Rankings: How Important Are They?

[Kamisha]

I’m interested in hearing any all all takes on this because I’ve heard so many different opinions from faculty: how important is it to attend a highly ranked school?

 

Here are the takes of some faculty members at my undergrad and MA institutions, as well as folks that I’ve met at conferences:

• Ranking is everything. If you’re not in the Top 50, you’re not getting a job.
• Ranking is everything. If you’re not coming from an Ivy or a “Public Ivy,” you’re not getting a job. 
• Big names matter and rankings matter little; the latter changes so often that it is largely the prestige of the university as a whole, not the individual department, that matters to a hiring committee.
• Hiring committees know that strong applicants exist in all ranked schools. As long as you aren’t attending an unranked university, you are fine.
• Rankings are secondary to ability. Hiring committees look for people who can teach, write, publish, and speak with intelligence and will value that over the name of your PhD program.
• Don’t worry about rankings--Apart from the very top schools, they won’t be the same in five years. Faculty move on, retire, or die with surprising frequency, which means school rankings change frequently, as well. 
• Schools not ranked in the first and second tier don’t like to hire first-tier PhDs because they look upon them with skepticism (i.e. “why would this person coming out of this university be interested in teaching at a smaller, teaching-based university rather than an R1 institution?”)
• In terms of hiring, it’s better to be an “All-star” at a lower-ranked institution than be struggling for attention at a top-tier institution. The former may not have the prestige, but will have stronger letters of recommendation and more faculty devoted to their success. 
• You’ll never teach at a top-tier university unless you attend a top-tier school. Then again, most applicants attending top-tier schools will never teach in a top-tier school.

I don’t know where I fall in all of this. I’m just curious as to what everyone thinks! 

Edited February 8, 2014 by Kamisha

[davidipse]

 The diversity of opinions on rankings held among faculty probably reflects—more-or-less, approximately, [qualifier], [qualifier], [qualifier]—the diversity of opinions held among hiring committees, since these are primarily composed of faculty members.

Edited February 8, 2014 by davidipse

[Kamisha]

Interesting article on this topic: http://chronicle.com/article/article-content/136823/

[Swagato]

Honestly, this issue has been discussed extensively. The general consensus is that yes, rankings obviously do matter a lot. The problem is in the term "rankings" itself.

 

The NRC data illustrate why. Programs that were ranked based on how scholars in the field perceived the programs tended to not rank in the same order when the same programs were listed based on whether they actually had the attributes in question. Long story short, the data showed a disconnect (at times) between *reputation* and what is in fact there (or not there). 

 

Reputation aside, attending a top department brings certain obvious advantages: access to a stronger network, more resources, more flexibility, access to field leaders, etc. Right now, for example, Yale is hosting an incredibly major symposium in Film and Media Studies that features top-flight scholars from 4-5 countries across Europe and the Americas. In some ways it's just easier to arrange such things at some places than it may be at others. Having prominent dissertation committee members and advisors can't hurt.

 

On the other hand there may be some discrimination while on the job market because certain committees may assume (rightly or not) that as a graduate from a major research department, you are not likely to remain at a teaching-focused college and will take off at the first chance you get. And, it is sometimes not the case that "an Ivy" has the best department in a given field. It probably doesn't have a terrible one, but it's a mistake to correlate institutional reputation with departmental reputation.

 

That pretty much covers all the bases. For the aspiring academic, in view of the academic job market, it simply makes all kinds of sense to choose the very highest-reputed department where you actually have a great fit. It's that balance that is so hard to find. 

[TechWriterSD]

If I was a teacher at the local community college with an incredible industry or applied arts resume, I would be more proud than the Harvard professor with a bunch of esoteric publications. I am seeking a blend of academic training and credential (second masters) coupled with real-world respected track record.

[iExcelAtMicrosoftPuns]

Rankings: how important are they?

As important as you make them.

