Preparing for a Psy.D application vs. Ph.D application

[mielle0930]

Hello everyone,

 

I am a recently graduated Psychology major, wanting to attend graduate school to become a clinical psychologist. I initially applied to 10 Ph.D programs with the thought that I would get into at least one! ( I have a 3.84 GPA, decent GRE scores, worked in multiple research labs, but only assisted with "menial" tasks like data coding, literature searches...and so on)  However, I realized I was quite naive and apparently under qualified - so, I am in preparation for round two of applications for the next year. 

 

This is my current issue: I initially thought that an additional year would be enough to boost up my application if I were to volunteer in a research lab and work mostly full time as a research assistant and increase my GRE scores a bit.  But, when I talked to my advising professor, I was told that in order to get into a top tier Ph.D program in clinical psychology, I must have at least a minimum of 2-3 years of substantial research experience (either a paid lab manager position, research assistant, publications...etc.) and that an additional year of research (especially if there are no publications) will not be enough to even make it to a so-so Ph.D program. I originally debated between applying to both Ph.D programs and Psy.D programs because my main interest was more into working as a clinician, rather than remaining in academia. However, I leaned toward a Ph.D, due to the fact that is is mostly funded, while Psy.D's are out of pocket and I also don't mind research work.

 

With that in mind, I'm not so sure if I can handle investing 2-3+ years of research/lab manager work, and IF I get into a Ph.D program 5+ years of research.

 

- Is it really true that I would need to prepare for 2-3 years (post graduation) as a research assistant in order to make it into a decent Ph.D program?

- Is there anything I can do within a year to boost up my application and get into a decent program?

- I am also thinking of applying to more Psy.D programs. Do they also require an extensive research/preparation period in order to get accepted? How would a Psy.D program differ in requirements/qualifications besides a good GPA, GRE, recommendation, and SOP?

 

Any advice would help me out immensely!!

 

Thank you!

[Lisa44201]

Apply to Master's programs that have a Thesis component. You'll have hands-on research experience, you should be able to publish your Thesis at least as a poster presentation at a conference, and you'll gain additional statistics skills. There are some funded Master's programs in existence (I went to one). PsyD programs vary widely in their quality of education; the ones that are well-regarded by the psychology community (APA-accredited internship match rates over 80%, good EPPP pass rates, etc.) are often just as competitive as PhD programs. 

[PsychGirl1]

Agree re: master's. It is a nice way to dip your toe in it, get research experience, and figure out exactly what your career goals are :-)

[Munashi]

The master's can be a great route.  However, it is still going to take an additional 1-2 years (I say 1 because some people do apply mid-masters and leave before the second year if they are accepted to PhD programs).  I think you should consider trying to land a paid research coordinator positions for the following reasons:

 

-The research is full time. With a Master's, you have coursework to worry about on top of it.

-There may be more opportunities for publications by working full-time in a lab (this will vary by lab and by the MA program you compare it to, but it is entirely possible)

-A research position is paid. You will have extra costs/possibly debt by taking on a masters

 

However, if you are limited by geography (perhaps there are not many labs with openings in your area and you are not comfortable relocating), the master's may be the better option.  Neither one is going to hurt you and both paths will greatly help your application strength.  It's just worth considering the pros and cons of each situation.

[QASP]

...when I talked to my advising professor, I was told that in order to get into a top tier Ph.D program in clinical psychology, I must have at least a minimum of 2-3 years of substantial research experience (either a paid lab manager position, research assistant, publications...etc.) and that an additional year of research (especially if there are no publications) will not be enough to even make it to a so-so Ph.D program. 

 

...

 

- Is it really true that I would need to prepare for 2-3 years (post graduation) as a research assistant in order to make it into a decent Ph.D program?

- Is there anything I can do within a year to boost up my application and get into a decent program?

- I am also thinking of applying to more Psy.D programs. Do they also require an extensive research/preparation period in order to get accepted? How would a Psy.D program differ in requirements/qualifications besides a good GPA, GRE, recommendation, and SOP?

 

Any advice would help me out immensely!!

 

Thank you!

 

I actually do not think you are getting great advice from that professor; 1-2 years of  research experience is enough to get into Ph.D. programs. It sounds like you may not be getting the best possible experience though. Programs want to see you are capable of some level of "independent" research and not just performing those simpler lab functions. Publications aren't necessary for acceptance, but having poster presentations or similar is a big boost.

 

Three things you can do, in a year: 1.) try to get more involved in the research, doing enough work to at least be included on a presentation (can be difficult, some professors are stingier with this than others). 2.) improve GRE scores so that they are impressive. 3.) work on "fit" and your personal statements. This is SO important to the application process, and so often overlooked. You want to find professors who do the type of research that interests you, and write a personal statement that is really tailored to them and the program you are applying to.

