No research experience

[Vocho]

Hi,

 

I'm hoping someone might be able to give me advice. I graduated in 2000 with a Bachelor of Music and have spent the last several years playing in a professional orchestra. I'd like to study cognitive psych, specifically in relation to music, but I'm not sure if this is realistic because of my background. I have no research experience and I've never even taken a psych course, although my 'numbers' are good (gpa and gre). Am I just wasting time and money by applying this year? 

 

Any help would be appreciated! 

[Gvh]

What kind of program are you thinking of applying to? I think if you were interested in a master's degree, there is a good chance of admission so long as you have a well developed focus in your SOP - though bear in mind this would probably be unfunded. If you are not interested in a master's and are aiming for a PhD instead, it is highly unlikely you would gain an admission without *some* kind of research experience. In this case, it would be in your best interests to gain some research experience by volunteering in a lab (potentially get hired after a while if you are good/are lucky), taking some psych classes at your local community/extension school and applying next year. 

Edited November 21, 2014 by Gvh

[Vocho]

Hey thanks for your response. I'm looking for PhD programs, since that is ultimately my goal and most programs seem to include the master's degree, if I'm not mistaken. I have volunteered for a research program starting in January, but I fear this may be too little too late. I had hoped to avoid waiting another year since I'm not getting any younger.

[Gvh]

I hear you, but that's just the name of the game. it's up to you. If you have the resources to spend applying this year on the slim chance of an admit, then go for it. But note that  - depending on the caliber of the school - you will be competing with people with strong grades in the subject matter, years of research experience and defined research interests - potentially with publications. If you're willing to take your chances that's fine, but if you do I would also apply to a couple master's programs as well. You can always turn down the offer, but a master's (especially with a thesis) is one of the best ways to increase your competitiveness as an applicant if you have no previous background. I would also take the psychology GRE.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Gvh

[BCB]

As someone who is applying to grad school in psychology though my degree is in business, I can tell you (through searching for the relevant information for my own situation) that many programs require a minimum number of credit hours in psychology, and often the Psychology GRE for non-majors. Since you have neither of those things (and it's too late for the Psych GRE this year), as well as no research experience, I have a hard time believing you would be competitive. 

[Vocho]

I appreciate your honest and straightforward response. Do you recommend a master's program in general psychology? 

[Gvh]

Someone with personal experience might be able to chime in, but from what I understand an masters in general psych is only recommended when you're not quite sure what you want to study, because it will most likely give you a very broad overview of different subfields. However if you're sure about a certain subfield (e.g. cog psych), then you might be able to find programs that are more targeted, giving you a more in-depth education on your topics of interests. 

[BCB]

Honestly, the way I've done it personally was waiting a year longer than I would have liked (like I'm suggesting you do), volunteering for research positions at a couple labs at the closest university, and taking 4-5 psychology classes. The number of credit hours required that I've seen for non-majors tends to be 12 or 15, so maybe plan for that? That's 4-5 classes you probably wish you didn't have to pay for since you already have a degree, but it's still cheaper than a non-funded masters. I wanted to skip the masters step too, and that's basically what I've done over the course of the past year and a half. My professors now are very encouraging at my doctoral program prospects (though I guess we'll see in the spring, haha). I think your topic of interest and music background are really cool (and will make a great intro for your personal statement), but you need actual research psychology experience for good PhD programs to pick you over a boring but more experienced person.

Edited November 22, 2014 by bcaitlin

[psych face]

Hi,

 

I'm hoping someone might be able to give me advice. I graduated in 2000 with a Bachelor of Music and have spent the last several years playing in a professional orchestra. I'd like to study cognitive psych, specifically in relation to music, but I'm not sure if this is realistic because of my background. I have no research experience and I've never even taken a psych course, although my 'numbers' are good (gpa and gre). Am I just wasting time and money by applying this year? 

 

Any help would be appreciated! 

 

In addition to the above, there are also a few practical concerns such as GPA scores expiring after five years (unless you recently took the test), finding current letter writers who can speak to your potential as a graduate student (required quality of the letter), and evidence that you are currently able to compete in a graduate program (current grades, etc.). That is what I would be most worried about. As a non-young applicant myself, I know that these are going to be important factors in my app.

