GRE for non native speakers

[courrier]

Hi!

 

I am a Japanese student, going to be taking the GRE next week.

I've been studying for it almost everyday, but the score is not improving, especially verbal.  I think I can get around 160 on math but I'm about 150 on verbal right now. 

I'm really worried because I'm going for around top 20 art history programs which would probably require around 160 in verbal.

 

Does anyone have any idea how universities look at GRE for international non-native speakers?

I feel like it should be unfair if the scores were considered equally with the native scores?

[VioletAyame]

I'm not sure how it would be unfair. If accepted, we will be doing the same coursework, studying with the same faculty, probably getting the same funding package, and at the end receiving the same degree - I don't see how we should not be judged on the same standard in the admission process. The only thing I can think of is maybe a strong TOEFL score can mitigate a low GRE V score, but that is something you should check with the programs you're considering. Also, check with them to see if they have a fixed cutoff score (like what you implied here) or is the 160 just a general guideline and a low score can be compensated by other parts of your application (as a rule for all applicants). I'm not in your field so perhaps you can post in the Art History subforum and get a better idea there.

I do have some experiences in getting a decent verbal score. I don't know if you're interested or if you've already tried everything and I don't want to be presumptuous, so if you like to talk more about it you can reply here or PM me. I'll be happy to share anything I know.

[armchairette]

Hi!

 

I am a Japanese student, going to be taking the GRE next week.

I've been studying for it almost everyday, but the score is not improving, especially verbal.  I think I can get around 160 on math but I'm about 150 on verbal right now. 

I'm really worried because I'm going for around top 20 art history programs which would probably require around 160 in verbal.

 

Does anyone have any idea how universities look at GRE for international non-native speakers?

I feel like it should be unfair if the scores were considered equally with the native scores?

 

My understanding, from tutoring non-native English speaking students and working for a university intensive English program, is that you want it to be as high as you are able, but also comparable to your performance on TOEFL.  It would be odd if you scored way higher on one in those areas than on the other test.  The adcom should view your scores on TOEFL+GRE as a package--and as only part of your application.  Some might give more weight to the GRE than others, some might be more forgiving.  

[fuzzylogician]

I'm not sure how it would be unfair. If accepted, we will be doing the same coursework, studying with the same faculty, probably getting the same funding package, and at the end receiving the same degree - I don't see how we should not be judged on the same standard in the admission process.

 

We all know that the GRE isn't really a good predictor of graduate school success. One's ability to do good research -- including reading, writing, and presenting in English -- is not exactly what is measured in the Verbal section of the GRE (nor the AWA but don't get me started on that one). A large portion of the test simply has to do with the size of your vocabulary, in particular as it pertains to rare and esoteric words and phrases. Another important factor is how fast you can read. Having native-speaker exposure increases your baseline starting point for studying vocab for the exam. So does reading and writing in the language on a regular basis. If you're a speaker of a language that does not use the Latin alphabet, and you don't speak a Romance or Germanic language that shares some vocab with English, your starting point is quite different from that of a native speaker. Ask yourself, how fast can you read in a second language in a less familiar alphabet? Is that really correlated with how good your science is? 

 

Once you're in a degree program, as an international student you will work harder than native speakers at developing the necessary communication skills so you can become a successful academic. Your peers who are native speakers will have an advantage and won't work as hard. Still, as you say, everyone will get the same degree. Should this extra work be counted for anything? Probably not, because it's required training for anyone who wants to be a researcher and communicate their science. But it's worth keeping in mind that holding non-native speakers to the same standard as native speakers for irrelevant tasks that favor one group over the other (and I think the GRE is exactly that) may not be the best way of select the best applicants, and I think it's entirely understandable that the groups that are disfavored by this test worry about it.

[spunky]

Does anyone have any idea how universities look at GRE for international non-native speakers?

I feel like it should be unfair if the scores were considered equally with the native scores?

 

As a non-native English speaker who took the GRE and made it into graduate school I can tell you with absolute confidence that they look at the scores exactly the same way as they would for any native-speaker. Even though it is true that the GRE is not the *only* thing admission committees look at, the fact of the matter is that if you want to get into graduate school in an English-speaking country as an ESL (English as a Second Language) grad student, you need to do twice the work. That's the way it is, there is no way around it.

 

The way I was able to improve my GRE verbal score was through a rather tedious but INCREDIBLY effective method: get all those lists of bizarre English words from as many GRE prep books guides as you can, put them all in a list, look up their definition in the dictionary and memorize, memorize, memorize.

 

To be honest I don't think I remember a single one of those words now, but I got a decent-enough score on the verbal section to make it through. And in my case the GRE was my only option to get into a Psychology program because I did not have many Psych courses as an undergrad, so the stakes were pretty high for me. 

