Why people quit...

[Loric]

With pretty much everyone on this forum wanting to get into grad school.. it is inevitable that there's some misunderstanding as to why people quit graduate programs.

 

Well, I dragged this out of the Philosophy forum for your reading pleasure:

 

http://www.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/attached-files/APA%20Report%20document.pdf

 

Things got so bad that the department stopped admissions for this year while they try to hash things out. But what about the appearance on the outside and before the report was made public? People were fighting to get in. It was seen - and is still seen, per the report - as providing a great level of education. It's just, ya know, an environment that's hostile and harassment filled.

 

That's just one of the many reasons people quit.

 

I quit my first grad school because there was shouting and screaming and unprofessional behavior and expectations to attend events in my free non-business time and socialize with professors whether I wanted to or not.. alcohol.. throwing things.. shouting.. etc.. and I had no idea how RA/TA-ships were allocated and had no idea how teaching positions were distributed despite having one either.

 

I know a lot of people on this forum are going to look at what happened in Colorado at the Philosophy department and think "gee.. that's a bad situation, but a one off, and I'm sure my school will be fine... because of XYZ.. rationalize.. rationalize.." etc..

 

There's a lot of little Colorados out there that are ticking timebombs of ruined careers. Get to know the schools you're applying to and really do your best to feel them out. You can't avoid these things entirely, but you also need to remain empowered if they do occur. Speak up, report things that aren't right, and don't cater to a culture that is unprofessional in your workplace and place of education. 

 

There's a thread on the forum where a person asked if they should seek out a formal means to report a professor who dropped them mid-thesis with little excuse and little help to even find a new advisor. The reply from these forums? "oh, consider your future and career before you go and report anyone for any wrongdoing."

 

That's not the right approach. That's retaliation and should be completely unacceptable under any good University's policies. If the professor really did something wrong (which is up to the people assigned to making such decisions, not you) and there's a way and a venue to report a claim - it should be reported. Not swept under the rug.

 

In my case I had a "meeting" with the professor who was causing the problem, thinking I was being a mature adult and handling the issue - where my advisor was asking (demanding) me to do things that were blatantly against the University policies. I brought a copy of the handbook and cited how what was going on was wrong and needed to be corrected. I was told "It's grad school, suck it up, everyone has to do this sort of thing."

 

I quit within 48 hours of that failed meeting due to a series of stressful event (even a car accident for good measure!) and a complete lack of faith in the school and it's systems. I see people dreaming of getting in and posting rampantly on here about their hopes and aspirations and how it's their top pick. Yikes, if only they knew. I've done my best to PM a few people and gently/rationally voice my concerns, but I can't catch them all, you know? And not everyone will listen.

 

Often it's seen as the bitter rambling of a "failed student" - no, seriously, I quit. I was called by the department chair and dean and begged to come back. They didn't want to lose me.

 

And on top of all that, I've had it said to myself and seen it implied to others on this forum that people are somehow 'lesser' for quitting a program that is so screwed up. That's wrong too. Stop doing it, stop posting those things.  I know you want to get into graduate school and you've built it up as some grand dream.. but the reality is that some programs - even reportedly "good" ones (see: Colorado) - can be absolute awful situations for a graduate and should really be avoided until they correct their ways. 

Edited February 1, 2014 by Loric

[LittleDarlings]

I think it takes courage to leave a program that isn't working for you.  Someone made a post about hating grad school and got so much crap and I felt bad. I mean I guess you never know until you try and if the program isn't helping you then you should leave and go somewhere that is better fit.  I wouldn't stay in a hot mess program. 

[eriatarka]

This is a very good point, Loric. While I am still an undergrad (albeit an older one), and I am looking forward to grad school, my enthusiasm has been tempered somewhat by witnessing a similar situation.

When one of my closest friends was a grad student, this person was at the center of what became a departmental controversy based on trumped-up accusations. The rumor mill was in full-force, effectively dividing the graduate students & the faculty into opposing camps. I have heard that it has since calmed down, but apparently some of the tension still exists. My friend (who is extremely knowledgeable about their field and spent many years creating an excellent CV) was absolutely distraught about the possibility of having to give up their dream due to politics, in addition to possibly having their professional reputation ruined.

It's such a terrible spot to be in, and I'm sorry to hear about your bad experiences Loric. Hopefully the next department you attend will be a vast improvement, and I wish you luck.

Edited February 1, 2014 by eriatarka

[Loric]

Well the problem is the mentality among current students, who later become professors and people on the adcom, that anyone who quits is a "quitter" in the couldn't-cut-it sense. So if you leave, often there's no way to go back and try again.

