Personal fit vs professional fit

[pxa]

Hey guys!

 

I'm struggling to decide between the PhD program at Northwestern (Neuroscience) and at UCSD (Biology).

 

As a person, I'd be happier at UCSD. I always wanted to live in California - great weather all year + proximity to amazing national parks. Plus, UCSD is better ranked than Northwestern and I'm already feeling weird with the looks I get from my friends and family when I tell them I'm strongly considering Northwestern over UCSD. I know that this is completely stupid, but I feel pressured to stick with the higher ranked program.

 

As a researcher, I'd be happier at Northwestern. They are way more welcoming than the people at UCSD and they are doing all they can to bring me to their program. Plus, I've found a great fit with a professor - he is doing exactly what I want to do AND he is a great mentor. 

 

The problem is, if I go to Northwestern and things don't work out academically (what if I find out that the POI I loved isn't that great to work with in the end?), I'm stuck in Chicago, a city I don't really wanted to live in. If I go to UCSD, I'll probably live a healthier life, but I might get frustrated about not doing the kind of research I wanted to do, and working with people that aren't as friendly.

 

Soooooooooooooooo, I'm stuck. Please help!

[bsharpe269]

Are there other people at northwestern doing research in your area?

How many people at USCD are doing what you want to do?

[pxa]

Are there other people at northwestern doing research in your area?

How many people at USCD are doing what you want to do?

 

Yes, there are way more professors doing what I like at Northwestern than at UCSD. There are 2 professors at Northwestern that I would like to do rotations already, and one of them is simply amazing - I had a 2h meeting with him and I really liked him. I don't feel as enthusiastic about the professors I talked to from UCSD (3) and my top choice won't take students next year... 

[bsharpe269]

I would go to Northwestern, no question.

 

I wouldn't worry about ranking that much. Both of these schools have great reputations so you arent comparing harvard to some school no one has heard of. Keep in mind that your advisor/grad research aren't just going to affect the next 5 years of your life, they will have a hufe effect on your career. If you don't get training in the area of interest now, you won't be competitive for post docs in that area.

 

It sounds like you will be happier at Northwestern. Sure, it would be great to live in California but you could always head that direction for your postdoc or a job later if you really want to live there.

[SHolmes]

How much research have you done about UCSD? I interviewed with biomedical science, and they seemed really open to letting you work with basically any lab, including ones at Salk and Scripps. I would be doing a ton of searching to try to find faculty and talking to grad students/professors in any labs I find. I have also gotten in touch with people I hit it off with at recruitment to ask for some direction trying to find labs that better matched my research interests. But I'm from Florida so Chicago sounds absolutely miserable to me, and you might not be as adverse to it as I am!

 

That being said, I wouldn't worry too much about ranking. If your POIs at Northwestern have graduate students who got good postdocs/jobs, that's all that really matters (or so I've been told). Plus like the person above said, Northwestern is an awesome school too. 

 

I will say I got the same vibe as you did from UCSD - just didn't seem that friendly. But quality of life outside the lab matters almost as much as in it. I'm struggling with a similar decision. Good luck!

[fuzzylogician]

I wouldn't worry about the rankings too much. For me, the most important question is the research fit, and it sounds like Northwestern wins on that one. It sounds like you've already identified great mentors you'd like to work with and the program is friendlier than UCSD, so there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a great education there. More generally, planning according to 'what if I fail' seems less helpful than planning for success. You're going to grad school for a purpose, namely to obtain an education that will carry you on to the next stage in life (be it as a researcher, teacher, industry worker, or something else). I'd go to the place you expect to prepare you best, not to the place where you'll have a better life if the education plan doesn't quite work out.

[VioletAyame]

I wouldn't worry about the rankings too much. For me, the most important question is the research fit, and it sounds like Northwestern wins on that one. It sounds like you've already identified great mentors you'd like to work with and the program is friendlier than UCSD, so there is no reason why you shouldn't be able to get a great education there. More generally, planning according to 'what if I fail' seems less helpful than planning for success. You're going to grad school for a purpose, namely to obtain an education that will carry you on to the next stage in life (be it as a researcher, teacher, industry worker, or something else). I'd go to the place you expect to prepare you best, not to the place where you'll have a better life if the education plan doesn't quite work out.

 

Thank you fuzzy, I really needed to hear that. Granted that I already made my decision based on academic fit (and quite happy about it), I still have a cloud of fear over my head that what if the academic thing doesn't work out and I regret the life I could've had at other locations. But you're right, it's not reasonable or productive to come into a program thinking like that. I'll keep in mind that this school will give me the best education that I want and will lead to more opportunities for a long-term life at places I want

[fuzzylogician]

Thank you fuzzy, I really needed to hear that. Granted that I already made my decision based on academic fit (and quite happy about it), I still have a cloud of fear over my head that what if the academic thing doesn't work out and I regret the life I could've had at other locations. But you're right, it's not reasonable or productive to come into a program thinking like that. I'll keep in mind that this school will give me the best education that I want and will lead to more opportunities for a long-term life at places I want

 

I think the doubts are completely normal, but the thing is that you can never know what would have happened if... You make the best decision based on the information you have available at the time, and with some luck and some hard work, things work out in the end. It's rarely exactly as you'd planned, but that's just life.