[ComeBackZinc]

Yeah, I would echo Swagato in saying that it's not the rankings as such that matter but rather the relative prestige that they clumsily approximate that matters. Going to #7 is in no way guaranteed to put you in a worse position than going to #4, and the people who generate these lists might not have a clue as to whether #7 is really behind #4 at all. But going to a prestigious department makes a huge difference on the job market.

[Fiz]

I personally wouldn't consider attending anything outside of the top 50. Graduates from R-1 institutions have a hard enough time finding the tenure track, let alone graduates from 70th, 80th, or even 100 plus schools. Hell, I applied to Oregon--I think it is like...51 or so--and my professor chastised me endlessly. His words, "I guess you can apply to Oregon...it might get you started in the profession." I'd rather freaking teaching high school than slave away for 5-7 years in penury with no prospects at the end of it. And realistically, it's top 30 or nada.

[NowMoreSerious]

I personally wouldn't consider attending anything outside of the top 50. Graduates from R-1 institutions have a hard enough time finding the tenure track, let alone graduates from 70th, 80th, or even 100 plus schools. Hell, I applied to Oregon--I think it is like...51 or so--and my professor chastised me endlessly. His words, "I guess you can apply to Oregon...it might get you started in the profession." I'd rather freaking teaching high school than slave away for 5-7 years in penury with no prospects at the end of it. And realistically, it's top 30 or nada.

 

I see your point, but not everyone's endgoal is tenure track, and the overall rankings often don't take into account specialities that may be a benefit on the job market.  

[Fiz]

I see your point, but not everyone's endgoal is tenure track, and the overall rankings often don't take into account specialities that may be a benefit on the job market.  

I see your point, but I'm pretty sure any thread asking the question how important rankings are has to do with tenure track. If someone were attending the 123rd ranked school and had no wish to teach tenure track, I don't think this question would be asked... 

[ArthChauc]

I read some of the responses to this post and laughed out loud. I wish I had enough time to blog about how ridiculous some people are in academia, but alas thesis writing and worrying about myself take too much time. 

 

People talking about how anything ranked 50+ is a waste of time...seriously? I have friends who graduated from an 100+ Ph.D program who are now tenure track at North Carolina, Syracuse, and UT Austin. Did I mention that they were on the market for less than two years? 

 

If you have faculty that are chastising you for schools that interest you, it sounds like you need to work with people who are more in tune with your academic aspirations. If one of my professors acted like that about a school that I was interested in for nothing other than the ranking I would have run the opposite direction--that person clearly cares less about what you want as a student than they do about something as arbitrary as a number next to a school.

 

Also, don't think for a second that rankings always speak for the quality of a graduate program or the strength of staff--this is apparent in that New Mexico, Loyola-Chicago, and St. Louis are all EXCELLENT schools and are ranked in the 70-100 spots per US News and World report. Hell, Baylor is ranked 121 and anyone who's even read through their faculty knows that's far from the truth--I know this because there are Baylor applicants all over the Lit/RhetComp boards and they clearly get that. 

 

At the end of the day you have to do what's good for you. If that's a Ph.D, do it. I don't know where this entitled bullshit way of thinking has come from, but I'm certainly glad I'm not part of it. It's very clear how people on these boards look at universities/scholars that don't fit into their desired demographic and it's not at all attractive to me. I go to a small MA program and our faculty is made largely from Minnesota, UVA, and other top 20ish programs and churn out graduates who are regularly placed at fantastic tenure track and visiting programs. I think people like to say "rankings matter" and then ignore all of the times that they don't make a difference. You can be a lame duck in a top twenty program, but see how far the name of that Ph.D takes you vs. working your ass off at a lesser known program and getting your name out there. At the end of the day--if you want to be tenure track--the most important things that matter are the work that you do and who you know in the business. I know we like to pretend that we're above networking in the academe, but that's just untrue. 