 

In terms of Psy.D. programs, the reputable programs have the same standards as Ph.D. programs; Baylor and Rutgers are (as I hear) great, but the standards for getting in are high-- and personally I wouldn't risk the possible debt at Rutgers, making Baylor the only real option in my mind for a Psy.D. Many Ph.D. programs are not at all research focused and primarily train clinicians (and prefer students who want to be clinicians), as long as you can express a passion for research in addition to clinical work in your personal statement.

[Realities]

I also agree that you are not getting great advice from that professor.  I applied to PhD programs straight out of undergrad and got into several good programs, with about 1.5-2 years research experience while in undergrad (and several presentations, but no publications).  I agree with what QASP is saying, especially regarding emphasizing your fit with the professors you are applying to.

 

Whatever you do, I would absolutely recommend trying to apply to funded programs, rather than paying your way.  The cost/benefit ratio in the long run supports this route, even if it takes you a year or two to gain more experience before applying again.

 

Good luck!

[mielle0930]

Thank you all for your advice!

 

It has been quite a struggle for me to decide whether I really need to defer applying to 2-3 years later vs. applying next season. 

 

Because I have already applied previously, I really want to be thorough in strengthening my application. I've heard mixed opinions about applying to a Master's program because apparently Ph.D programs do not necessarily see it as benefit - rather professors would want someone who they are able to work with all 5-6years. 

 

QASP and Realities - Thanks for the hopeful advice. I will probably continue to work as a volunteer with a PI at my university and look for lab manager positions as they are available.

 

As for applying to Psy.D programs - basically, they are not anymore "easier" than Ph.D programs (especially if they are well regarded)? So, It would take similar preparation for the applications, right?

Edited May 30, 2014 by mielle0930

[Saman]

I also agree that you are not getting great advice from that professor.  I applied to PhD programs straight out of undergrad and got into several good programs, with about 1.5-2 years research experience while in undergrad (and several presentations, but no publications).  I agree with what QASP is saying, especially regarding emphasizing your fit with the professors you are applying to.

 

Whatever you do, I would absolutely recommend trying to apply to funded programs, rather than paying your way.  The cost/benefit ratio in the long run supports this route, even if it takes you a year or two to gain more experience before applying again.

 

Good luck!

 

Hi Realities,

 

Would applicants aspiring for a Ph.D must require lab exp e.g. working under a professor as RA or performing some calculations with those statistical algorithms ?? I have two publications- one is non peer reviewed and one is a peer reviewed as a research experience. Would this research experience be enough to get me in doctoral program or I have to wait until i get a chance to work under the supervision of some professors to get in. Please let me know, your views would be appreciated.      

[Realities]

Hi Realities,

 

Would applicants aspiring for a Ph.D must require lab exp e.g. working under a professor as RA or performing some calculations with those statistical algorithms ?? I have two publications- one is non peer reviewed and one is a peer reviewed as a research experience. Would this research experience be enough to get me in doctoral program or I have to wait until i get a chance to work under the supervision of some professors to get in. Please let me know, your views would be appreciated.      

 

Research experience, especially quality research experience, is extremely important in gaining admission to a PhD program.  This means doing more meaningful tasks than just simple data entry - for example, try to help with posters/presentations and volunteer for more difficult tasks as well.  If you have publications, particularly peer-reviewed pubs, you are in good shape.  Not only will research experience show that you know what you're getting yourself into by pursuing a PhD, it will also yield you favorable letters of recommendation for the process (hopefully).

 

I'm not sure what you mean about getting a chance to work under the supervision of some professors.  Ideally, you should already be working in labs under professors as a part of your research experience.  If you mean working under the professors you are hoping to do your PhD in, then no, I would say that that is not necessary.

[Realities]

As for applying to Psy.D programs - basically, they are not anymore "easier" than Ph.D programs (especially if they are well regarded)? So, It would take similar preparation for the applications, right?

 

What are your long term goals?  Do you want to do solely clinical work, or are you interested in both research and clinical work?

 

I have no experience applying to PsyD programs, but I would assume that the application process isn't too different.  Research is probably less emphasized in the PsyD programs (for obvious reasons) than in PhD programs, however.  What you'll really want to do if you're planning to apply PsyD (or to a mixture of both) is check out internship match rates carefully.  Many PsyD programs, especially the for-profit/professional schools have horrendous match rates and are essentially diploma mills.  That, and be sure to check out how students are funded at schools - in my opinion, it isn't worth taking out $200k+ in debt given the average income of a psychologist...