[juilletmercredi]

Frankly, yes, I do think that you are wasting your time and money applying this year.  If you had one or the other, there might be a glimmer of hope.  But you don't have any background prerequisite coursework in psychology, nor do you have research experience.  Think about how graduate professors are going to see it: They're going to wonder how you can be sure that you want to commit the next 5-6 years of your life, let alone the rest of your career, to studying cognitive psychology without taking a single class in it or working in the field.  They know that you don't have the knowledge necessary to succeed in graduate-level psychology classes, which build upon undergrad knowledge.  And you won't be a useful assistant to them in the lab; they would have to train you from ground zero, like an undergrad, which they are very likely unwilling to do when they are paying you a stipend.

 

You need the coursework and you need the experience.  Having not even taken a single class in psychology, you may not even be competitive for psychology programs.  But there are a couple of things you can do to try to increase your competitiveness - although how long they will take depends on how much time and money you have to devote to the endeavor.

 

-I think the best bet for you would be to try to get into a psychology master's program.  Normally I don't recommend them, because they are expensive and usually don't shave off any time towards the PhD, plus they usually aren't the type of experience that can boost admissions chances.  Your case is one of the exceptions, though.  There you can get three things you need: prerequisite coursework in psychology; research experience working alongside professors in the field; and letters of recommendation from those professors.  The best would be if you could find a specific MA in cognitive psychology.  I suspect that one does not exist (or that there are few of them), so an MA in general psychology or experimental psychology is the next best thing - as long as the department has cognitive psychologists in it.  Finding one that has research interests similar to yours is ideal, but not necessary.  You just need to get SOME experience.

 

I would recommend looking at your state's public universities first to see if any of them has an MA in psychology.  Where you go is not very important, as long as it's a well-reputed program (as opposed to an unaccredited school or something online) and as long as research is the primary focus of the program. The majority of MA programs in psychology are designed as stepping stones to PhD programs, though, because otherwise there's little use to the degree.

 

That'll take you 2 years full-time, and after that you should be at least moderately competitive.

 

-If you cannot get into an MA program in psychology (many of them would want to see at least a few classes in psych), you might want to try a post-baccalaureate program in psychology.  I don't know how many schools other than Columbia actually have one.  Columbia has a formal post-bacc in psych designed for people who are changing careers and don't have much of a background in the field.  The difference between an MA and a post-bacc is that in the post-bacc, you'll be taking largely the undergrad classes (as opposed to graduate-level classes in an MA program), although there are several classes that are cross-listed between the undergrad and grad programs at Columbia and other places.  Columbia is actually a stronghold for cognitive psychology.  The caveat, of course, is that this program is extraordinarily expensive, and New York is an extraordinarily expensive place to live, and there is no non repayable aid for this program.  The post-bacc can take 1 or 2 years, but I think most people choose to stay on the 2 years to get more experience and take more classes.  After that you should be decently competitive for PhD programs.

 

You could also go somewhere as a second bachelor's degree student, which honestly wouldn't be that much different from a post-bacc.  You would just need to make sure that you seek out the research experiences.

 

-A third option is to take psychology classes as a non-degree student at a local public university while you work or volunteer in a research lab.  This can take different configurations.  You can try to get a full-time job at a university as a lab manager, and take classes while doing that (this is unlikely given you have no background in psych and no experience).  Or you can get a full-time day job to pay the bills and take classes in psychology while you work, and squeeze in some volunteering at a research lab.  I would say that you will need at least 5 classes in psychology to be minimally competitive: general psychology, research methods, psychological statistics, a basic cognitive psychology class, and at least one other of your choice.  More classes are better, of course.  The average psychology major (who are your competitors) will have taken 10-15 classes in psychology by the time they graduate college.  You can use the handbook of whatever college you attend to guide your choices: if you take more classes, I also recommend sensation and perception and some other classes that are related to your interests (like a class on memory if you are interested in memory).  You also might want to take a class on the brain if your psych department offers it (most, but not all, do).

 

If you were able to take two classes at a time and you only took 6, this process would take you at least 2 years, and that's assuming that you are applying in the fall of the second, at which point you would only have 1 year of classes.

 

My other advice is that if your interests overlap with neuroscience and you think that you are going to want to scan people in an fMRI scanner as part of your research - if you even have an inkling that you might want to do that - you should probably get experience in a research lab that actually does fMRI scans and analyzes that data, so you can learn how to do it before you go to grad school.