 

/endrant 

[despejado]

I read some of the responses to this post and laughed out loud. I wish I had enough time to blog about how ridiculous some people are in academia, but alas thesis writing and worrying about myself take too much time.

People talking about how anything ranked 50+ is a waste of time...seriously? I have friends who graduated from an 100+ Ph.D program who are now tenure track at North Carolina, Syracuse, and UT Austin. Did I mention that they were on the market for less than two years?

If you have faculty that are chastising you for schools that interest you, it sounds like you need to work with people who are more in tune with your academic aspirations. If one of my professors acted like that about a school that I was interested in for nothing other than the ranking I would have run the opposite direction--that person clearly cares less about what you want as a student than they do about something as arbitrary as a number next to a school.

Also, don't think for a second that rankings always speak for the quality of a graduate program or the strength of staff--this is apparent in that New Mexico, Loyola-Chicago, and St. Louis are all EXCELLENT schools and are ranked in the 70-100 spots per US News and World report. Hell, Baylor is ranked 121 and anyone who's even read through their faculty knows that's far from the truth--I know this because there are Baylor applicants all over the Lit/RhetComp boards and they clearly get that.

At the end of the day you have to do what's good for you. If that's a Ph.D, do it. I don't know where this entitled bullshit way of thinking has come from, but I'm certainly glad I'm not part of it. It's very clear how people on these boards look at universities/scholars that don't fit into their desired demographic and it's not at all attractive to me. I go to a small MA program and our faculty is made largely from Minnesota, UVA, and other top 20ish programs and churn out graduates who are regularly placed at fantastic tenure track and visiting programs. I think people like to say "rankings matter" and then ignore all of the times that they don't make a difference. You can be a lame duck in a top twenty program, but see how far the name of that Ph.D takes you vs. working your ass off at a lesser known program and getting your name out there. At the end of the day--if you want to be tenure track--the most important things that matter are the work that you do and who you know in the business. I know we like to pretend that we're above networking in the academe, but that's just untrue.

/endrant

Fuck yeah. This is an awesome post.

[rhetoricus aesalon]

I read some of the responses to this post and laughed out loud. I wish I had enough time to blog about how ridiculous some people are in academia, but alas thesis writing and worrying about myself take too much time. 

 

People talking about how anything ranked 50+ is a waste of time...seriously? I have friends who graduated from an 100+ Ph.D program who are now tenure track at North Carolina, Syracuse, and UT Austin. Did I mention that they were on the market for less than two years? 

 

If you have faculty that are chastising you for schools that interest you, it sounds like you need to work with people who are more in tune with your academic aspirations. If one of my professors acted like that about a school that I was interested in for nothing other than the ranking I would have run the opposite direction--that person clearly cares less about what you want as a student than they do about something as arbitrary as a number next to a school.

 

Also, don't think for a second that rankings always speak for the quality of a graduate program or the strength of staff--this is apparent in that New Mexico, Loyola-Chicago, and St. Louis are all EXCELLENT schools and are ranked in the 70-100 spots per US News and World report. Hell, Baylor is ranked 121 and anyone who's even read through their faculty knows that's far from the truth--I know this because there are Baylor applicants all over the Lit/RhetComp boards and they clearly get that. 

 

At the end of the day you have to do what's good for you. If that's a Ph.D, do it. I don't know where this entitled bullshit way of thinking has come from, but I'm certainly glad I'm not part of it. It's very clear how people on these boards look at universities/scholars that don't fit into their desired demographic and it's not at all attractive to me. I go to a small MA program and our faculty is made largely from Minnesota, UVA, and other top 20ish programs and churn out graduates who are regularly placed at fantastic tenure track and visiting programs. I think people like to say "rankings matter" and then ignore all of the times that they don't make a difference. You can be a lame duck in a top twenty program, but see how far the name of that Ph.D takes you vs. working your ass off at a lesser known program and getting your name out there. At the end of the day--if you want to be tenure track--the most important things that matter are the work that you do and who you know in the business. I know we like to pretend that we're above networking in the academe, but that's just untrue. 

