty that fit that profile go ahead and apply at whatever school they happen to be at, regardless of overall liberalness. Still, I have a feeling you won't be applying to a ton of the big names if that is the criteria (which is a good reason to apply to particular places, I think!). FWIW, I have seen a fair amount of Westminster MDiv grads at good doctoral programs over the years. Also, not sure how well of a fit it would be (again, not in your subfield), but A LOT of people come out of Gordon-Conwell that go on to great PhD programs in my field (Bible). Though, I think that's much because they emphasize biblical languages more than a lot of seminary degrees! I took a class there once, through the BTI, and they did indeed seem to be pretty damn conservative. 

cheers

Edited December 15, 2013 by furtivemode

[marXian]

FWIW, I do know a few people with conservative backgrounds at some big name schools--you just have to go in knowing what to expect and (to make it incredibly cliché) have an open mind.

 

I have some anecdotal evidence from one of those people, a student I met at UChicago, with a similar background to yours. He attended a small, conservative Christian liberal arts college, then got an MDiv at Liberty. He applied to PhD programs and struck out. After corresponding with a few POIs, he realized his conservative background was a hindrance. He was, however, able to get into a reputable philosophy program for an MA. Applied and struck out again for PhD programs but was accepted to UChicago's MAR as a backup. Finally, upon completing that degree, he was admitted to three top programs in theology and is at one of them now.

 

All of this is to say, another degree from Liberty may not help you get into Duke or any top tier program as much as going to a different, more broadly accepted program.

 

Regarding undergrad GPA, I have a 3.17 and am currently at Northwestern. But I also have two MAs, (3.89 and 3.7). Your most recent degrees are what matter most. 

 

Finally, with regard to furtivemode's concern about maybe not being able to get a job at a more conservative school, it really depends on just how conservative we're talking here. Fuller Seminary, for example, has lots of faculty from Duke, and I think a lot of people would consider Fuller conservative--but if you talk to someone from Denver or Dallas Seminary, Fuller is just a bunch of liberal communists! I have a cousin who works at Biola, and he told me they'd love to hire people from top tier schools. The problem, usually, is that most people who go to top tier schools wouldn't be comfortable with signing a conservative school's statement of faith. But if you're a conservative who goes through a top tier program, that probably won't be an issue. Of course, ultra conservative schools (Master's, Moody, tiny bible colleges) would probably look at top tier credentials with suspicion. But those schools are typically rooted in anti-intellectual traditions. You can find plenty of schools on the more conservative-to-middle end of the spectrum that are not part of that.

 

To summarize, you can be more conservative and be successful in a top tier program as long as you're smart about how you navigate through, but you need to demonstrate that your background extends beyond the conservative in order to get in.

Edited December 15, 2013 by marXian

[MBIGrad]

Also, speaking of Europe, Gordon Conwell has a program that funds one of their graduates per year to take on a second MA at St. Andrews. In the same vein, I had an undergrad mentor who had just come from Oxford (and another good friend faculty member from a Cambridge PhD), and they didn't make it sound as though those schools are known for their academic rigor; not that they don't have great facilities and faculty.

 

If you have money, Biola University near LA has a three-year Philosophy of Religion/Ethics MA whose main purpose is to place students into tier 1 PhD programs, and they've done this with hundreds of students over the past ten years. Also, conservative. For what it's worth, I think that learning how to traverse the contours of the academy as a conservative can be a very valuable experience, and only available at non-conservative schools.

[RichardHooker]

Thanks for the advice offered up so far. The reassuring points about GPA are especially helpful, since I had been quite worried about that particular point being a really limiting factor.

On 12/14/2013 at 9:02 PM, marXian said:

I have some anecdotal evidence from one of those people, a student I met at UChicago, with a similar background to yours. He attended a small, conservative Christian liberal arts college, then got an MDiv at Liberty. He applied to PhD programs and struck out. After corresponding with a few POIs, he realized his conservative background was a hindrance. He was, however, able to get into a reputable philosophy program for an MA. Applied and struck out again for PhD programs but was accepted to UChicago's MAR as a backup. Finally, upon completing that degree, he was admitted to three top programs in theology and is at one of them now.

 

All of this is to say, another degree from Liberty may not help you get into Duke or any top tier program as much as going to a different, more broadly accepted program.

 

 

Thanks for the anecdote. The main reasons I would go back are financial and personal. While those might be short-sighted, they can be pretty powerful motivators at a personal level. If I did that, I know that I would basically eliminate any future in the top-tier of academia. I'll weigh that in my final decision, but from what you and the others have told me about GPA and getting into well-regarded programs has definitely shifted things in favor of at least giving that further pursuit.

