Taking Extra Classes

[nnnnnnn]

I somehow flubbed my way into grad school and, even more surprisingly, funding. Well, this is all well and good, and people tell me I should just worry about my research at this point...

 

But dammit, I want to take classes!

 

I like learning. I like an environment of lecture, reading, and study. And I like being able to say "yes, this experiment is important, but so is this class and this homework that's due creates a mini deadline to make sure my learning stays on track".

 

My adviser seems bent on preventing me from taking anymore classes while I'm here. He keeps pushing me to audit. Or he'll say I can take a class and then find ways to delay and eventually deny me. I am making decent progress on my research, and since I'm independently funded, it seems I should have some say about how I get to spend my time.

 

What to do?

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Just curious, are you taking any classes at all or only doing research? I'm curious because you only mentioned research. And are these classes you want to take additional non-required classes in your field of study or just some random undergrad classes that interest you? 

 

P.S. Flubbed is a fun word. 

Edited January 25, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[St Andrews Lynx]

If you like learning, can't you incorporate it into your research? I find the act of learning about a new sub-field of research, surveying the literature, problem-solving my reactions (why is it that this species isn't behaving in the way it ought to?) and maybe doing some background digging on the theory behind a new instrument is all very stimulating and teaches me a lot. In fact it teaches me stuff better than most classes could!

 

If you really enjoy attending classes, then take a second undergraduate degree or something. A PhD or Masters is about getting out of the classroom and focussing on research. While it is your own money, you want to convince your PI that you are serious about the research project they've assigned you to do. Come across as too interested in classes and they'll think your heart isn't in the project, or that you will be too preoccupied to make satisfactory progress.

[Monochrome Spring]

You also have the option of taking classes through sites like Coursera, if you just want to learn and to have mini assignments. The benefit of something like that is that if you fall behind at your university, there really is no commitment to finish the course, and you won't be stuck with multiple commitments.

[Eigen]

Also note that, depending on exactly how your funding plays out, even through your stipend is getting paid your department usually has to pay tuition for all the side courses you take. 

 

It's a behind the scenes thing, but it does transfer money (usually) from your department to the school. So while it's great to take classes, unless you can make a strong case for why they're relevant to your research, it's probably not in your programs financial interest for you to actually take them. 

 

Auditing or sitting in, on the other hand, doesn't carry the same financial burden. And it shouldn't be any less structured for you. Just do all the assignments everyone else does. 

[TakeruK]

I agree with Eigen that unless you are 100% externally funded (i.e. your outside fellowship pays 100% of your tuition, fees, and a stipend) and that your tuition is a flat rate, not based on the number of courses you're enrolled in, then it's possible that taking additional courses does represent an addition expense to your department/advisor. Also, some fellowships will pay a certain amount but also require a certain amount to come from the school too. In addition, your cost to your advisor/department is not just money--it's the time they spend advising you and the costs of operating a lab/research group/overhead costs of having a graduate student.

 

Also, I agree with St Andrews Lynx in that the purpose of a PhD is to develop your research ability and independent learning through research work, not necessarily to take more classes and further your education. It's not really the purpose of the PhD to allow you to take as many graduate courses as you wish just to learn more. Put another way, I would say that while courses are meant to teach us things that others already learned, research is meant for us to learn new things not known before. While undergraduate and the foundation courses of a PhD is intended to give us the former, the true purpose/training of a PhD student is to accomplish the latter.

 

That said, I do agree that grad students should be able to take some "extra" courses if they wish. Lifelong learning is important and valuable. From your post (which is only one point of view, of course), it does sound like your advisor is being a little unreasonable in how much they do to really prevent you from taking further courses. You have a valid point that you should be able to take courses if you want to, as long as they don't interfere with how much work you are expected to do as a PhD student. It is unreasonable for your advisor/department to expect you to spend all your energy solely on research (or resting to perform more research later). But, that being unreasonable doesn't mean that it won't happen!

 

In my opinion, I would say that a graduate student should generally have the right to take a very limited number of additional courses (or do other extra activities not related to research, whether it's on campus or not) if it does not cost the department any additional money for tuition etc., even though it is not the intention of the PhD program to provide more coursework for its students. Like the OP said, if they are progressing in research, they should be able to spend the extra time on official courses if they want (as long as there is no extra cost--but I find it strange that the department/advisor would not just tell the student up front that their tuition waiver won't cover non-essential courses). Graduate students are more than just research machines--we don't have to optimize our every action to make as much research progress as possible.

 

(**Here I am assuming that everyone is being reasonable and we're not taking the extreme case where the student neglects all research for coursework, but in the case where the student puts as much effort/time into research as they would have without courses and spends their free time doing courses, instead of trading out research time for courses**)

 

But in the OP's shoes, I'm not sure it's really worth it to fight to take these courses officially. It seems like you can get just as much benefit out of these courses by just auditing, unless you are planning to get a minor in another field or something (which would require official permission!). Or maybe you want these courses to officially show on your transcript for future job applications? Otherwise, like Eigen said, you can still officially "audit" a course but put as much real effort and time into the course as if you were taking it for real. Your status in some university database should not affect your ability to learn in a course (unless at your school, auditing means that your work won't be graded and you won't get feedback etc.)