 

/endrant 

 

What a thought! If you want a tenure track job, just work hard and network! I don't think that's exactly what you meant, but that's the feeling I'm getting here ... and it scares me. 

 

I won't pretend like I don't love this post because I do. I really, really do. But I also think it's odd to suggest that prestige doesn't matter when applying to jobs. The harsh truth is that most of us will never have a tenure-track placement, and I for one am going for programs that will make me as marketable as possible. I can (and will) do good work in many places. But, maybe lit differs from rhet/comp a bit like that?

 

Maybe I can phrase this a different way. You're applying to a tenure-track opening. 600 others are applying for the same position. What will make you stand out in the 6 seconds the hiring committee looks at your application? Prestige may not get you that job, but I certainly think it would help in this context.

[ArthChauc]

What a thought! If you want a tenure track job, just work hard and network! I don't think that's exactly what you meant, but that's the feeling I'm getting here ... and it scares me. 

 

I won't pretend like I don't love this post because I do. I really, really do. But I also think it's odd to suggest that prestige doesn't matter when applying to jobs. The harsh truth is that most of us will never have a tenure-track placement, and I for one am going for programs that will make me as marketable as possible. I can (and will) do good work in many places. But, maybe lit differs from rhet/comp a bit like that?

 

Maybe I can phrase this a different way. You're applying to a tenure-track opening. 600 others are applying for the same position. What will make you stand out in the 6 seconds the hiring committee looks at your application? Prestige may not get you that job, but I certainly think it would help in this context.

 

Wow, way to choose a general comment I made and make it into the thesis of all that I wrote. "...and it scares me"? Seriously? I feel like I'm being scolded by a parent. Is that you, ima? 

 

Were did I say that prestige doesn't matter? I merely made the argument that you can go to a less prestigious university and still do well and that there is nothing wrong with going to a program that's "less prestigious" than another if you think it fits your needs best as a student. THAT was the thesis of my argument, nothing more. 

[CommPhD20]

Worry less about rankings and more about whether a particular school has a track record of placing its PhD recipients into the kinds of positions you're looking for -- and try to see whether this can be done without incurring a great deal of debt or personal hardship along the way.

[Kamisha]

Like I said, I posted this question just to see where current and future grad students land on this issue. What an interesting array of opinions. Thanks guys! 

[rhetoricus aesalon]

Wow, way to choose a general comment I made and make it into the thesis of all that I wrote. "...and it scares me"? Seriously? I feel like I'm being scolded by a parent. Is that you, ima? 

 

Were did I say that prestige doesn't matter? I merely made the argument that you can go to a less prestigious university and still do well and that there is nothing wrong with going to a program that's "less prestigious" than another if you think it fits your needs best as a student. THAT was the thesis of my argument, nothing more. 

 

I can see that you feel defensive about this, so I apologize for that because it certainly wasn't my intention to make my disagreeing with some of your points make you feel like a child. 

 

I actually agree with what you are essentially saying here, but I do think you actually make some additional claims about attending school beyond just wanting to be a student, and in these cases I am scared (me personally, not in a scolding you for thinking this way kind of scared) because we can never really know what a hiring committee favors, and if there is a possibility of adding prestige on top of the many other qualities that will make an application shine, why not use it to your advantage?

[Kamisha]

I read some of the responses to this post and laughed out loud. I wish I had enough time to blog about how ridiculous some people are in academia, but alas thesis writing and worrying about myself take too much time. 

 

People talking about how anything ranked 50+ is a waste of time...seriously? I have friends who graduated from an 100+ Ph.D program who are now tenure track at North Carolina, Syracuse, and UT Austin. Did I mention that they were on the market for less than two years? 