 

Quote

Finally, with regard to furtivemode's concern about maybe not being able to get a job at a more conservative school, it really depends on just how conservative we're talking here. Fuller Seminary, for example, has lots of faculty from Duke, and I think a lot of people would consider Fuller conservative--but if you talk to someone from Denver or Dallas Seminary, Fuller is just a bunch of liberal communists! I have a cousin who works at Biola, and he told me they'd love to hire people from top tier schools. The problem, usually, is that most people who go to top tier schools wouldn't be comfortable with signing a conservative school's statement of faith. But if you're a conservative who goes through a top tier program, that probably won't be an issue. Of course, ultra conservative schools (Master's, Moody, tiny bible colleges) would probably look at top tier credentials with suspicion. But those schools are typically rooted in anti-intellectual traditions. You can find plenty of schools on the more conservative-to-middle end of the spectrum that are not part of that.

 

 

The ultra-conservative schools you mention are irrelevant because I'm already prevented teaching religion at them. I actually couldn't even teach at my own alma mater for that same reason. Those schools tend to be Fundamentalist Baptists, and are pretty strict about Baptist theology that I do not share. Conservative schools within my theological tradition tend to value intellectual and theological rigor, which, whatever their faults, is offered at the top doctoral programs. Of course, "conservative" and "evangelical" are broad terms that encompass many different traditions that each have their own distinctives about what they consider orthodox.

 

[sacklunch]

You might stop over in the philosophy section and see what they think about getting an MA. Though from what I understand, getting an MA in philosophy at competitive schools is much more difficult. Strange to say, but I'm fairly certain getting into an MA program at Georgia State is harder than getting into HDS, YDS, PTS, and so on. 

 

Also, not sure if it matters, but BC (my alma mater) recently announced a joint MA between philosophy and theology. They are pretty chill with all sorts of people studying there (I'm agnostic), though it's very much not a 'faith environment.' Anyways, programs like that might allow you to get some street cred while maintaining your sanity in the process. 

[RedDoor]

I would avoid going back to Liberty for gradschool. Their M.Div is not accredited by the ATS meaning it will likely not be recognized by PhD programs. Ungrad GPA is necessary for scholarships, but if you're just looking to attend school, you should be fine. Just be honest in your SOP. A year abroad might help prove yourself (frutive mentioned Oxbridge already, great idea IMO).

 

 FWIW, I have seen a fair amount of Westminster MDiv grads at good doctoral programs over the years. Also, not sure how well of a fit it would be (again, not in your subfield), but A LOT of people come out of Gordon-Conwell that go on to great PhD programs in my field (Bible). Though, I think that's much because they emphasize biblical languages more than a lot of seminary degrees! I took a class there once, through the BTI, and they did indeed seem to be pretty damn conservative. 

cheers

 

Gordon-Conwell grad here, it depends on your field. If you're looking to do Old Testament or theology, I would go elsewhere and that pains me to say since I loved the place. The OT faculty are all Meredith Kline clones and the theology department (except for two newer hires) are Machen clones (I don't believe they attend SBL; only ETS if that tells you anything). The languages are excellent as well (as furtive put it). Plus side is that you can take your OT classes at Harvard and actually be prepared to do a PhD if you want to go that route (i'd suggest doing a MA in language and a MA at Harvard).

 

The New Testament department, however, is incredibly diverse. I can't recommend them enough. GCTS has an excellent reputation around the UK programs for producing students with a very high completion rate, which is a big deal.

 

Westminister has the same pros and cons, but they are far more conservative than GCTS and less open-minded (simply because they're denominational).

 

Hope that helps

Edited December 16, 2013 by RedDoor

[RichardHooker]

 

I would avoid going back to Liberty for gradschool. Their M.Div is not accredited by the ATS meaning it will likely not be recognized by PhD programs. Ungrad GPA is necessary for scholarships, but if you're just looking to attend school, you should be fine. Just be honest in your SOP. A year abroad might help prove yourself (frutive mentioned Oxbridge already, great idea IMO).

