jmb04 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 PS: I see you're applying to U of M. I live in Ann Arbor, so let me know if you need any info about the city. thanks for the offer but not sure if I'll eventually need it. Per the results page, someone got short listed at UMich and it wasn't me. That was my first app, and probably my weakest one. Speaking of which, whoever you are - congrats! Mind sharing your subfield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschoolhopeful Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 hi lizart et al, your comments are well taken. taking a cue from your post, cynicism and pragmatism are two very different things. and i would place my comments squarely in the pragmatic category. i did not say that none of you will find jobs and i certainly did not mean to imply that you should forgo your dreams (that would be rather hypocritical of me!). i am just trying to strike a tone of reality. whether or not you think i'm cynical or pragmatic, the fact remains that even if one has an incredible cv and great dissertation, a job may not materialize when you are out of grad school. this is something that one needs to know before one starts. it's great that you have already accepted this reality, but there may be other people out there who need to hear this information who don't have undergrad advisors who have prepared them for it. and i think that it's important to make this a topic of discussion from the beginning of your academic careers so it does not come to bite you down the road. the negative tone of my posts is not a reflection of my unique and cynical outlook, but is more a factor of what is going on right now in the academic job market. that is what i wanted to relay because i thought that some of you might find it useful. i completely empathize with the process you are all going through. i know it sucks. if the information i relay is difficult to take, i'm sorry, but i hope you can believe me when i say that i'm not being an alarmist about this. i can see that my comments are not well timed (and i'm sorry for that), with committee decisions coming down right now. believe me, i understand what rejection feels like. but i also thought that the insights of someone further along might give comfort to some of who who don't get the offers you have dreamed of. again, best of luck. i hope you all get what you want. I just wanted to step in and add to this conversation a little bit. Where I went to undergrad happens to be one of the top schools in art history and I was always under the impression that I would get into graduate school. This may not be the case this year or ever--I'm okay with this precisely because of what bobo has said. There is A LOT of sacrifice to be made for an academic career and the people I look up to as my mentors are either curators at top museums or professors at my alma mater who have so clearly "made it" as art historians. They do seem to be a bit out of touch with the difficulty of securing jobs as a recent PhD student today; as they have only had success, seem to forget that many, many others fall along the way. I really, really appreciate and understand bobo's point of view and I have watched others with both humanities and social science PhD degrees struggle to find jobs. I don't believe that bobo is being cynical at all, but trying to sensitively relate the severe situation for aspiring academics. This application process has me guiltily questioning whether I have the strength to go through this over and over and over again--to apply, to put my heart and soul into my research and writing and to hope that somehow, somewhere, I will be the special chosen one. Even now, I am reluctant to commit to long-term engagements or relationships because of all the "what-ifs" associated to graduate school applications. This will happen over and over and over again. Some of us will certainly succeed and never fail--due to luck or extreme capacity. Some of us will fail a lot and then have a gleaming moment of success. Some of us will succeed and then fall. And some of us will just fall. I question if this is how I want to live the rest of my life when I do so badly want to research and write about my topic. My question is this--is anyone else feeling these pangs of doubt during the application process? Do you feel guilty about them--as in if you feel this nervous already, maybe you're not as passionate or cut out for academic life as you thought you were? I am extremely passionate about my research and would love nothing more than to write and disseminate knowledge as a living, but maybe sometimes I question if I am strong enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPotato Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I think all the stress and waiting is getting to us. Lets all mellow out on that front and debate the merits of this article (its short): http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/jonathanjonesblog/2010/feb/16/art-history-michelangelo-courtauld-institute Okay, its not a great distraction, but we sure need one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardkore Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) Hi there, I've been watching this forum because I am applying this Fall for my second round. I applied in 2007 to Yale, Columbia, Berkeley, Stanford in Art History, and NYU in Visual Culture and Media. I have a degree in Art History (American/British contemporary was my focus back then). I was accepted only to NYU which I have attended for my master's degree. Looking back on it, it was pretty presumptuous of me to just apply to the big four like that especially without really caring about fit. Yale and my interests? Please. Considering my visual culture bent, I will reapply to Columbia and Stanford. Berkeley, I don't know now that the dept is shifting so much. I'm a contemporarist, I don't even like to say modernist because my interests lay in technology, new media art, continental philosophy and cyberculture studies as they relate to visual culture. This next round will include Columbia (to study with Crary) Stanford (Paul DeMarinis & Pamela Lee) MIT's freaking ONE art history position offered a year (Bauer and Anderson) USC's