[fuzzylogician]

I'd do as your advisor says -- audit courses if you really want to take something, but don't commit to being a full time student in classes you don't need for your degree. I appreciate the will to study more, but the PhD is about learning to become an independent researcher and producing results, not about doing well in class. If there is a specific topic you want to know more about, pick up a book or article and start reading. Talk to people. Get started on a project that involves this topic. If you want to have a career as a researcher, those will be important skills to have, and now is the time to develop them. It may be more difficult to study by yourself than have someone prepare the materials for you, but you're going to need to be able to teach yourself things sooner or later - both if you become a professor and teach your own classes, and if you go into a research position in industry. At some point, there won't be anyone to spoon-feed you information, and you need to take care of your own learning. 

[nnnnnnn]

I dunno if it's too late to respond to this. But I ended up taking the course, loving it, and doing well. I learned about a lot of backround theory that now allows me to view my research from another perspective with possible new applications. That said, my adviser sent me in numerous loops, promising me one thing only to change his mind later...it was a mess.

 

To comment on some of the items mentioned above. Part of the reason why I want to take more courses (and really, I'm talking 1 class a quarter at most, I don't think I'm asking a lot here) is because I feel I lack the background for a lot of the research I'm doing (to the point where others will tell me "you never learned about [insert topic]? really?"). I'm confident that as I run into a specific research-related problem, I can use my brains, existing literature, and (let's be honest) the internet to figure things out...get the right equation...yaddayadda. But I feel like I'm missing a part of the story. And I feel like when I talk to my colleagues, I don't want to always be nodding at what they say while making mental notes on what parts of our conversation I'll need to google later.

 

I'm no computer science major, and I learned enough C++ from stackoverflow on my own to hack a commercial data logging unit to apply to my niche project. So please don't lecture me about needing to be spoon-fed information. I don't really think thriving in a classroom setting is equivalent with being incapable of self-learning or do-learning.

 

And lastly, skipping over a lot of details... it's not a financial issue.

 

But I agree with y'all that I should pick my battles and this isn't worth it...so auditing it is.

[PhDerp]

So please don't lecture me about needing to be spoon-fed information.

 

> comes to forum asking for advice

> complains when people give advice

[bsharpe269]

Auditing is a decent option but I would say that just buying the textbook that the class is using and going through the info on your own is an even better option. Then you can learn the exact same information without having to do the problems that are irrelevent and you can save time by not having to come to class etc. You learn the exact same info in less time!

 

I think the reason people say you need to be spoon fed the information is because you should be able to buy a book and learn like this instead of having to sit through a professor explaining everything (ie spoonfeeding).

 

Everyone has gaps in their education... Thats normal and fine! My statistics teacher just said the other day that he has never taken linear algebra even... yet he uses it in his teaching. He taught it to himself! I have never taken orgranic chemistry and I basically do chemistry research and will be applying to some biochem phd programs. A gap in class work isnt an issue if you can buy the book and go through it on your own. I understand orgranic chemistry as well as anyone else who has taken the classes since I went through a few text books.

 

Edit: I also wanted to add that everyone learns better from a class than on their own because its easier and you get lots of help. As a professor you cant do that though. The expectation of grad students isnt that they learn linear algebra all on their own of course... but that is the expectation of a professor. The expectation of grad students is that they start working towards that, meaning they go through the book on their own and when they get stuck, they have a department full of professors to help. Trying to learn on your own, getting frustrated, working through it is the only way to become an independent reseracher.

Edited April 10, 2014 by bsharpe269

[nnnnnnn]

> comes to forum asking for advice

> complains when people give advice

  

Somehow, I figured people would be more supportive and less judgmental here.

 

I think there is a limited time during which you are lucky enough to have classes to stimulate your learning, so I'd like to make the most of it.

[fuzzylogician]

Somehow, I figured people would be more supportive and less judgmental here.

Unless judgmental = didn't say what you wanted to hear, no one here was judgmental or unsupportive. People wrote long thoughtful posts about why they think there is a time to start taking less classes and do more research. That's a perfectly valid opinion, even if it wasn't what you wanted to hear.

 

 

I think there is a limited time during which you are lucky enough to have classes to stimulate your learning, so I'd like to make the most of it.

True, but the thing is, there are always too many things happening now that you may not have access to later. You have to pick and choose and as was already discussed above, at some point rather early you need to concentrate more on research and less on classes. 

 

That said, I'm glad you enjoyed your class. You're right that there aren't going to be lots more chances to take classes now, so it's great that you could make the most of it. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Auditing is a decent option but I would say that just buying the textbook that the class is using and going through the info on your own is an even better option. Then you can learn the exact same information without having to do the problems that are irrelevent and you can save time by not having to come to class etc. You learn the exact same info in less time!

 

I think the reason people say you need to be spoon fed the information is because you should be able to buy a book and learn like this instead of having to sit through a professor explaining everything (ie spoonfeeding).

