DO NOT apply to Wisconsin Madison

[Igotnothin]

Strawman arguments don't really help your case.

 

Nothing you've shown so far indicates a zero probability of acceptance. The fact that at least one international student was admitted, in fact, shows the opposite.

 

Have you read the e-mail that the OP posted? Take another look. Read it a few times. Read the part that I highlighted. The admissions committee member stated that international applications are frequently not reviewed.

 

Let me make a real simple word problem for you. If all positions are filled in phase 1, what is the probability that an applicant in phase 2 is accepted? There's a brain buster.

[Eigen]

First, there is nothing anywhere that says the email was written by an admission committee member. Most schools don't disclose who's on the admissions committee. It was likely written by a program coordinator or graduate secretary, who may or may not know exactly where in the process things are.

 

Second, you can make it a real world problem all you like, but the truth is that you're inferring things from an email that were not there, and judging accordingly. Kind of like inferring that the email was from the admissions committee, despite there being no evidence of that, at all.

 

And as I've pointed out with your "real world" problem, in the actual real world of graduate admissions, there are always spots that open up late in the season for qualified applicants. 

 

I'm positive that in February they didn't have signed acceptances from everyone who they extended an offer to, which makes the next set of applicant files those that will be reviewed and ranked in case some from the first set don't accept (usually 30-50% don't accept an offer). 

 

Again, there is no direct evidence that any student did not have their file reviewed. 

[Igotnothin]

All right so now you're saying that the person who replied to the e-mail on behalf of the department doesn't really know how applications are reviewed? Interesting theory. 

[GeoDUDE!]

You've got nothing.

[ballwera]

I'd say this happens at a lot of schools they just aren't up front about it....if their students are paid by grants or certain other methods, then you must be a citizen to receive these funds..also with international students you have to deal with visa issues and any number of other things. As an American if I choose to apply abroad, I assume I would be at the bottom of the list as I should be... I'm a bit confused as to why people don't have the same mentality when it comes to U.S schools....Heck U.S students face this when applying to certain schools out of state...

[Between Fields]

Have you read the e-mail that the OP posted? Take another look. Read it a few times. Read the part that I highlighted. The admissions committee member stated that international applications are frequently not reviewed.

 

Let me make a real simple word problem for you. If all positions are filled in phase 1, what is the probability that an applicant in phase 2 is accepted? There's a brain buster.

 

The probability is already astronomically low, domestic or not. The semantics of the word review aside, putting the applications in two piles -- domestic and international -- is part of the evaluative process. Like it or not, being an international applicant makes you more expensive to support, and that is a legitimate reason for considering your application less highly. Even with similar educational qualifications, a domestic applicant is always going to have that edge. With that being said, it is entirely probable that the domestic applications don't contain enough qualified applicants to make a cohort or that the research fit just isn't there. 

 

First, there is nothing anywhere that says the email was written by an admission committee member. Most schools don't disclose who's on the admissions committee. It was likely written by a program coordinator or graduate secretary, who may or may not know exactly where in the process things are.

 

Totally. The review process is done by a committee of faculty members. Faculty members hate being rushed and don't often give updates on their process until their done. It's completely possible that a secretary or director wouldn't have any idea on the status until it gets back to the department-level approval process.

 

All right so now you're saying that the person who replied to the e-mail on behalf of the department doesn't really know how applications are reviewed? Interesting theory. 

 

Eigen didn't say that at all.

[TakeruK]

The probability is already astronomically low, domestic or not. The semantics of the word review aside, putting the applications in two piles -- domestic and international -- is part of the evaluative process. Like it or not, being an international applicant makes you more expensive to support, and that is a legitimate reason for considering your application less highly. Even with similar educational qualifications, a domestic applicant is always going to have that edge. With that being said, it is entirely probable that the domestic applications don't contain enough qualified applicants to make a cohort or that the research fit just isn't there. 

 

In addition, there is some advantage for a school to take international student. I was a grad student rep at my MSc department meeting with a university administrator. He visited our department and told the professors that the department should take more international students when possible to increase the school's reputation. The profs asked if the University would provide more funds for the department to afford more international students and the administrator hesitated and said...no 

 

Most schools do want to have some fraction of international students and what this fraction is could really depend on how much money they have in any given year. A lot of departments have budgets that change each year and they do not necessarily know how much they have during the application season. So, they might only find out that they don't have additional funds for international students this year well after the application deadline and if there aren't enough funds, they have to reject all international applicants. Or, they will only make an exception for someone with perfect grades and GREs. 