History of Consciousness (Haraway) Berkeley (Rhetoric, Judith Butler) Brown's Media and Culture program (Wendy Chun) and possibly Rochester and Duke's art history/visual culture programs. I have some experience with the second round and what it now entails and remember that Berkeley and Yale dated their letters to me around February 14th and I received them early March. In a grad program at NYU I can tell you just how important the head of a department is, how important the actual people you work with are and for me, what kind of structure I require for my doctorate. Although there are some PhD programs I could add to that list for less competitive albeit interesting programs (I'm looking at you Binghamton), don't do a PhD at a school that isn't worth it and where the funding might be scant (NYU IFA is famous for this.) Good luck waiting- I know it's the hardest part, even harder than the rejections. Edited February 18, 2010 by hardkore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzydoodle Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Welcome and thanks for your insight Hardkore. There is one thing you said that I would like to comment on: Although there are some PhD programs I could add to that list for less competitive albeit interesting programs (I'm looking at you Binghamton), don't do a PhD at a school that isn't worth it and where the funding might be scant (NYU IFA is famous for this.) Although I agree with satement, I just want to point out that one should not always be lured by big names. Yes, it can be the feather in your cap, but there are some smaller schools that can be the best place for someone, based on their interests. I do believe Richard Trexler was at Binghamton- you can hit a goldmine with smaller programs. I've often heard that for grad programs, it's not where you go but who you work with. I'm not posting this to start a debate about the merits of a big name school. I'm just encouraging people to throw the net a bit wider when applying, because it is so competitive, and you can find great programs that don't have a big name. When there's a will, there's a way. :-) But please don't go if you don't have adequate funding. We're all aware of the job market, and taking on that kind of debt with no sort of guarantee afterwards is risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardkore Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Welcome and thanks for your insight Hardkore. There is one thing you said that I would like to comment on: Although there are some PhD programs I could add to that list for less competitive albeit interesting programs (I'm looking at you Binghamton), don't do a PhD at a school that isn't worth it and where the funding might be scant (NYU IFA is famous for this.) Although I agree with satement, I just want to point out that one should not always be lured by big names. Yes, it can be the feather in your cap, but there are some smaller schools that can be the best place for someone, based on their interests. I do believe Richard Trexler was at Binghamton- you can hit a goldmine with smaller programs. I've often heard that for grad programs, it's not where you go but who you work with. I'm not posting this to start a debate about the merits of a big name school. I'm just encouraging people to throw the net a bit wider when applying, because it is so competitive, and you can find great programs that don't have a big name. When there's a will, there's a way. :-) But please don't go if you don't have adequate funding. We're all aware of the job market, and taking on that kind of debt with no sort of guarantee afterwards is risky. I understand what you're saying about small programs, but it's more than "a feather in your cap." It's about job security. Being an adjunct with no benefits or health insurance who moves to Kansas to be able to work isn't ideal when you're 45 years old. You get what I'm saying. With PhD programs, you should be as selective as possible, not desperate just to go anywhere and things will work themselves out later, unless there is someone you truly want to work with and the program has resources to send you to conferences, put you up in hotels, can pay you a living wage. I know some people who are very happy with their PhD choices that were not top programs. It just has to be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzydoodle Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) I understand what you're saying about small programs, but it's more than "a feather in your cap." It's about job security. Being an adjunct with no benefits or health insurance who moves to Kansas to be able to work isn't ideal when you're 45 years old. You get what I'm saying. With PhD programs, you should be as selective as possible, not desperate just to go anywhere and things will work themselves out later, unless there is someone you truly want to work with and the program has resources to send you to conferences, put you up in hotels, can pay you a living wage. I know some people who are very happy with their PhD choices that were not top programs. It just has to be worth it. Exactly, there are some small programs that do have superstars that would afford job security (if that exists); it's all relative to your subfield/specializaton. I just want people to be aware that there are more options out there than the "big names." But with the way things are going now...who knows. :-D Your fifth sentence should be the banner above the art history page. Edited February 18, 2010 by mitzydoodle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ristastic Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 With all this talk about academic job security, is there anyone out there not planning on teaching? I'm personally interested in a curatorial position, but would be interested to hear if anyone's planning a career in art history outside of academia? Anyone still waiting to hear from Rutgers? Can't decide if it's a good or terrible sign I haven't heard anything yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizart Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Just wanted to share that apparently Rutgers is giving no funding to MAs this year... Stupid former business majors messing