 

If you have faculty that are chastising you for schools that interest you, it sounds like you need to work with people who are more in tune with your academic aspirations. If one of my professors acted like that about a school that I was interested in for nothing other than the ranking I would have run the opposite direction--that person clearly cares less about what you want as a student than they do about something as arbitrary as a number next to a school.

 

Also, don't think for a second that rankings always speak for the quality of a graduate program or the strength of staff--this is apparent in that New Mexico, Loyola-Chicago, and St. Louis are all EXCELLENT schools and are ranked in the 70-100 spots per US News and World report. Hell, Baylor is ranked 121 and anyone who's even read through their faculty knows that's far from the truth--I know this because there are Baylor applicants all over the Lit/RhetComp boards and they clearly get that. 

 

At the end of the day you have to do what's good for you. If that's a Ph.D, do it. I don't know where this entitled bullshit way of thinking has come from, but I'm certainly glad I'm not part of it. It's very clear how people on these boards look at universities/scholars that don't fit into their desired demographic and it's not at all attractive to me. I go to a small MA program and our faculty is made largely from Minnesota, UVA, and other top 20ish programs and churn out graduates who are regularly placed at fantastic tenure track and visiting programs. I think people like to say "rankings matter" and then ignore all of the times that they don't make a difference. You can be a lame duck in a top twenty program, but see how far the name of that Ph.D takes you vs. working your ass off at a lesser known program and getting your name out there. At the end of the day--if you want to be tenure track--the most important things that matter are the work that you do and who you know in the business. I know we like to pretend that we're above networking in the academe, but that's just untrue. 

 

/endrant 

 

I appreciate this comment. I’m actually applying to Baylor despite its low World News ranking. They apparently have one of the strongest records in the nation for placing graduates in tenure-track positions  and are #26 in faculty publications. Not only that, they have been consistently climbing in the rankings for the last year years. Further, even though they are only ranked 121 on World News, NRC has them tied for #1 under the Student Outcomes category, which includes completion rates, financial aid, and placement. They also hang pretty tough in there with a lot of the top schools in several other categories. 

 

Haha I’m not meaning to become a Baylor cheerleader. I guess what I’m just saying is that I find myself aligning more and more with opinions like the ones expressed here and in JLRC’s comment, which I’ve put below.

 

Worry less about rankings and more about whether a particular school has a track record of placing its PhD recipients into the kinds of positions you're looking for -- and try to see whether this can be done without incurring a great deal of debt or personal hardship along the way.

 

Again, thanks for weighing in, guys. It’s helping me evaluate the way I think about where I applied. 

 

 

If you want to look at the NRC rankings: http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-English/124728/

Edited February 12, 2014 by Kamisha

[Fiz]

I read some of the responses to this post and laughed out loud. I wish I had enough time to blog about how ridiculous some people are in academia, but alas thesis writing and worrying about myself take too much time. 

 

People talking about how anything ranked 50+ is a waste of time...seriously? I have friends who graduated from an 100+ Ph.D program who are now tenure track at North Carolina, Syracuse, and UT Austin. Did I mention that they were on the market for less than two years? 

 

If you have faculty that are chastising you for schools that interest you, it sounds like you need to work with people who are more in tune with your academic aspirations. If one of my professors acted like that about a school that I was interested in for nothing other than the ranking I would have run the opposite direction--that person clearly cares less about what you want as a student than they do about something as arbitrary as a number next to a school.

 

Also, don't think for a second that rankings always speak for the quality of a graduate program or the strength of staff--this is apparent in that New Mexico, Loyola-Chicago, and St. Louis are all EXCELLENT schools and are ranked in the 70-100 spots per US News and World report. Hell, Baylor is ranked 121 and anyone who's even read through their faculty knows that's far from the truth--I know this because there are Baylor applicants all over the Lit/RhetComp boards and they clearly get that. 