 

 

I've only considered Liberty for an M.A. in Philosophy, and that's more because I just like the place and the people despite its rather obvious flaws. Even from my standpoint as an alumnus from there, I still think the academics are pretty poor quality, and I can't imagine doing seminary there really. In my undergrad religion program, we sometimes had textbooks that I thought were more appropriate for a Sunday School course than a university setting. I should note, however, that Liberty is in the process of reforming their curriculum to address these problems. This year they came out with a new religion curriculum that is a huge step in the right direction I think. For instance, the M.A. in Philosophy they have used to be a glorified Apologetics degree with only 3 courses in real philosophy, but they've added several real philosophy courses over this past summer. Still not great, but it does make me feel like I might contribute to the alumni foundation and not feel like I'm throwing my money away.

 

 

Gordon-Conwell grad here, it depends on your field. If you're looking to do Old Testament or theology, I would go elsewhere and that pains me to say since I loved the place. The OT faculty are all Meredith Kline clones and the theology department (except for two newer hires) are Machen clones (I don't believe they attend SBL; only ETS if that tells you anything). The languages are excellent as well (as furtive put it). Plus side is that you can take your OT classes at Harvard and actually be prepared to do a PhD if you want to go that route (i'd suggest doing a MA in language and a MA at Harvard).

 

The New Testament department, however, is incredibly diverse. I can't recommend them enough. GCTS has an excellent reputation around the UK programs for producing students with a very high completion rate, which is a big deal.

 

Westminister has the same pros and cons, but they are far more conservative than GCTS and less open-minded (simply because they're denominational).

 

Hope that helps

 

 

I'm surprised to hear that the OT faculty at Gordon-Conwell is full of Meredith Kline clones. I thought that was limited to Westminster California and possibly Covenant. That's especially considering Meredith Kline was a Reformed scholar and GCTS is interdenominational. 

 

Also, I've always thought Westminster was supposed to have relatively good systematic & historical theology departments.

[RedDoor]

I've only considered Liberty for an M.A. in Philosophy, and that's more because I just like the place and the people despite its rather obvious flaws. Even from my standpoint as an alumnus from there, I still think the academics are pretty poor quality, and I can't imagine doing seminary there really. In my undergrad religion program, we sometimes had textbooks that I thought were more appropriate for a Sunday School course than a university setting. I should note, however, that Liberty is in the process of reforming their curriculum to address these problems. This year they came out with a new religion curriculum that is a huge step in the right direction I think. For instance, the M.A. in Philosophy they have used to be a glorified Apologetics degree with only 3 courses in real philosophy, but they've added several real philosophy courses over this past summer. Still not great, but it does make me feel like I might contribute to the alumni foundation and not feel like I'm throwing my money away.

 

 

I'm surprised to hear that the OT faculty at Gordon-Conwell is full of Meredith Kline clones. I thought that was limited to Westminster California and possibly Covenant. That's especially considering Meredith Kline was a Reformed scholar and GCTS is interdenominational. 

 

Also, I've always thought Westminster was supposed to have relatively good systematic & historical theology departments.

 

Believe me, I was equally surprised--I don't come from a reformed background nor did I have much familiarity with it aside from the standard works. Kline was a professor at GCTS for quite some time. He and David Wells have left their reformed mark on GCTS for sure. I do see some signs of a changing of the guard with new hires (an analytic philosophy guy and a legit hermeneutics guy who is non-reformed), but I get the feeling some people want to keep it reformed or bust. The other faculty are quite varied; all are from faith backgrounds, but off the top of my head, I know several Pentecostal, Lutheran, Baptist, Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian professors (some are also pastors/priests). It is unfortunate in my opinion that the theology faculty has not been as varied as the rest of the seminary, but the times are changing as I mentioned. It might be possible to avoid taking classes with the hardnosed reformed profs, just be sure to ask around before registering. It should be noted that inerrancy is in the statement of faith.

 

Westminster has fine faculty for what they are supposed to be; that is, a seminary dedicated to teaching the theological positions of the OPC denomination, typically to pastors or pastor-scholars (notice their sys profs have PhDs from Westminster). I've heard from various people that the quality in theology has gone down hill recently, but I can't confirm that from first hand knowledge. I should also note my circles are PCUSA, so there might be some residual hard feelings there.

 

I'd also what to encourage you to see what consortium the various schools offer. Even though the GCTS theology/OT dept might be down, you can supplement (replace?) those courses with Harvard Div, BC, BU, or any other school in the Boston Theological Institute. I believe Dallas has something similar, and I know that Wheaton students can take classes and U of Chicago, but outside of that I'm unsure. So, be sure to weigh the whole picture (including scholarships!) before accepting.