[perpetuavix]

I'm struggling with this as well. I really think I would do better work at UW and have more potential advisors, but my life is in New York. My fiance also would prefer staying here (although he would come with me if I decided on UW). Right now, we've agreed to follow the money. I have full funding at UW and am waitlisted for funding at CUNY. If I don't hear from CUNY, we're going to Seattle (which makes me happy) and if the money does happen, we'll stay (which makes my fiance happy). 

[Lifesaver]

Honestly, it's so dependent on your personality.

 

For me, if I'm not happy WHERE I am, I'm not happy at all. It may sound stupid, but it's true. And my happiness level definitely affects my school work. So, why would I go somewhere I don't feel is a good fit for me/may make me unhappy and full of regret when it'll compremise my work. Granted, if the schools were not academically on-par, it make require a sacrifice. But if the two schools in consideration are both fabulous, I think I'd go with the happiness factor.

[fuzzylogician]

Honestly, it's so dependent on your personality.

 

For me, if I'm not happy WHERE I am, I'm not happy at all. It may sound stupid, but it's true. And my happiness level definitely affects my school work. So, why would I go somewhere I don't feel is a good fit for me/may make me unhappy and full of regret when it'll compremise my work. Granted, if the schools were not academically on-par, it make require a sacrifice. But if the two schools in consideration are both fabulous, I think I'd go with the happiness factor.

 

I wouldn't apply to places that I would not go to in the first place, so my basic assumption is that the places the OP is considering have the property of being possible places where they could be happy, even if they do have a preference from one location over the other. But I completely agree that for some people location can play a major role and I think it's a very important concern if you know that about yourself. 

[starofdawn]

Wanted to chime in and say I know exactly how you feel about UCSD. I haven't received any "friendly" or "warm" vibes either. Even when I accepted their admission offer, they didn't send a "Yay! Thanks for choosing us" email. It caused some doubts in my choice, but I wasn't surprised(did my undergrad at UCSD). UCSD requires their students to be independent. There is very little pampering. I'm completely fine with that - UCSD is the best choice for me, and I don't expect to be pampered. As long as I get to perform the research I want, get along with the professors, and graduate on time, I'll be happy. USC was much different, they were doing all they could to get me to join. I was tempted to pick USC, but the pampering ain't worth USC's $30K tuition.

 

Edit: I think my post sounded like I was trying to encourage OP to chose UCSD... didn't mean for it to sound like that! Just wanted to say I know what OP is feeling.

Edited April 10, 2014 by starofdawn

[pxa]

Thank you all for the input!!

 

I guess I'm still learning to deal with "what ifs". But life is quite surprising, isn't it? Northwestern was at the bottom of my list when I was applying, but it made its way to the top! 

 

It's interesting (perhaps sad?) to hear that I was not the only one who felt this "not so friendly" vibe from UCSD. My current advisor did her post-doc at UCSD and she warned me that UCSD is highly hierarchical and competitive. She also said that you have to look out for yourself, because it is not unusual to do a 7 years PhD without publications. I consider myself very independent too, but a cooperative work environment is always better than a highly competitive one.

 

Sure, it would be great to live in California but you could always head that direction for your postdoc or a job later if you really want to live there.

A lot of people are telling me that! But I have the genuine fear that this might be my last shot in a rather long time to live in California. Why? I feel that from now on (after the PhD), research fit is going to be my priority and there are way more opportunities for post-docs in cold places than in warm places - Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, north of US... Also, after the PhD, I'll be almost 30. That's also scary.

[TakeruK]

A lot of people are telling me that! But I have the genuine fear that this might be my last shot in a rather long time to live in California. Why? I feel that from now on (after the PhD), research fit is going to be my priority and there are way more opportunities for post-docs in cold places than in warm places - Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, north of US... Also, after the PhD, I'll be almost 30. That's also scary.

 

I took the chance to live in California during my PhD when I got it! The majority of my schools I applied to were in California primarily for the location reason. I would say location is important but so is the department culture--it doesn't sound like your UCSD department is a good fit for you. But whether that outweighs the location is for you to decide!

 

Instead, I want to put in my 2 cents about this statement you wrote here! I agree with you immensely -- a PhD is a long time and I want to be in a place where I'm happy. I'll be lucky if I graduate before I turn 30! Fortunately, post-docs are much shorter than PhDs though, so 2 years in a cold place might not be so bad. 

 

My philosophy on location is that an academic job is a tough dream to chase and we will probably have to sacrifice a lot for it. It is not even a sure thing so I would be hesitant to be always living in the future. I am afraid the scenario will be: "Well, this grad school place sucks, but it'll be better later", then "Well this post doc place sucks, but it'll be better later", then I might not even have an academic job offer, or chances are, the tenure track position offer is also in a place I don't want to be. I don't want to spend the next 10 years of my life being unhappy and only living for the future! 