[Vocho]

I was originally encouraged by programs who don't require an undergrad in psych and others who claim to be willing to overlook certain requirements if other aspects of the application are strong, but I didn't realize the research experience along with lack of related courses was such a deal breaker. I spent most of the last few months studying crazily for the gre (in music little attention is paid to anything apart from how well you play your instrument) and I did much better than I had hoped, but at the expense of virtually everything else.

 

bcaitlin - at one point I thought my topic of interest and music background would be the theme of my personal statement, but you're right - it would serve much better as an intro. 

 

juilletmercredi - you have saved me hours of time - and I don't think I would have even found the post-bacc option. It seems like a good one if the master's doesn't work out. 

 

Thank you all for taking the time to respond, it's great to hear different opinions. It's a hard pill to swallow, mostly because it means a year or two of going seriously into debt regardless of which option I choose, but I'd rather face it now than further down the road.

[caramelmocha]

Hello All,

 

I am new to gradcafe and am in a similar situation and my application is due soon.  

My case: undergrad 2001 in liberal arts/psycholgy; masters in counseling 2007; undergrad psych GPA is strong, but low math scores killed my overall.  GRE (old) 1310/writ 4, but had to retake due to being 5yrs 5months old; bombed on retakes.  

Research experience limited to undergrad.  SOP reads well as a personal statement, but how do I frame my limited experience in a positive light? 

 

Would love some input.

 

Caramelmocha

[Applemiu]

In general, I would go for the master, possibly at a state university. Less expensive, basically same results. Master programs are designed to give you the experience you need. In a postbac program like Columbia you are mostly on your own. Some people succeed there, some don't (but the price tag is the same).

People on this forum speak well of Hunter College's master (in the CUNY system). 

Just to give you all the information I have, I'have just read that there is a new postbac program at Berkeley. But again, that's a huge expense and the results are not guaranteed.

Finally, if possible I would apply this year to at least one program. Even if you don't get in, it will help you tremendously the next time around. Practice makes perfect! You are a musician, you know that.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Applemiu

[Applemiu]

People on this forum speak well of Hunter College's master (in the CUNY system). 

 

Let me add a consideration. If you do a master at CUNY (or at SUNY, for example Stony Brook, if they have one) you can still collaborate with labs at Columbia, NYU, Princeton etc All you have to do is to send an email to the lab manager, state your interests etc. I am not say it is easy, but if you send out twenty emails, something will work out. 

[Elizabeth Reed]

Depending on where you are/want to be geographically, what your resources are, and how the cost compares to other options, you might want to consider BU. They have a terminal MA program (general) that only takes 1 year, and the application deadline (to start Fall 2015) isn't until May, so you have plenty of time to figure out best strategy for getting in  

 

I don't know how highly-regarded BU is for cognitive psych, but the MA program is definitely a reputable one.

[Vocho]

Thanks so much to all who replied, this thread really helped me figure out what I needed to do.

 

I'll be attending a master's program this year!

[lewin]

I didn't realize the research experience along with lack of related courses was such a deal breaker. I spent most of the last few months studying crazily for the gre (in music little attention is paid to anything apart from how well you play your instrument) and I did much better than I had hoped, but at the expense of virtually everything else.

 

Great advice already above, but just as analogy -- doing well in psych courses, working in a lab, conducting independent research -- these are the equivalent of 'knowing how to play' in psychology. Doing well at the GRE is more like demonstrating that you know how to read sheet music and, as far as psych goes, you haven't even really picked up an instrument yet.... which isn't going to get you into the orchestra.

 

Here's one option that hasn't come up yet, though it might be more challenging.

 

Others have pointed out that you don't stack up (yet) relative to traditional applicants using traditional admissions criteria, but you might get lucky just acknowledging that and pitching yourself as a completely different type of MA student. For example, I know someone who is a retired police officer and always wanted to do an master's related to policing/psychology. He convinced a professor who studies stereotyping to take him on and they did an MA project together that this prof would never have been able to do without having access to the student's former police contacts. That is, the student didn't have a psych background but he had other skills that were useful--i.e., lots of experience in the context they wanted to study. 

 

I recently saw some research looking at spaced vs. massed acquisition of motor skills and they used piano playing. You could find things like that, where you can research something that other applicants can't, because of your music background.   This might require reaching out informally or using your personal networks instead of going the traditional application route.

Edited April 17, 2015 by lewin