Edited December 16, 2013 by RedDoor

[RichardHooker]

Believe me, I was equally surprised--I don't come from a reformed background nor did I have much familiarity with it aside from the standard works. Kline was a professor at GCTS for quite some time. He and David Wells have left their reformed mark on GCTS for sure. I do see some signs of a changing of the guard with new hires (an analytic philosophy guy and a legit hermeneutics guy who is non-reformed), but I get the feeling some people want to keep it reformed or bust. The other faculty are quite varied; all are from faith backgrounds, but off the top of my head, I know several Pentecostal, Lutheran, Baptist, Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, and Episcopalian professors (some are also pastors/priests). It is unfortunate in my opinion that the theology faculty has not been as varied as the rest of the seminary, but the times are changing as I mentioned. It might be possible to avoid taking classes with the hardnosed reformed profs, just be sure to ask around before registering. It should be noted that inerrancy is in the statement of faith.

 

Westminster has fine faculty for what they are supposed to be; that is, a seminary dedicated to teaching the theological positions of the OPC denomination, typically to pastors or pastor-scholars (notice their sys profs have PhDs from Westminster). I've heard from various people that the quality in theology has gone down hill recently, but I can't confirm that from first hand knowledge. I should also note my circles are PCUSA, so there might be some residual hard feelings there.

 

I'd also what to encourage you to see what consortium the various schools offer. Even though the GCTS theology/OT dept might be down, you can supplement (replace?) those courses with Harvard Div, BC, BU, or any other school in the Boston Theological Institute. I believe Dallas has something similar, and I know that Wheaton students can take classes and U of Chicago, but outside of that I'm unsure. So, be sure to weigh the whole picture (including scholarships!) before accepting.

 

Thanks for the insight. As I personally am generally "Reformed" in my theology, I don't really mind if they have a significant presence around. Considering I've learned mostly under non-Reformed folks, I would like to take at least a few classes under Reformed professors since my only exposure to the academic side of Reformed theology is through my personal reading and the bashing they receive from Liberty Profs. 

 

Part of my dilemma is not I'm not sure if I want to take the "Pastor-Scholar" route or if I want to focus more on the scholarly end of things, with ordained ministry as a secondary focus. Of course, that's a personal decision. If I take the Pastor-Scholar route, I would obviously lean toward picking something closer in doctrine and be more concerned about helping to train other Pastor-Scholars and lay people within my own tradition than contributing to the wider world of Christian scholarship. Taking a more scholarly approach, I'd need a broader education so I could interact on a scholarly level with people of other traditions, whether they be Christian or not. 

 

Right now I'm really appreciative of the fact that people here have said Oxford, Cambridge, and other UK colleges aren't out of reach, because it seemed as if they were to me. Those seem to have most of what I'm looking for in a program. I really like the multiple college and religious halls system in place at the British universities. You can go to a hall that shares your tradition while at the same time being exposed to other viewpoints, secular and religious, as part of the wider university. I'm not sure how well that works in practice, but it sounds great in theory.

[marXian]

Thanks for the insight. As I personally am generally "Reformed" in my theology, I don't really mind if they have a significant presence around. Considering I've learned mostly under non-Reformed folks, I would like to take at least a few classes under Reformed professors since my only exposure to the academic side of Reformed theology is through my personal reading and the bashing they receive from Liberty Profs. 

 

Wait... I though Liberty was reformed...? This is kind of blowing my mind. I mean, their doctrinal statement is pretty generic; there's an inerrancy bit, but other than that, not much that screams Reformed evangelical... and I know not all evangelicals are necessarily Reformed, even broadly speaking, but most definitely are (at least in my experience.) I'm really more curious than anything else--what do you consider Liberty to be?

[RichardHooker]

Wait... I though Liberty was reformed...? This is kind of blowing my mind. I mean, their doctrinal statement is pretty generic; there's an inerrancy bit, but other than that, not much that screams Reformed evangelical... and I know not all evangelicals are necessarily Reformed, even broadly speaking, but most definitely are (at least in my experience.) I'm really more curious than anything else--what do you consider Liberty to be?

 

They are Arminian Baptist with a few Calvinistic profs, but none that are 5-pointers to my knowledge (I've heard a couple of Church History Prof might be). Whether they are Reformed or not depends on how you define the term, but I don't think many people that are Reformed would consider them to be. I'm using the term to mean 5-point Calvinists who are not Dispenationalist in theology.

[marXian]

They are Arminian Baptist with a few Calvinistic profs, but none that are 5-pointers to my knowledge (I've heard a couple of Church History Prof might be). Whether they are Reformed or not depends on how you define the term, but I don't think many people that are Reformed would consider them to be. I'm using the term to mean 5-point Calvinists who are not Dispenationalist in theology.