 

So, my philosophy is to only chase the dream as long as I am happy doing it. If I didn't get into schools in places I liked, I would have not done a PhD. If I don't get postdocs that pay well and are in places I would be willing to live, I am going to quit academia. So I am in support of the argument to take the chances now, when you have them, don't count on them appearing again later. However, in your shoes, I would not be certain that the unfriendly atmosphere of the department in UCSD is worth the location.

[fuzzylogician]

A lot of people are telling me that! But I have the genuine fear that this might be my last shot in a rather long time to live in California. Why? I feel that from now on (after the PhD), research fit is going to be my priority and there are way more opportunities for post-docs in cold places than in warm places - Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, north of US... Also, after the PhD, I'll be almost 30. That's also scary.

 

I have to agree with you that now is your best chance to get to live in California. You'll have fewer and fewer options as you progress in academia, and it'll be less and less possible to choose your next location based on geographical preferences. Not impossible of course and your options may depend on your field, but if you're offered a good postdoc or good job it's going to be very hard to turn it down because it's not your favorite location, if otherwise it's the right thing for your career. This was definitely a consideration for me when I was choosing schools; given my top two choices, I preferred a large city over a small town and that played a big role in the decision. Still didn't go with a school in a much better location (California, in fact) because academically it wasn't as good an option as the other two schools I was considering (both in a cold New England state), but that's me and my preferences. Now that I'm moving on to a postdoc, location didn't factor into the equation at all because it was much more about survival in my field and for that I just went with the best academic option I had available. As it turns out, I'll be in an even colder, snowier place next year than now. Can't tell you I'm looking forward to it, but I'm sure I'll learn to deal with it.

 

I think your preference is completely valid. The worry is that the department doesn't sound like a good place academically, and I'd really worry about that, if I were you. Could you thrive there and have a good education that will prepare you for the career you'd like to have after you graduate? From your description that didn't sound like a sure thing at all. 

[ss2player]

A lot of people are telling me that! But I have the genuine fear that this might be my last shot in a rather long time to live in California. Why? I feel that from now on (after the PhD), research fit is going to be my priority and there are way more opportunities for post-docs in cold places than in warm places - Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Canada, north of US... Also, after the PhD, I'll be almost 30. That's also scary.

 

As someone who will be 32-33 when they graduate, that's adorable. 

But I agree with everyone that it sounds like day to day life at UCSD would be bad for you. You can't be at the beach all the time, broheim! Better to have a good working environment than not, plus it's not like Chicago is Timbuktu, it's a fabulous city in its own right.

Edited April 11, 2014 by ss2player

[pxa]

Thank you, thank you!!! 

 

I've finally made the decision: Northwestern. I'm a little bit sad that it's not going to be sunny every day during the next 5 years of my life, BUT the academic fit is more important to me. Also, my optimistic side is telling me that, if I do a great PhD in the area I love, I could go to UCSF for my post-doc. UCSF was actually my first choice during the application process, but I was rejected there. Alternatively, if my life is going to be cold place after cold place, I might as well learn now how to deal with snow stuff the best way possible.

 

Again, thank you all!!   

[VioletAyame]

Thank you, thank you!!!

I've finally made the decision: Northwestern. I'm a little bit sad that it's not going to be sunny every day during the next 5 years of my life, BUT the academic fit is more important to me. Also, my optimistic side is telling me that, if I do a great PhD in the area I love, I could go to UCSF for my post-doc. UCSF was actually my first choice during the application process, but I was rejected there. Alternatively, if my life is going to be cold place after cold place, I might as well learn now how to deal with snow stuff the best way possible.

Again, thank you all!!

God that's exactly my thinking process. I'm leaving California for Ohio this fall, and I often wonder if it's some kind of self-hatred. But Ohio is the better choice academically, and hopefully it will open doors for me to come back to California some day. And if not, like you said, better learn to deal with the snow now

Edited April 12, 2014 by VioletAyame

[juilletmercredi]

I actually think that if you choose carefully for grad school, you have more choices on the back end for your postdoc and academic job.  If you go to a well-reputed program, work with a great advisor and are reasonably productive, then you have a better shot at the plum jobs in desirable locations.  That's not to say that you can't be productive at a UC, but you're more likely to really push things out if you are working on projects that interest you.  Although I chose a postdoc in a location most people would not consider desirable (because there were other factors, plus I really like the town) I feel like the opportunities were many for me to apply successfully to postdocs in more-desirable places - partially because of the excellent connections I have here at my university.  Some of these postdoc offers were sent me directly from professors in my program who went to grad school with or otherwise worked with the people who needed a postdoc, and two people at my university have directly asked me if I would postdoc for them.  (I wanted to leave, so I said no, but given that my city is a place most people would like to live in, that's a plus).

 

So you never know who your advisors at Northwestern will know and how they will hook you up.