 

So, when they solicit applications, they need to encourage all students to apply since they don't know if they will fill all the spots with domestic students or not. Also, they want to see if there are any super exceptional international students. So, they collect applications despite a very low admission rate (based on history or whatever) and wait and see what happens. Frequently, because of the funding or whatever, they only take domestic students. Nothing wrong with that. It would be nice if the school published that e.g. 10% of students are international and they take 8 students total per year or something so that students know the chances are low, but that's not necessary.

[Igotnothin]

Then what is the point of questioning the e-mailer's knowledge of the review process? Our entire debate is predicated on the information provided in this short e-mail. My argument is that if all spots are frequently filled in phase 1, the school is in the wrong. Your counterargument is that maybe all spots are not frequently filled in phase 1. That's not even a counterargument - that's changing the topic of the debate.

[TakeruK]

Then what is the point of questioning the e-mailer's knowledge of the review process? Our entire debate is predicated on the information provided in this short e-mail. My argument is that if all spots are frequently filled in phase 1, the school is in the wrong. Your counterargument is that maybe all spots are not frequently filled in phase 1. That's not even a counterargument - that's changing the topic of the debate.

 

Let's go back to the basic argument.

 

You say that if all the spots are frequently filled in phase 1, then the school should do what.....?

 

1) the school should not actually accept any applications from outside the US?

-- This results in a worse outcome than the current one since everyone loses. The school doesn't get exceptional international students and exceptional international students don't get a chance to attend.

 

2) refund application fees from applications outside the US if phase 1 fills all the spots?

-- By this logic, the school should refund all fees from any students from any demographic that rarely get accepted (including low GPAs etc.) Again, the fee is collected for the privilege of applying to the school, not for anything else.

 

3) tell students about this procedure when they apply to the school?

-- Yes, I agree that schools should be as transparent as possible and provide this information on the program website. But it's not unethical to not do so. 

[Igotnothin]

I believe that the department has an obligation to review all applications that they receive. The only way they can make justifiable decisions on who to admit, weighing various factors including residency, is to look at every application. The way UW-Madison seems to operate, the most qualified applicant in a given year might never even have his or her application reviewed. That's crazy to me. And it's not fair to the international applicants.

[GeoDUDE!]

I believe that the department has an obligation to review all applications that they receive. The only way they can make justifiable decisions on who to admit, weighing various factors including residency, is to look at every application. The way UW-Madison seems to operate, the most qualified applicant in a given year might never even have his or her application reviewed. That's crazy to me. And it's not fair to the international applicants.

 

 

It's not up to the applicants to decide who is qualified. They are obviously doing something right if their applicants are getting upset they do not get in. 

 

The power of true education is a simple awareness that you are not the center of the universe. That all the problems, people that get in your way are not personal; any state institution has its obligations. You can decide these things are unfair, thats your choice, but I guarantee that you will be miserable for very little reason. There are many arguments outlined above, all of them plausible. You can think that the department is trying to raise the # of applicants that apply to their program for some malicious reason, but why not consider the other options?

 

Why should international students have an even playing field with the domestic students? Do international students pay taxes to run the university? 

 

You obviously know better, as you make statements like "The only way they can make justifiable decisions on who to admit, weighing various factors including residency, is to look at every application."

 

POIs get emailed every month, asking if they are taking new grad students for the upcoming cycle. Often times, POIs have an idea of who they want to admit, should they tell the others to not apply? Why would they, what if their top pick decides to go somewhere else? 

 

Why should applicants have an advantage over the institution when the institution bears all the financial risk in accepting a student?

[Igotnothin]

They are obviously doing something right if their applicants are getting upset they do not get in.

 

Never heard that one before.

 

It's not up to the applicants to decide who is qualified.

 

 

But to decide who is qualified, you need to open the envelope...

[GeoDUDE!]

 

 

But to decide who is qualified, you need to open the envelope...

 

When you pay someone to perform some job/task, you can decide on both application fees and qualifications. Why can't they?

[Igotnothin]

l really don't know what you're driving at. 

[Justin123]

I'd say this happens at a lot of schools they just aren't up front about it....if their students are paid by grants or certain other methods, then you must be a citizen to receive these funds..also with international students you have to deal with visa issues and any number of other things. As an American if I choose to apply abroad, I assume I would be at the bottom of the list as I should be... I'm a bit confused as to why people don't have the same mentality when it comes to U.S schools....Heck U.S students face this when applying to certain schools out of state...