[Saman]

Research experience, especially quality research experience, is extremely important in gaining admission to a PhD program.  This means doing more meaningful tasks than just simple data entry - for example, try to help with posters/presentations and volunteer for more difficult tasks as well.  If you have publications, particularly peer-reviewed pubs, you are in good shape.  Not only will research experience show that you know what you're getting yourself into by pursuing a PhD, it will also yield you favorable letters of recommendation for the process (hopefully).

 

I'm not sure what you mean about getting a chance to work under the supervision of some professors.  Ideally, you should already be working in labs under professors as a part of your research experience.  If you mean working under the professors you are hoping to do your PhD in, then no, I would say that that is not necessary.

 

Thank you for that input. I did my research on my own, I didn't do it under any supervisor rather I consulted some friends and mostly journals which helped to get through. Both the papers were independent projects. This led me to ask you the second question whether it is necessary to work with/under any professor because my pubs are independent. I hope you got the point now      

[Guest joshw4288]

Thank you for that input. I did my research on my own, I didn't do it under any supervisor rather I consulted some friends and mostly journals which helped to get through. Both the papers were independent projects. This led me to ask you the second question whether it is necessary to work with/under any professor because my pubs are independent. I hope you got the point now      

This makes it apparent that you have not conducted any empirical research. This is what you will need. Yes, you need to work with professors on empirical research.

[clinicalpsychphd20]

I think one thing that PsyD programs really like - in addition to research experience - is clinical experience. A good thing would be to get involved with hotlines. 

[mielle0930]

What are your long term goals?  Do you want to do solely clinical work, or are you interested in both research and clinical work?

 

I have no experience applying to PsyD programs, but I would assume that the application process isn't too different.  Research is probably less emphasized in the PsyD programs (for obvious reasons) than in PhD programs, however.  What you'll really want to do if you're planning to apply PsyD (or to a mixture of both) is check out internship match rates carefully.  Many PsyD programs, especially the for-profit/professional schools have horrendous match rates and are essentially diploma mills.  That, and be sure to check out how students are funded at schools - in my opinion, it isn't worth taking out $200k+ in debt given the average income of a psychologist...

 

Currently, I want to be involved with clinical work. I've heard many grad students end up changing their minds during their Ph.D. and becoming more open to research, but I'm not sure how likely that will happen for me. The main reason I chose to pursue a Ph.D was due to funding, but if my lack of research experience is deferring me from getting into a Ph.D program, I was just wondering if I would be better off by applying to Psy.D's even though they are costly.

 

I think one thing that PsyD programs really like - in addition to research experience - is clinical experience. A good thing would be to get involved with hotlines. 

 

I have had a semester of experience as an intern for a local mental health center - mostly observing/ co-facilitating therapy groups, taking patient notes, discharge paperwork...etc. I'm wondering if that will be acceptable enough for Psy.D programs. Since my ultimate goal is becoming a clinician, I'm wavering in the fact of whether I should invest more time to work as a lab manager/assistant and research, or rather maybe look for clinical opportunities in mental health centers and just apply again for the fall of 2015.

Edited June 3, 2014 by mielle0930

[Saman]

This makes it apparent that you have not conducted any empirical research. This is what you will need. Yes, you need to work with professors on empirical research.

 

Joshw4288,

 

What do you mean I didn't do any empirical research. My paper has been successfully submitted after being peer-reviewed. There was no such methodological flaw which makes it 'not empirical'. You mean to say that any research would be called empirical if it is performed under somebody's supervision ?? There are lots of people out there who undertake many independent projects on their own because they don't feel in anyway that they need somebody's advice or supervision. If you think that no body on the planet can write research paper without somebody's supervision, then I'm sorry to say that you are wrong and would like to suggest you to have a look around. You will find many cases similar to mine.     

 

Awaiting response   

[QASP]

Currently, I want to be involved with clinical work. I've heard many grad students end up changing their minds during their Ph.D. and becoming more open to research, but I'm not sure how likely that will happen for me. The main reason I chose to pursue a Ph.D was due to funding, but if my lack of research experience is deferring me from getting into a Ph.D program, I was just wondering if I would be better off by applying to Psy.D's even though they are costly.

 

 

The value of this degree is really very low, monetarily speaking. The ROI is basically negative for the type of Psy.D. that you have to pay for out of pocket. Think long and hard about it before considering this. You are better off waiting a couple years and getting solid research experience than jumping in now and having a low paying degree and hundreds of thousands of debt just to be able to start/finish sooner.