 

Everyone has gaps in their education... Thats normal and fine! My statistics teacher just said the other day that he has never taken linear algebra even... yet he uses it in his teaching. He taught it to himself! I have never taken orgranic chemistry and I basically do chemistry research and will be applying to some biochem phd programs. A gap in class work isnt an issue if you can buy the book and go through it on your own. I understand orgranic chemistry as well as anyone else who has taken the classes since I went through a few text books.

 

Edit: I also wanted to add that everyone learns better from a class than on their own because its easier and you get lots of help. As a professor you cant do that though. The expectation of grad students isnt that they learn linear algebra all on their own of course... but that is the expectation of a professor. The expectation of grad students is that they start working towards that, meaning they go through the book on their own and when they get stuck, they have a department full of professors to help. Trying to learn on your own, getting frustrated, working through it is the only way to become an independent reseracher.

I totally agree. I'm in a similar situation. I'm wrapping up my undergrad in 2 weeks and starting a MS in the fall. My MS degree depends on knowledge of computer science and ability to program. Up until a year ago, I didn't know what the hell C++ was. I crammed an entire computer science minor into a year while taking all my math prereqs, but obviously there is a lot of knowledge I am still missing, like analyzing algorithms, advanced data structures, optimizing searches, etc. Sure, I'd love to spend another year in undergrad and get the BS, but I've been in undergrad for 6 damn years and I'm ready to start grad school already. So I'll be spending the summer catching up on gaps in my knowledge by 1) buying and reading the textbooks for classes I would have taken if I got the BS, 2) taking some free online classes from sites like Coursea, and 3) becoming best friends with Google and StackOverflow. 

[juilletmercredi]

Classes are the least important part of PhD work.  And there are more ways to learn than to be in class.  One of the things you are in a PhD program for is to learn how to learn in different ways - you're not always going to be able to take a class to learn things, so sometimes you need to read extensively on your own or run an experiment or write a paper.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable for an advisor to prevent a student from taking unnecessary course work.  Expense aside, any time that's not spent in the classroom on required classes should be spent on doing research.  Ultimately, it's going to be research productivity that gets you a job, not which classes you've taken.  Of course, I think a good advisor should be upfront telling a student that - and by necessary classes I mean things that are necessary for research and the program.  For example, an advanced statistics class may not be required, but may be interesting and useful for research.  Or the student may have a secondary inerest in basketweaving in green reeds and so she takes a class in that; even though her main research is weaving with yellow straw, she wants to develop expertise in this other area.

But generally speaking if you can avoid taking more than 2-3 courses a semester, you should!

And I feel like when I talk to my colleagues, I don't want to always be nodding at what they say while making mental notes on what parts of our conversation I'll need to google later.

Everyone feels like this in the beginning of a doctoral program.  You're supposed to.  You don't know everything; there are always gaps to fill.  Heck, you may even feel like that about certain topics towards the end, too.  I have conversations with other folks who do drug abuse research and often come away with recommendations.  It's impossible for one person to know ALL the vast literature in a specific field, so you will always be making notes on new stuff to Google or read later.  The point is, though, that you're at the place in your career where you're supposed to begin filling in gaps with independent reading and research, not coursework.  I think that's the message your advisor is trying to put across to you.

[rising_star]

It really depends on what the classes are. I took "extra" classes (well, I didn't know they were extra at the time) that were relevant to my research and helped me develop the background needed to understand some of the articles in my highly interdisciplinary research area. Could I have learned it all by reading the textbook on my own? Sure, I guess. But, I took the courses instead and got to learn a lot more than what was in the book. The other area where classes are useful is when they are language courses. Languages, especially the speaking and comprehension part, can be difficult to learn on your own.

[victorydance]

I thought (maybe I am wrong) that traditionally Ph.D. programs are quite segregated in terms of classes vs. research. I was under the assumption that you do two years of coursework, mostly methods training classes, pass your comps and then move on to research. Obviously there is some overlap, considering you should be preparing your research questions and prospectus ahead of time.

 

But I thought it was like "here's two years to beef up your methodological and analytic skills, then go do your dissertation and research with those skills."

[TakeruK]

I thought (maybe I am wrong) that traditionally Ph.D. programs are quite segregated in terms of classes vs. research. I was under the assumption that you do two years of coursework, mostly methods training classes, pass your comps and then move on to research. Obviously there is some overlap, considering you should be preparing your research questions and prospectus ahead of time.

 

But I thought it was like "here's two years to beef up your methodological and analytic skills, then go do your dissertation and research with those skills."

 

In my program, we do almost all the classes in year one but at the same time, do two research projects. At the end of year one, we have an oral qualifying exam where we defend these two projects. The focus of the exam is on our research and the goal is to determine whether we have what it takes to finish the research required for a PhD. We will be expected to know stuff from the classes as it relates to our projects, but there is no direct testing of fundamentals. We have no other exams, written or otherwise, until our final defense. So I would say that in my program, we are definitely expected to spend a lot of time on both classes and research in year one and then transition to pure research by year three. But I would say this is something that depends on the program a lot--just giving an example that is not what you described