This is quite offensive and it shows that you didn't think this through at all. Do you think that universities accept international students out of charity? Of course not. There's a rationale behind it. 

1) A PhD means that you are a student, yes, but it also means that you work for a lab. So they are interested in having outstanding students regardless of where they come from. What gives a school its reputation is the research that happens there. This is why it is so important for them to spend money on PhD students. Don't forget that international students who get into American schools with a stipend and all, worked their asses off. I'm not saying that domestic students did not but I believe it's way more challenging for an international student. The GRE is super hard for a non native speaker. It's also challenging because Americans are used to standardized tests. All the rest is also very unusual for us. The SOP was a very "exotic" exercice for me. We had to learn about basically everything that has to do with American applications (what's a GPA, how to write a CV in an American style, why I should waive my right to read the recommendation letters etc.). All I'm saying is that schools know that if international students are able to have an excellent application, then it means something. At least it means, that they are EXTREMELY motivated. So they know its worth accepting a few international students. Once again, I don't think that domestic students are less deserving. I just think that international students have to prove themselves more in order to get accepted. 

2) They want a diverse community. The same way that they don't want 100% straight male WASPs, they want international students because they studied in other countries, they did research in labs that have a different way of doing, they speak other languages, have a different scientific (and non-scientific) culture etc. They can therefore add something to the community. 

3) Research is a very international thing. It's all about collaborations, going to seminars in different countries, interacting with people from around the world, doing a part of your career abroad etc. It only makes sense to have international PhD students as well.

[GeoDUDE!]

l really don't know what you're driving at. 

 

You are telling a university how they should approach diagnosing the quality of applicants. Because you disagree with how they decide this, you call them unethical. When you are looking to hire someone, and pay them once you hire them, you can decide what method you use to determine the qualities of the interested applicants. Why can't University of Wisconsin have the same rights you do?

[Justin123]

 

Consider this email:

Or,

Or,

 

 

My argument is that all of these cases are ethical, standard practice and equivalent with the email you receive. Even if the program did not publish the 3.6 cutoff, or the preference for Biology degrees, or the fact that applicants prior to the deadline get priority (although they should indicate what the deadline is).

 

There is nothing in this email that indicates any sort of wrongdoing. 

 

As for application fees in general, I think the main concern about collecting them in order to dissuade students from applying to 50+ schools is the bias against students with financial difficulties. However, almost every school allows and grants application fee waivers to students in this case, and I think this is a great solution to that problem.

 

 

It would only make sense that applicants who applied after the deadline are reviewed after the rest...

As to the GPA/GRE cutoff and the preference to Biology degrees, universities always tell you that they review everything even though you have a low GPA or GRE and that they are happy to review people with different degrees. It is therefore unethical for them to throw the applications according to that because they told you they are going to review your application. I believe that universities say this because they need your money. A professor in my university used to be on the admission committee in a top tier school (I am not going to give more information because of obvious reasons). She told me that they throw out applications as soon as they arrive and that they do this to get money to spend more time on the other applications. She admitted that it is outrageous but that it was necessary... 

 

HOWEVER, I think that if you have a very low GPA and/or GRE, you are aware that you are taking a huge risk in sending your application to a top school because it is widely known that schools filter applications without even reading them. On the other hand, although international students are aware that their chances are extremely low (even though they have high GPA/GRE scores), we are not aware that some schools filter us out without even reviewing our applications and that's the whole point of my post. I wanted international students to know that they should be very careful. That UWM "frequently" does that...

[Vene]

1) A PhD means that you are a student, yes, but it also means that you work for a lab. So they are interested in having outstanding students regardless of where they come from. What gives a school its reputation is the research that happens there. This is why it is so important for them to spend money on PhD students.

Again, international students are more expensive to support, an international student cannot be compared 1:1 with domestic students they have to be superior to be worth the extra cost.

 

 

Don't forget that international students who get into American schools with a stipend and all, worked their asses off. I'm not saying that domestic students did not but I believe it's way more challenging for an international student. The GRE is super hard for a non native speaker. It's also challenging because Americans are used to standardized tests. All the rest is also very unusual for us. The SOP was a very "exotic" exercice for me. We had to learn about basically everything that has to do with American applications (what's a GPA, how to write a CV in an American style, why I should waive my right to read the recommendation letters etc.). All I'm saying is that schools know that if international students are able to have an excellent application, then it means something. At least it means, that they are EXTREMELY motivated. So they know its worth accepting a few international students. Once again, I don't think that domestic students are less deserving. I just think that international students have to prove themselves more in order to get accepted.