Edited March 14, 2014 by spunky

[courrier]

Thank you all for replying!

I guess I have to face the reality that GRE matters, and the only thing I could do is to get the best score possible.

 

Also, thank you fuzzylogician. It's nice to know that someone understands that I worry so much.

I guess I am nervous because I have the test next week, so it really helps.

 

VioletAyame and spunky, congratulations on your admission! If you don't mind, I would like to know your verbal scores and how you got it. I have enrolled in Magoosh and I am doing a heck load of reading. I guess I have to start doing vocab like crazy..

Another thing, spunky, how did you get the "absolute confidence" to say that they look at the score in exactly the same way as they do for native speakers?

[spunky]

 If you don't mind, I would like to know your verbal scores and how you got it.

 

I did my GRE in 2010 so I'm not sure how it compares to the grading scheme now, but for the verbal section I got 640. When I started taking the prep tests online and from the books I borrowed from the library I was doing terrible. But I figured out very quickly that the only reason I was doing so horribly was because there were a lot of words in the analogies and other sections that I simply didn't know. So it wasn't that the questions were hard, they were hard for me because I didn't know the meaning of the words. The moment I realized that I started compiling those lists of words I told you about and simply memorizing them. By the time I had memorized the meaning of maybe around 150 of those words, I noticed my practice scores went up considerably. And that's how I knew all I needed to do was to focus on finding more 'GRE-type' words and memorizing them. 

 

 

Another thing, spunky, how did you get the "absolute confidence" to say that they look at the score in exactly the same way as they do for native speakers?

 

Because I asked. I inquired at every program I applied to what was their policy on international students, particularly with regards to the GRE. And their answer (although harsh) was more or less in line of what VioletAyame said. If you consider yourself competent enough to go apply to graduate school in an English-speaking country is because you are capable of doing the same level of work at the same pace. Nothing is going to slow down for you to catch up with them. Sure, you get some leniency at first because you're the "new person" and you're "adapting" to the new environment and whatnot. But when classes start and you need to start writing down reports and research projects, you'll realize very quickly that it is you the one who needs to run twice as fast and work twice as hard to make sure you're still at the same level as all the brilliant people around you.

 

Unless you can bring some exceptional talents to the table (or you know someone who really wants to work with you already), you are just like any other candidate. I am very honest with myself and I knew I was a 'good' candidate, but definitely not an 'exceptional' one. I knew I didn't have anything in my application that was going to make me really stand-out from the other hundreds of applicants looking for the same position I was going for, so I studied for weeks to make sure I'd get superb GRE scores. I could very easily imagine an admission committee going over my application and saying "why would we want this merely 'good' candidate with not-so-great English scores when we have another hundred or so 'good' candidates with much better English scores?". I guess the fact that I'm super competitive helped me out there

[Sarah Bee]

I dread GRE math. I have always been bad in math and I wish it was not mandatory. If it was not for math, I think I would have performed pretty well in other parts of the test. Though there are schools which do not require a GRE score, I have very limited choices solely because of being bad with numbers. I don't understand how that makes me a less capable journalism student than someone who has taken GRE and scored well in Math.

[VioletAyame]

We all know that the GRE isn't really a good predictor of graduate school success. One's ability to do good research -- including reading, writing, and presenting in English -- is not exactly what is measured in the Verbal section of the GRE (nor the AWA but don't get me started on that one). A large portion of the test simply has to do with the size of your vocabulary, in particular as it pertains to rare and esoteric words and phrases. Another important factor is how fast you can read. Having native-speaker exposure increases your baseline starting point for studying vocab for the exam. So does reading and writing in the language on a regular basis. If you're a speaker of a language that does not use the Latin alphabet, and you don't speak a Romance or Germanic language that shares some vocab with English, your starting point is quite different from that of a native speaker. Ask yourself, how fast can you read in a second language in a less familiar alphabet? Is that really correlated with how good your science is? 

 

Once you're in a degree program, as an international student you will work harder than native speakers at developing the necessary communication skills so you can become a successful academic. Your peers who are native speakers will have an advantage and won't work as hard. Still, as you say, everyone will get the same degree. Should this extra work be counted for anything? Probably not, because it's required training for anyone who wants to be a researcher and communicate their science. But it's worth keeping in mind that holding non-native speakers to the same standard as native speakers for irrelevant tasks that favor one group over the other (and I think the GRE is exactly that) may not be the best way of select the best applicants, and I think it's entirely understandable that the groups that are disfavored by this test worry about it.