 

Very conservative Calvinists, the ones who are usually staunch five-pointers, are quite often also dispensationalists, but dispensationalism isn't necessarily a marker of Reformed or Arminian theology. I'm really surprised to hear that most profs at Liberty are Arminian. Learn something new every day!

[axiomness]

Hello RichardHooker,

 

From what others have stated, yes, I think your biggest hurdle isn't your GPA, but your being from Liberty (as justified or unjustified as that may be). I'm pretty familiar with Liberty, their Phil head was a PhD in my department (I read his dissertation last year in a seminar on the Problem of Evil), my younger sister attends there, and my father is a D.Div. alum from there (and about the arminianism--that surprises me quite a bit. From my understandings the vast majority of theology professors there are calvinist dispensationalist, like Dallas but even more conservative).

 

Being "conservative Anglican", and interested in Philosophical Theology (what I am also going into, though I am more interested in the academic arena), I would recommend Yale Divinity, if you can get in with some funding. Like others have stated above--divinity schools are way easier to get into than good philosophy MA programs, especially good MA programs (like Miami's competitive funded program). Also, if you want to move on from there, having a more broadly accepted name on your CV will help as well. Paul Griffiths at Duke is incredible, but he is a mildly conservative (yet post Vat II) Catholic--pick up his Apology for Apologetics to pick up how serious he is about some issues. 

 

One issue you might have is that Yale's program is more considered "analytic" than not, especially with John Hare heading the Philosophical Theology programs (in both the Divinity school and Religion & Philosophy programs)--but I don't know where your philosophical inclinations lie on that scale. 

 

Are you thinking of Calvin or TEDS? They have some great scholars on the conservative side who do some philosophical theology.

[RichardHooker]

Hello RichardHooker,

 

From what others have stated, yes, I think your biggest hurdle isn't your GPA, but your being from Liberty (as justified or unjustified as that may be). I'm pretty familiar with Liberty, their Phil head was a PhD in my department (I read his dissertation last year in a seminar on the Problem of Evil), my younger sister attends there, and my father is a D.Div. alum from there (and about the arminianism--that surprises me quite a bit. From my understandings the vast majority of theology professors there are calvinist dispensationalist, like Dallas but even more conservative).

 

Being "conservative Anglican", and interested in Philosophical Theology (what I am also going into, though I am more interested in the academic arena), I would recommend Yale Divinity, if you can get in with some funding. Like others have stated above--divinity schools are way easier to get into than good philosophy MA programs, especially good MA programs (like Miami's competitive funded program). Also, if you want to move on from there, having a more broadly accepted name on your CV will help as well. Paul Griffiths at Duke is incredible, but he is a mildly conservative (yet post Vat II) Catholic--pick up his Apology for Apologetics to pick up how serious he is about some issues. 

 

One issue you might have is that Yale's program is more considered "analytic" than not, especially with John Hare heading the Philosophical Theology programs (in both the Divinity school and Religion & Philosophy programs)--but I don't know where your philosophical inclinations lie on that scale. 

 

Are you thinking of Calvin or TEDS? They have some great scholars on the conservative side who do some philosophical theology.

 

I'm not sure about overall in the theology department, but "Calvinistic" is a pretty liberal term at Liberty. If you believe in more of the "5 points" than just perseverance, and you emphasize them, then you are "Calvinistic." Furthermore, most of your classes in most religion majors (even more theology-based majors) are with the Bible department, and they are solidly Arminian with little exception. My statement was a bit of hyperbole, since Liberty isn't universally hostile to Calvinists, but our two main founders (the later Dr. Falwell and the recently retired Elmer Towns) were both converts from Calvinism to Arminianism, and they made it known they were opposed.

 

I haven't really looked at TEDS until you mentioned it, and I'm not that interested in Calvin. However, it looks like TEDS is worth taking a look at since it has a built "Research Ministry" track where you write two "major research papers" (=thesis?). Right now, the other major programs I'm looking at are Duke, Beeson, and Gordon-Conwell. I've also run across the Toronto School of Theology with its seven constituent colleges, including an evangelical Anglican school (Wycliffe College), so if anybody has an opinion about it or its constituent colleges that would be great.

[axiomness]

Ah, that clears things up a bit. I was being (very) loose with terminology and considering "Arminian" to mean one who affirms the possibility of fallen grace, not in terms of the necessary and sufficient cause(s) of salvation (viz., human or divine action or certain degrees of both)--that spectrum is quite broad in both camps. (As the Princeton school has argued well for though, It all is tied together...) I thought that Falwell was an Amyraldist--one who believes in the perseverance of the saints, etc. but wants to assert unlimited atonement (which seems to be the right view to hold given his hermeneutic).