up money for us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPotato Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 but would be interested to hear if anyone's planning a career in art history outside of academia? Me! Me! Me! I want to go into museum work, either exhibition development or education/interpretation. I especially like working with non-western or modern art, because thats typically what people are not familiar with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watersnake Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 So, who is the Northwestern admit?! Is it the person who was "shortlisted" a couple weeks ago (thomasjnh)? Whoever it is: Congratulations!! Is it too early to start drinking today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardkore Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) Me! Me! Me! I want to go into museum work, either exhibition development or education/interpretation. I especially like working with non-western or modern art, because thats typically what people are not familiar with. Redpotato, did Bard make it onto your list? I worked in MoMA's education department as a tour guide while I was a fellow there. I know several people in the museum who had gone to Bard. Edited February 18, 2010 by hardkore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb04 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Is it too early to start drinking today? Can I join you? The results from my schools are beginning to trickle in, and likewise the doubt is creeping in... I think I'll be getting an MA first and re-applying for PhD in 2 years. Oh well c'est la vie! Congrats Northwestern admit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomasjnh Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 So, who is the Northwestern admit?! Is it the person who was "shortlisted" a couple weeks ago (thomasjnh)? Whoever it is: Congratulations!! Is it too early to start drinking today? Yeah that was me, just got the email this morning and then a phone call this afternoon. I unfortunately don't know how many students they admitted or if they've notified everyone yet. There's a visitation weekend march 4-5 that coincides with a conference the dept is holding. Thanks for the congrats! This is my second year applying to phd programs and I'm incredibly relieved this year has gone better than the last. So if it doesn't work out for everyone hang in there and try again! Also, it's never too early for a drink imo, although I'm at work right now so it'll have to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watersnake Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Can I join you? The results from my schools are beginning to trickle in, and likewise the doubt is creeping in... I think I'll be getting an MA first and re-applying for PhD in 2 years. Oh well c'est la vie! Congrats Northwestern admit! Yes, please, jmb04! I can be in LA in 6hrs. I got my MA last year, so if things continue the way they've been going I'll have to hold down a "real" job until I can apply again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmsw86 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Just wanted to share that apparently Rutgers is giving no funding to MAs this year... Stupid former business majors messing up money for us! Unfortunately I've heard the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitzydoodle Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 To JHU applicants: I just heard from a friend of mine (who is very close to the art history department) that they had about 670 applications this year, and accepted a whopping three. I was not one of them. :-/ I don't mean to scare anyone, just to show that it is uber-competitive this year...to all that are accepted this year: extra congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyzero Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I just wanted to step in and add to this conversation a little bit. Where I went to undergrad happens to be one of the top schools in art history and I was always under the impression that I would get into graduate school. This may not be the case this year or ever--I'm okay with this precisely because of what bobo has said. There is A LOT of sacrifice to be made for an academic career and the people I look up to as my mentors are either curators at top museums or professors at my alma mater who have so clearly "made it" as art historians. They do seem to be a bit out of touch with the difficulty of securing jobs as a recent PhD student today; as they have only had success, seem to forget that many, many others fall along the way. I really, really appreciate and understand bobo's point of view and I have watched others with both humanities and social science PhD degrees struggle to find jobs. I don't believe that bobo is being cynical at all, but trying to sensitively relate the severe situation for aspiring academics. This application process has me guiltily questioning whether I have the strength to go through this over and over and over again--to apply, to put my heart and soul into my research and writing and to hope that somehow, somewhere, I will be the special chosen one. Even now, I am reluctant to commit to long-term engagements or relationships because of all the "what-ifs" associated to graduate school applications. This will happen over and over and over again. Some of us will certainly succeed and never fail--due to luck or extreme capacity. Some of us will fail a lot and then have a gleaming moment of success. Some of us will succeed and then fall. And some of us will just fall. I question if this is how I want to live the rest of my life when I do so badly want to research and write about my topic. My question is this--is anyone else feeling these pangs of doubt during the application process? Do you feel guilty about them--as in if you feel this nervous already, maybe you're not as passionate or cut out for academic life as you thought you were? I am extremely passionate about my research and would love nothing more than to write and disseminate knowledge as a living, but maybe sometimes I question if I am strong enough. Yes. To paraphrase 'Trainspotting': I don't choose life, I choose art