Let's not get into an argument about how valid the GRE is or how well it can predict grad school success (though I assume we would not disagree too much about that). I don't claim to know how adcoms actually look at GRE for international vs domestic students; my point is I'm not surprised or upset if we receive the same treatment. If a given program doesn't think highly of GRE scores in general and decides thus to give it less weight in international students' profiles, great. If not, I would not blame them. Does it mean we'll have to work harder, take more time to complete work, etc.? Yes of course. But so will American students studying in Germany or German students studying in Japan. I think once we make a conscious decision to study abroad and in a language that is not our own, we should anticipate the challenges that arise from the language barrier and not expect anyone to make exception for us (I do have to say that most people I meet do make exceptions and are understanding; I'm just saying I don't expect an institution to change its rule for a particular group of students). You said "Ask yourself, how fast can you read in a second language in a less familiar alphabet? Is that really correlated with how good your science is?" Perhaps not, but understanding the literature in that language and being able to write and publish in that language are the outward indicator of how good one's science is, because frankly, if you can't tell people they won't know how smart you are. So the working harder part is kind of a given, if not for the GRE or to write a great SOP, it'd be for reading journals and revising papers afterwards. It's unavoidable.

 

 

Thank you all for replying!

I guess I have to face the reality that GRE matters, and the only thing I could do is to get the best score possible.

 

Also, thank you fuzzylogician. It's nice to know that someone understands that I worry so much.

I guess I am nervous because I have the test next week, so it really helps.

 

VioletAyame and spunky, congratulations on your admission! If you don't mind, I would like to know your verbal scores and how you got it. I have enrolled in Magoosh and I am doing a heck load of reading. I guess I have to start doing vocab like crazy..

Another thing, spunky, how did you get the "absolute confidence" to say that they look at the score in exactly the same way as they do for native speakers?

 

I got a 170 V It's kind of a reverse situation, because my status as an international student does make it more impressive than it actually is. I have to say I don't actually know how I got that, but I can tell you my V score was consistently in the mid 160s in my practice tests. Spunky already gave you a lot of good advice. You have to cram the vocab; there's really no way around it. Flashcards help, and you can tackle them by word groups - suffixes, prefixes, similar meanings, etc. I think Magoosh has a free app to help you learn the vocab, kind of like a vitural flashcards collection, but I might be wrong. I myself used Manhattan practice tests (I think you can get 6 for about $30), plus the PowerPrep tests as benchmarks. I feel that Manhattan underestimated my V score and overestimated my Q score, but considering that you want to improve the verbal, that might not be a bad idea after all.

[DeleteMePlease]

Does anyone have any idea how universities look at GRE for international non-native speakers?

I feel like it should be unfair if the scores were considered equally with the native scores?

 

In my opinion this is taken into account. Also, foreign students are often not used to american-style standardized tests. That is the only reason that I can think of why I was admitted despite an AW score of 3.5 

However, keep in mind that you are not applying for an exchange program. They want somebody who is as qualified in writing English as a native speaker. 

If your verbal or AW scores suck try to score good (>>100) on the TOEFL to show that you can actually speak and write English.

[Science_Nerd]

Hi!

 

I am a Japanese student, going to be taking the GRE next week.

I've been studying for it almost everyday, but the score is not improving, especially verbal.  I think I can get around 160 on math but I'm about 150 on verbal right now. 

I'm really worried because I'm going for around top 20 art history programs which would probably require around 160 in verbal.

 

Does anyone have any idea how universities look at GRE for international non-native speakers?

I feel like it should be unfair if the scores were considered equally with the native scores?

 

I am Japanese Phd applicant too!

Since I'm applying to biomedical science programs, it can be quite different from your art history program applications.

But after having a chance to speak with the head of Admissions Committee at one of the programs I got accepted, I am pretty certain that GRE is not as greatly important as we think. I mean, sure it is important and required but just not sooooooo much.

This is her exact words:  ".....we always look TOEFL and Verbal GRE together anyways....."

 

Also, as long as other components of your application is competitive, you will be invited for interviews. And there, they can interact with you in person to see what your actual English proficiency is. (Because, as you all can agree, there are international students who can score very high on Verbal GRE but do horribly in real-life communications, which is very critical in Academia).

 

So I don't think you should be really stressed out just because your GRE is not as high as you want it to be.

I mean, luckily, being Japanese, GRE math section is almost equivalent to Japanese high school math level, so as long as you can understand the questions in English, you can really great on Quantitative section. So the overall percentile can be higher than you'd think with your high Q section score.

 

 

As long as you have a well-written personal statement (or statement of purpose, depending on school), strong letters of recommendation, and good extracurricular activities, you should be good to go  (assuming your TOEFL score is >100 and close to 110)

Edited March 17, 2014 by Science_Nerd