 

TEDS has some great people, especially Kevin VanHoozer in systematics. I don't know much about Toronto, I was going to apply to Wycliffe originally but decided against it (funding is tough, and the $110 application fee is insane, too). I really like Prof. Radner, and Prof. Mangina has a really neat approach to Barth. 

Edited December 20, 2013 by axiomness

[RichardHooker]

Ah, that clears things up a bit. I was being (very) loose with terminology and considering "Arminian" to mean one who affirms the possibility of fallen grace, not in terms of the necessary and sufficient cause(s) of salvation (viz., human or divine action or certain degrees of both)--that spectrum is quite broad in both camps. (As the Princeton school has argued well for though, It all is tied together...) I thought that Falwell was an Amyraldist--one who believes in the perseverance of the saints, etc. but wants to assert unlimited atonement (which seems to be the right view to hold given his hermeneutic).

 

TEDS has some great people, especially Kevin VanHoozer in systematics. I don't know much about Toronto, I was going to apply to Wycliffe originally but decided against it (funding is tough, and the $110 application fee is insane, too). I really like Prof. Radner, and Prof. Mangina has a really neat approach to Barth. 

 

Falwell still held to Perseverance (I think you have to believe in perseverance to teach religion at Liberty), but not any of the other 5 points. My upper-level theology professor was borderline Amyraldian. I must say, he is one of the fairest presenter of theological issues I've ever met, so you had to wait for him to end his lecture with his "this is just my opinion, but I think..." to figure out what he thought about an issue.

 

I hadn't noticed that it was that much to apply to Wycliffe. I noticed it had pretty high tuition, is in Toronto, and I hadn't really run across it that much before, so it wasn't tops anyway.

 

Right now I'm thinking I'm going to some place more conservative (TEDS, GCTS, Beeson, etc.) for my M.Div and then getting a Th.M or STM at Yale, Duke, or similar school before going for my doctorate. I think I might need that extra year of preparation anyway.

[matthewadam22]

RichardHooker, if you are a conservative Anglican, I really think you ought to at least apply to Wycliffe. It could be a pretty enjoyable and formative experience to study with a group of scholars committed to the same sort of academic and ecclessial project as yourself. The school is pretty well known in the broader moderate/conservative theological scene. I know two professors at schools as conservative as Moody with their PhD's from Toronto School of Theology (residents at Wycliffe), yet it is also more broadly respected. See the First Things (a publication very sympathetic to the conservative Anglican agenda) article rating Doctoral program's in theology here... http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/11/ranking-theology-programs

[RichardHooker]

RichardHooker, if you are a conservative Anglican, I really think you ought to at least apply to Wycliffe. It could be a pretty enjoyable and formative experience to study with a group of scholars committed to the same sort of academic and ecclessial project as yourself. The school is pretty well known in the broader moderate/conservative theological scene. I know two professors at schools as conservative as Moody with their PhD's from Toronto School of Theology (residents at Wycliffe), yet it is also more broadly respected. See the First Things (a publication very sympathetic to the conservative Anglican agenda) article rating Doctoral program's in theology here... http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/11/ranking-theology-programs

 

That article was what had me looking them up. I thought I had found pretty much what I was looking for when I found them, but I'm just not sure if they are worth the tuition that it appears I'd be paying over and against the vast majority of American programs I'm looking at right now. They might be worth it for a doctroral program, especially since there are more financial aid opportunities, but for an M.Div I'm less convinced.

[sacklunch]

This also might be helpful, though in religion/religious studies: 

http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/

[RichardHooker]

This also might be helpful, though in religion/religious studies: 

http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/

 

Thanks for the link. Thanks also for everyone that's contributed to the thread and in messages. It's really helped me evaluate a lot of the different programs out there on their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Part of the problem for me in choosing schools at the graduate level is my broad interests. Once you get to the graduate/professional school level, you're supposed to settle down and become an "expert" in some specific discipline or embark on a specific career path. This is reflected in the fact that most schools have awesome faculties for one philosophical or theological subject or school-of-thought, but might not even be on the radar in a majority of other fields.

 

I have a general idea of where I want to go, but I haven't nailed it down yet. Where and in what exactly I ultimately get my doctorate (assuming I get that far) will depend a lot on how I evaluate my goals after seminary.