 

At the end of the day you have to do what's good for you. If that's a Ph.D, do it. I don't know where this entitled bullshit way of thinking has come from, but I'm certainly glad I'm not part of it. It's very clear how people on these boards look at universities/scholars that don't fit into their desired demographic and it's not at all attractive to me. I go to a small MA program and our faculty is made largely from Minnesota, UVA, and other top 20ish programs and churn out graduates who are regularly placed at fantastic tenure track and visiting programs. I think people like to say "rankings matter" and then ignore all of the times that they don't make a difference. You can be a lame duck in a top twenty program, but see how far the name of that Ph.D takes you vs. working your ass off at a lesser known program and getting your name out there. At the end of the day--if you want to be tenure track--the most important things that matter are the work that you do and who you know in the business. I know we like to pretend that we're above networking in the academe, but that's just untrue. 

 

/endrant 

 

Lol dude all I can say is if you'd like to believe in and attend 100+ ranked programs, then that is your prerogative, and I wish you good luck. Me? Well I wouldn't choose that path, but I dont really have that problem since I've already been admitted into two highly ranked programs, once of which is, as I am told from that department, because of the recommendation from that professor who could not care less about me. Im paraphrasing here but I believe the email read something like: Once we read________'s letter, it was pretty much sealed. Pretty good thing I didn't run from that guy!

 

Anyhow, best of luck to you bro!

[ArthChauc]

Lol dude all I can say is if you'd like to believe in and attend 100+ ranked programs, then that is your prerogative, and I wish you good luck. Me? Well I wouldn't choose that path, but I dont really have that problem since I've already been admitted into two highly ranked programs, once of which is, as I am told from that department, because of the recommendation from that professor who could not care less about me. Im paraphrasing here but I believe the email read something like: Once we read________'s letter, it was pretty much sealed. Pretty good thing I didn't run from that guy!

 

Anyhow, best of luck to you bro!

 

Thanks bro and of course congratulations dude. Also, I'm a female. All I know is that I'm glad that I have professors that care about me who are writing for me. I have also, as of last night, been admitted to a top program (in the twenties, I've discovered), so let's not assume that just because I advocate for people ignoring rankings and finding a good fit for them that that must somehow mean that I have no interest in any other programs. 

 

Obviously, my sentiments don't apply to someone who ardently believe in rankings because, well, I'm responding to the post at large and not trying to sway someone with a strong opinion. Also, do you really think one person's letter did the job for you? I'm sure you had a strong packet as a whole. 

Edited February 12, 2014 by ArthurianChaucerian

[ComeBackZinc]

Well BigToe, clearly, sucks.

 

However: I strongly encourage everyone who posts here to go to a dozen or so websites of schools and programs you admire, and find the page where the faculty are listed. Take an honest accounting of what you find there. Be ruthlessly honest with yourself when evaluating what you see. Then take that for whatever you think it's worth.

[ArthChauc]

 

 

However: I strongly encourage everyone who posts here to go to a dozen or so websites of schools and programs you admire, and find the page where the faculty are listed. Take an honest accounting of what you find there. Be ruthlessly honest with yourself when evaluating what you see. Then take that for whatever you think it's worth.

 

Critique of other posters aside, I truly agree with this. 

[ComeBackZinc]

I guess I should have said "Big Toe's picture grosses me out."

[Fiz]

Thanks bro and of course congratulations dude. Also, I'm a female. All I know is that I'm glad that I have professors that care about me who are writing for me. I have also, as of last night, been admitted to a top program (in the twenties, I've discovered), so let's not assume that just because I advocate for people ignoring rankings and finding a good fit for them that that must somehow mean that I have no interest in any other programs.

Obviously, my sentiments don't apply to someone who ardently believe in rankings because, well, I'm responding to the post at large and not trying to sway someone with a strong opinion. Also, do you really think one person's letter did the job for you? I'm sure you had a strong packet as a whole.

Umm ok

[Fiz]

I guess I should have said "Big Toe's picture grosses me out."

I cant hellllpps itttt lol