[Cog-Neuro Guy]

I would have to say I would disagree with some of the posters in here in regards to viewing the Psy.D. in such a poor manner. With a caveat, the better Psy.D. programs typically are housed within a university whether it be part of a department or its own "school" within the university. The most important factors to consider are APA-internship match rates, licensure rates and attrition rates (after factoring the cost, most range between $21-41,000 a year, it just depends). Cost is something to consider, however, after that variable is considered, if you want to pay for your degree to practice, make sure your money is spent wisely on a reputable Psy.D. program and not one that just produces mediocre graduates. Some programs you may consider are Baylor, Rutgers, Loyola University of Maryland, Nova Southeastern University, Widener University just to name a few. Their stats are pretty good and their placements of employment are nice. 

 

To provide some "evidence" or "professional opinion" which comes from my mentor whom is the past president for APA Div. 40 (Clinical Neuropsychology), the Psy.D. is a great fit for those who really do seek to be a clinician, practice within a hospital, clinic or private practice. You should also consider your patient populations you want to work with as these are also important when considering a Ph.D. or Psy.D. program. Nova Southeastern University is the main public psychiatric provider for the greater Ft. Lauderdale/ Miami area. They have at least 60 internship sites that allows you to gain experience with virtually ANY population you seek to test out and treat. Again, while it is expensive, you are paying for a good product so to speak. 

 

I will be applying to 4-5 Psy.D. clinical psychology programs, 3-4 Ph.D. counseling psychology programs and 1 Ph.D. clinical psychology program. Also, a topic that most people don't discuss; if you have less than stellar GRE's or a lower GPA, Psy.D. programs are more "accepting" of these variables due to the fact that you are paying for the education and they know the animosity that is thrown towards Psy.D.'s in general. Basic economics. If you can't see yourself doing substantial amount of research, 5 years will be rough. Another factor to consider is the National Health Service Corp. (http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/). Roughly, 4500 spots are given to primary health care clinicians a year. (dental, mental, physician, nurse pract.). Roughly, you are paid $50,000 a year in salary and an additional $30,000 is paid to your federal or private student loan lender(s) for every year of service. So, that is roughly a net value of $80,000 in pay, ($50,000 to take home, $30,000 is applied to your loans by the government). If you do this for 9 years, $200,000 in loans are paid off.

 

Again, lots of people jump to conclusions about the costs associated with it (which is important), but not many people are mentioning or recognizing the potentials and support provided for those who want to provide psychological care via a Psy.D. 

Edited June 8, 2014 by Cog-Neuro Guy

[helioaura]

Cog-Neuro Guy:

 

That was a very thorough and comforting response on the PsyD programs, as I am planning to apply for the upcoming Fall 2015. The national Health Service Corps info is also super helpful! Thank you

[PsyDGirl]

Mielle0930

 

I felt compelled to post as I was in this exact position only a year ago. I'd decided I wanted to go back and pursue my MA after almost 10 years of being out of school. After I finished a terminal MA program, I knew that I needed to follow my dream of becoming a psychologist. So I visited the school of my choice (in Canada) and asked for the realistic, non-sugared version of my chances on getting in. I had no research experience to speak of but relevant clinical experience in the "real world." I was told that even if I volunteered in the lab for 2 years, I still would not be "on par" with their applying students. I was also told that since over 200 people apply and 2 are accepted each year, perhaps a PsyD would better meet my skills and experience (although I was disappointed, I appreciated the honesty and really didn't want to waste valuable time).

 

I considered that advice carefully and weighed my option of volunteering for 2 years, and continuing to apply each year (for probably the next 10 years) or get on with my life, accept the debt of a non-funded program and get going with it. (3 more years of debt, versus Ma or PsyD salary once done.....the ROI made sense to me) I applied and got accepted to a relatively new PsyD program at Alaska Pacific University. I love that I can focus on my area of interest and I'm still meeting my own goals on the side - being accepted for conference presentations and working on publishing. Although it is not research based and they cannot provide much in the way of support with my research projects, I am excelling in the program due to my clinical experience and am pretty confident in my ability to direct my career the way I want. I think that if you are self-motivated and driven, you can make anything happen (perhaps I'm just optimistic though).

 

Good luck with your decision and I'd be happy to talk through pm if you want to explore it further!

[juilletmercredi]

 There are lots of people out there who undertake many independent projects on their own because they don't feel in anyway that they need somebody's advice or supervision.  

 

If they are undergraduates, they are wrong.  You need someone to train you in the proper research methods and conventions for your field.  Even the geniuses worked under the advisement/supervision of someone else in the early days.  Besides, even if you are a genius and your research stands independently, the academic world works on networking (just like everything else).  You need someone who has supervised your research to write you a letter of recommendation their peers at your desired programs.