This is a bunch of just world fallacy whining. Nobody cares how hard you worked. What matters is what you can do.

 

2) They want a diverse community. The same way that they don't want 100% straight male WASPs, they want international students because they studied in other countries, they did research in labs that have a different way of doing, they speak other languages, have a different scientific (and non-scientific) culture etc. They can therefore add something to the community. 

3) Research is a very international thing. It's all about collaborations, going to seminars in different countries, interacting with people from around the world, doing a part of your career abroad etc. It only makes sense to have international PhD students as well.

I will agree that all of these reasons are legitimate. Nobody is saying that there shouldn't be any international students, there should be, but Wisconsin does admit internationals and they will continue to admit international students. Having a preference for domestic students doesn't mean they're not going to bring in international students. Edited September 8, 2014 by Vene

[Justin123]

Again, international students are more expensive to support, an international student cannot be compared 1:1 with domestic students they have to be superior to be worth the extra cost.

 

 

This is a bunch of just world fallacy whining. Nobody cares how hard you worked. What matters is what you can do.

 

I will agree that all of these reasons are legitimate. Nobody is saying that there shouldn't be any international students, there should be, but Wisconsin does admit internationals and they will continue to admit international students. Having a preference for domestic students doesn't mean they're not going to bring in international students.

Of course universities care. They want hard-working students. This is part of "what you can do".

And I'm not whining. I'm proud of my achievements. I am proud of having worked that hard. I'm not complaining about the procedure at all. I actually find it extremely rewarding to get accepted after such a hard and competitive admission process. All I am saying is that international students have to prove themselves even more... That was my whole point. Sorry you didn't get that...

Edited September 8, 2014 by Justin123

[Justin123]

Again, international students are more expensive to support, an international student cannot be compared 1:1 with domestic students they have to be superior to be worth the extra cost.

 

 

This is a bunch of just world fallacy whining. Nobody cares how hard you worked. What matters is what you can do.

 

I will agree that all of these reasons are legitimate. Nobody is saying that there shouldn't be any international students, there should be, but Wisconsin does admit internationals and they will continue to admit international students. Having a preference for domestic students doesn't mean they're not going to bring in international students.

 

And also, I never said that international students should be compared 1:1 with domestic students. Please show me where I said that.

I just said that universities are interested in having top students regardless of where they come from... I didn't say that they are able to accept students regardless of where they come from and I didn't say that they should. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Justin123

[Igotnothin]

You are telling a university how they should approach diagnosing the quality of applicants. Because you disagree with how they decide this, you call them unethical. When you are looking to hire someone, and pay them once you hire them, you can decide what method you use to determine the qualities of the interested applicants. Why can't University of Wisconsin have the same rights you do?

 

Fair to say you have to look at an application in order to judge its quality?

[GeoDUDE!]

Fair to say you have to look at an application in order to judge its quality?

 

No. You can sort applications, these days, with computers. If you want to sort with GPA + GRE, you can do that. The people at the bottom will never be read.

Still has nothing to do with ethics. Perhaps you should try and address the proposition you suggested in the first place if you really want to prove your point to someone other than yourself. At this rate this discussion is going nowhere, I commend you for being in the minority but do not let pride be the reason you continue this fight. Pride much of the time makes us look foolish. 

[Igotnothin]

No. You can sort applications, these days, with computers. If you want to sort with GPA + GRE, you can do that. The people at the bottom will never be read.

Still has nothing to do with ethics. Perhaps you should try and address the proposition you suggested in the first place if you really want to prove your point to someone other than yourself. At this rate this discussion is going nowhere, I commend you for being in the minority but do not let pride be the reason you continue this fight. Pride much of the time makes us look foolish. 

 

Are you kidding me?

[GeoDUDE!]

Are you kidding me?

 

I cannot tell if you are asking a rhetorical question, or if you are indeed, asking if I was making light of the situation. To answer the second I am taking this discussion very seriously, and do no appreciate responses like "smh" and 'Are you kidding me?".  

Edited September 8, 2014 by GeoDUDE!

[Igotnothin]

Sorting applications by GPA and GRE requires looking at each applicant's GPA and GRE. That would constitute some "evaluation" of each application. My argument this whole time has been that every application should be evaluated.