 

That really shouldnt be the case, but sadly it is.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Well the problem is the mentality among current students, who later become professors and people on the adcom, that anyone who quits is a "quitter" in the couldn't-cut-it sense. So if you leave, often there's no way to go back and try again.

 

That really shouldnt be the case, but sadly it is.

 

I feel you on that. The truth is, people are unique and someone can't be expected to fit into any and every man-made role in life. Academia is a man-made role. It suits some people perfectly and others not so much. Some of the greatest minds had to get the hell out of academia before they could thrive. Some people are lost souls in the "real world" and prodigies in academia. Everyone is different. I joined the military at 17. It just wasn't for me. I always got in trouble. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just quitting. You're bound by contract. But they let you know that you're a bad solider and probably a bad person. They make you think that if you can't cut it in the military world, you damn sure can't cut it in the civilian world. Fortunately I can think for myself and I never let their words get to me. When I got out, I worked construction for a year and some months before trying my hand at school. And let me tell you, as someone who did horribly in high school, I was never better at anything than I was at being a college student. Now, maybe I just had a bad experience in the military and maybe I would've done fine in a different base/branch/job/state/country. And maybe I got lucky in college and would've done shitty in a different field/school/state/country etc. My point is, not everything works out perfectly the first time. You're bound to have some bad fits. It doesn't say anything bad about yourself or about the program/school. It just says something bad about your match. Look for a better match. The problem is, when people realize they're a bad match, they start to believe that they're a bad researcher/student/academic etc. Don't let one bad experience mess with your head. 

[Jasmineflower]

Hey Gnome, I was just reading this thread out of random curiosity but I wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your experiences and providing such valuable insights.  I really appreciated your post and hope lots of folks will read it and take it to heart.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Hey Gnome, I was just reading this thread out of random curiosity but I wanted to say thank you so much for sharing your experiences and providing such valuable insights.  I really appreciated your post and hope lots of folks will read it and take it to heart.

Appreciate the appreciation.

[overworkedta]

This is a great post.

 

I think it's really harsh to call someone a "quitter" because they left or decided to transfer or just get a masters but I have seen people do it - awful people but still people.  Every department and every subject will not work for every student - some of even the best students just don't want to do 5+ years of this stuff.  The most brilliant person in my cohort took a Masters here, moved on to an Ivy, and now works for the government making bank and being happy.  He determined he didn't want to go on for the PhD because he didn't like academia enough to stay.  He is no very, very pleased with that choice.

 

I have seen people struggle because they just don't know what else to do.  I have a friend who may never finish his dissertation because he's simply not motivated.  Is he smart?  Yes!  Absolutely!  Is he dedicated?  Not really.  His heart is NOT in it at this point.  He never wanted to do a PhD but decided to stick it out because the market was bad for MA students in his discipline.  Now, he isn't sure what to do.

 

It takes courage to know you don't want something.  It takes strength to move on.  And, really, if an adcomm or hiring committee doesn't like that you left x program, that's their problem.  A guy from one of the top institutions in my discipline was here a couple of weeks ago and informed us that, yes, these programs know who the "hot messes" of the discipline are and tend to be pretty understanding about transfers or people fleeing one TT appointment to another.  So, have no fear, it's not the end of the world.

[juilletmercredi]

Well the problem is the mentality among current students, who later become professors and people on the adcom, that anyone who quits is a "quitter" in the couldn't-cut-it sense. So if you leave, often there's no way to go back and try again.

 

Who are these current students, though?  You can't generalize across students or faculty really.  I've known faculty to be really supportive of students who leave programs and I've known faculty who have been horrible, and everywhere in-between.  Same with students.

 

I have also not seen it implied that students who are thinking of leaving are "lesser" for doing so.  In fact, what I've generally seen is that students have been overwhelmingly supportive of students who come here saying that they are thinking about quitting their programs.

 

I also don't see what's so bad about professors expecting you to show up to brown bags, lectures, socializing events, etc.  That's standard in every career, not just academia - it's called networking.  That's how you form connections and get jobs.

 

Otherwise, I do agree that many graduate students quit graduate school because their departments are toxic snake pits.  Academic departmental politics can be more vitriolic than corporate ones, often because academics sometimes think of themselves as "above" silly things like money and free time and view being a professor not as a career but as a vocation, like a call to the ministry.  I just have to roll my eyes - I like research and I like teaching, but I do it because I want to feed myself and my family, not because I think the Spirit of Higher Education called me to this.  But a lot of the pettiness I've seen in departments happens because some academics have giant egos.

 

But lots of people quit other kinds of jobs because their workplaces are toxic, too.  That's not exclusive to academia.