 

As for OP - here is my opinion on the admissions, although others may disagree.

 

1) 2-3 years as a lab manager is better than an MA.  Many, many psychology programs will not accept any credits from an MA or will accept at most a semester, so it doesn't significantly reduce your time to degree.  And as someone already pointed out, MAs cost money while manager positions pay you AND lab manager positions are full-time research while MA programs will require other tasks.  I also think that professors just look more favorably upon full-time post-college research experience than they do on MAs.  So if you need to do something in the interim to improve your applications, looking for an RA or lab manager position is preferable to the MA.

 

2) I think there are two main schools of people who look down on the PsyD.

 

The first are the hardcore researchers with PhDs who still ascribe to the Boulder model - who believe that good clinicians should be educated as scientist-practitioners.  They believe that science informs practice and vice versa, and that a good clinical psychologist will get clinical and scientific training in tandem, the way PhD programs do it.  A lot of these professors are also researchers and they value research over other kinds of tasks like service provision and teaching, so the looking down the nose is sort of because PsyD programs focus primarily on clinical work over research.  I think you can take their advice with a grain of salt, because their values are simply different.  PsyD programs teach you how to be a responsible consumer of research so that you are using the latest evidence-based clinical practice in your work, and that's the kind of research you need to know.  You don't necessarily need to know how to run experiments, IMO, to be a good clinical service provider.

 

The other camp is skeptical about PsyDs mainly because of the cost.  I have to admit that I am in this camp.  The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that the mean annual wage of clinical, counseling, and school psychologists is $72,710 (the median is $67,760).  A salary of $112,000 would put a clinical psychologist in the 90th percentile for this job field.  PsyD programs are mostly self-pay.  Loyola Maryland, for example, charges $29,000 in tuition in the first two years; by year 4 it has gone down to a bit under $28,000.  Just the tuition alone over four years is $114,000.  But you will also have to borrow for living expenses, because doctoral programs are designed to be intensive and you can't really work enough to afford living expenses.  Even if you lived very frugally on $20,000 a year, that's still $80,000 + $114,000 = $194,000 in debt for a career that will probably pay you around $70-90K/year.  That's MD-level debt for a career that pays less than half what the average MD makes.  And Loyola Maryland is middling; some PsyD programs are much more expensive.

 

So basically, unless there are some public university PsyD programs that are significantly cheaper, PsyD programs don't really seem to make financial sense - you will go into more debt than you can reasonably expect to repay.  The National Health Service Corps program is wonderful and extremely competitive, and my sense is that most of those positions go to physical health providers (physicians, nurses, physician assistants, and other allied health professionals there).  You can't really rely on potentially winning one of these post-graduation scholarships because if you don't, you're stuck with the debt.

 

The question is not about whether or not you are paying for a good product; it's whether you are paying for one that you can afford.  A BMW is an excellent car, by all accounts.  That doesn't matter, though, because I can't afford a BMW, so I made a different choice when it came to purchasing a means for transportation.  IMO it is far better to "delay" a few years and get valuable experience to end up with no debt than it is to jump into something because you want to go through fast and end up drowning in debt.  And I know it's easy to say on the other side - but really, in the long run those 2-3 extra years will fly.

 

I will say that James Madison's PsyD program is well-respected and offers decent financial aid: a tuition waiver and a $14,500 stipend guaranteed for 3 years. http://www.psyc.jmu.edu/cipsyd/financial.html.  I believe the 4th year is spent in internship, and the expectation is that you find a paid one.

 

*

 

Another piece of advice: if you want to be a therapist/clinician primarily and have little interest in research, why not consider doing an MSW and getting licensed as a clinical social worker?  I have a few friends that have done this.  LCSWs actually provide the bulk of mental health services in the U.S. - I think something like 70%.  They get reimbursed by insurance companies and can set up their own practices and such.  The difference is that you can go to a public university and earn an MSW for cheaper than you could a PsyD.  Even if you went to an expensive private, the MSW would be half the cost because it's half the time.

 

You can also later earn a PhD or a DSW if you really wanted a doctoral degree.  I have two friends doing PhDs in social work and another who already has one.  There are many teaching opportunities within the field because it's a very specialized degree (schools of social work will often only hire people with a PhD + an MSW and 2 years of social work experience, because that's what's required by their accreditation bodies).  You could do direct clinical work, research and teaching, or community org/nonprofit work.

 

There's also the option of a master's in mental health counseling and getting licensed as an LPC, although these regulations vary state by state.