history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgica2 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 With all this talk about academic job security, is there anyone out there not planning on teaching? I'm personally interested in a curatorial position, but would be interested to hear if anyone's planning a career in art history outside of academia? Anyone still waiting to hear from Rutgers? Can't decide if it's a good or terrible sign I haven't heard anything yet! I'm with you -- I haven't totally ruled out wanting a teaching position, but right now I'm definitely more interested in curatorial/museum work. And, frankly, there are a lot of exciting things happening totally outside of mainstream institutions in my area (contemporary) and I'd be quite happy to work at an alternative/non-profit space or even an interesting commercial gallery with a great contemporary roster. Obviously there are more options in contemporary for non-institutional work than, say, Renaissance, but I'm definitely not that concerned about the dire state of the academic job market. With that said -- I am VERY concerned about the current dire state of graduate admissions, considering that another acceptance was posted today from my absolute first choice (Columbia) and I have heard squat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
policysecond Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 congrats to the Northwestern admits- speak up! who are you / what is your subfield? SO. JEALOUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watersnake Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Sigh. 3 Northwestern admits today and my inbox remains empty. Not looking good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmb04 Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Sigh. 3 Northwestern admits today and my inbox remains empty. Not looking good... My inbox is full... of shattered dreams. LOL!! Totally kidding. ... though I didn't receive anything from Northwestern either. Congrats Northwesterners! All we need is one admit this year so don't give up hope watersnake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemislyre Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 (edited) I just wanted to step in and add to this conversation a little bit. Where I went to undergrad happens to be one of the top schools in art history and I was always under the impression that I would get into graduate school. This may not be the case this year or ever--I'm okay with this precisely because of what bobo has said. There is A LOT of sacrifice to be made for an academic career and the people I look up to as my mentors are either curators at top museums or professors at my alma mater who have so clearly "made it" as art historians. They do seem to be a bit out of touch with the difficulty of securing jobs as a recent PhD student today; as they have only had success, seem to forget that many, many others fall along the way. I really, really appreciate and understand bobo's point of view and I have watched others with both humanities and social science PhD degrees struggle to find jobs. I don't believe that bobo is being cynical at all, but trying to sensitively relate the severe situation for aspiring academics. This application process has me guiltily questioning whether I have the strength to go through this over and over and over again--to apply, to put my heart and soul into my research and writing and to hope that somehow, somewhere, I will be the special chosen one. Even now, I am reluctant to commit to long-term engagements or relationships because of all the "what-ifs" associated to graduate school applications. This will happen over and over and over again. Some of us will certainly succeed and never fail--due to luck or extreme capacity. Some of us will fail a lot and then have a gleaming moment of success. Some of us will succeed and then fall. And some of us will just fall. I question if this is how I want to live the rest of my life when I do so badly want to research and write about my topic. My question is this--is anyone else feeling these pangs of doubt during the application process? Do you feel guilty about them--as in if you feel this nervous already, maybe you're not as passionate or cut out for academic life as you thought you were? I am extremely passionate about my research and would love nothing more than to write and disseminate knowledge as a living, but maybe sometimes I question if I am strong enough. Art Schoolhopeful: I feel exactly as you do and even prior to entering the application round, I was having hesitations if the academy was truly the way of life I wanted to pursue. I have already had a taste of gradaute life and I don't know if I can sustain it for the rest of my life. I also appreciated Bobo's input. . I have some really good friends, who are finished with their PhD's at UChicago who are having difficulties finding jobs or what would be their ideal job. One found placement in a small liberal arts college in god knows obscure city; whereas a friend of hers was lucky (or the demand was there at the time) and she was placed in a bigger, more prestigious institution. Or another, who spent 2 years looking for a position, was finally placed in a state school teaching Intro to Art. A friend once told me "Even if you did everything right, you might still not find a job, or the one you were hoping for." Its hard hearing the depressing realities of post-Phd because it makes us question our path. But, although doubtful, if I was admitted to my top choice institution, I would attend Edited February 19, 2010 by artemislyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watersnake Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 My inbox is full... of shattered dreams. LOL!! Totally kidding. ... though I didn't receive anything from Northwestern either. Congrats Northwesterners! All we need is one admit this year so don't give up hope watersnake! Lol! "Shattered dreams!" I like your style jmb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watersnake Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Oh yeah, and congratulations or whatever. (jk, of course) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now