letstalkshop Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 I would also add that as someone who got an undergrad degree at a not-well-known institution, getting an MA at a "brand name" institution, even in the allegedly non-useful field of sociology, opened a ton of doors for me job-wise. I'm making twice as much as I was making at jobs before I got my MA, and found my rate of interviews to job apps increased dramatically once I put that fancy name on my resume. It sucks, and it's unfair, but unfortunately it's the name of the game. That said, if you're set on PhD track, doing an MA at Columbia and not "standing out" could hurt your chances at the PhD.
letstalkshop Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Also--I'm not saying that the MA program is definitely worth taking on a ton of debt. Just adding my own experience into the conversation. I'm also happy to answer anyone's questions about the program. Edited February 23, 2015 by letstalkshop Whatishistoryanyway 1
Darth.Vegan Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Just FYI, while pedigree matters somewhat, it isn't as important as some folks make it out to be. Earnings and debt ratios are significantly impacted by a number of institutional characteristics. Institutional size, sector, and quality as measured by Astin and Henson’s selectivity score, all had slight positive impacts on earnings. Holding all student characteristics constant, graduates from private institutions enjoy a slight 4 percent earnings advantage over public college graduates. Moreover, graduates from colleges with selectivity scores 100 points higher than comparison colleges averaged a 1 percent earnings premium Source: Thomas, ScottL. 2000. “Deferred Costs and Economic Returns to College Major, Quality, and Performance.” Research in Higher Education 41(3):281–313.
sidelinestory Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 I think most people would rather be buried in debt than taking fast food orders or being otherwise miserable for the rest of their natural lives. I could be wrong. ugh such a privileged and pretentious thing to say. letstalkshop, rlb, Starbuck2015 and 2 others 5
rlb Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 ^^^^ I agree. Classist and privileged. $15 and a union! Whatishistoryanyway, uselesstheory, sidelinestory and 2 others 5
Whatishistoryanyway Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Very valid points. Letstalkshop, I'm in agreement with pretty much everything you said. Your record this cycle proves these programs can definitely be beneficial. If they weren't, I don't see how they could exist. Alternatively, it's safe to assume some go into the program thinking the name alone will get them into a top PhD program. Others, I'm sure, may just simply fall through the cracks. I was just trying to satisfy TheoryofTheories original inquiry. That said, I think I'm somewhat confused by parts of your post, TheoryofTheories. I definitely don't see where you're getting at with this sentence: "An MA from Chicago or Columbia certainly improves your odds of finding gainful employment relative to, say, that BA in gender studies and postmodern literature that you incurred debt for in the first place." Are you referring to my undergraduate degree in particular or just generally speaking of the average prospective student? You're making a lot of assumptions here. Some would argue those degrees are about as competitive on the job market as sociology. Oftentimes, those pursuing an advance degree in sociology are wanting to study something similar to the fields you just mention, simply from a sociological perspective. Also, every position I've ever heard argues against adding more debt to one's burden, something you seem to counter here in this sentence. "Top firms from all fields recruit from top tier schools, what you actually studied ("bourgeois fields" included) playing a largely minor role." Given the context of this sentence, perhaps you meant to use scare quotes? Maybe you disagree with my usage of "bourgeois" here? Anyway, I don't disagree with you about the firms, but I think 99% of the readers in this thread are concerned about PhD programs, not private firms. If I already have ~$30k (or whatever the national average is) of debt from undergrad added to another $50k (or more?) for a year of tuition at Columbia is not a very lucrative offer. Once you add a conservative estimate of $20k or so worth of debt from living expenses in New York, that leaves me $100k in debt before even entering into a PhD program (which will surely add more debt). The reason people are "unenthusiastic" about these offers is, I believe, because $100k or more of debt is scary at a time when it's nearly impossible to get a decent job in academia. Yes, these programs have been great to many, you can emphasis that again if you want. "Depending on where you live, how you live, etc., a year or two outside of academic work may go a long way to mitigate the $75,000 price tag." I have no idea what you're trying to say here. "There may be an even higher opportunity cost of not attending an MA program." Indeed, but there are more cost-effective ways of attending an MA program. See some of the other posts, plenty of people have funded MAs elsewhere. "And, like Marx's capitalists, you've dug your own grave." Marx had capitalists? Again, even with the context that follows this quote, I dont see where you're going with it. "I think most people would rather be buried in debt than taking fast food orders or being otherwise miserable for the rest of their natural lives." Really? I don't agree. It also seems so odd that you continue to advocate for people to get so deep into debt. Regarding fast food, your statement is pretty offensive and the elitism, intentional or not, seems to be bleeding through. Global capitalism is in a crisis and if we don't do something about it, you're going to be flipping burgers too. It's also silly to imply that people working in the service sector can't be happy. I can't even imagine what kind of sociology it is you study. "Now if you find that you do love academic work and you really want to research, teach, and publish at a (major) university, then these MA programs are, in the context of the long run, an incredible opportunity to advance those life-long goals." Again, I'm in full agreement with you. But let's not forget that all these things can also be done at a more cost-efficient program. At this point in the game, I'm about 100% sure I'm going to pursue a MA at a state school. I work hard and I'm passionate about what I study. I have no reason to believe I cant be successful. rlb, Darth.Vegan, high_hopes and 3 others 6
rjparson Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) Just to interject - I did a one year master's program in the UK right out of undergrad at an institution that was of a much higher pedigree than my UG school. I'd recommend looking abroad to get a one-year degree if you're looking to make your CV more attractive. The UK has the added benefit of offering a lot of specialized degrees, which might give some weight to how you define your "fit." For instance, the LSE (not the school I attended) has dozens of programs that borrow from all sorts of social science traditions: http://www.lse.ac.uk/study/graduate/availableProgrammes.aspx (Edit: if this link doesn't work, look for "Available programmes for 2015/16" then click "Taught Masters") All in all, you can probably pick up an Oxbridge/London master's degree for much cheaper than what Columbia and Chicago are offering. Edited February 23, 2015 by rjparson
letstalkshop Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Very valid points. Letstalkshop, I'm in agreement with pretty much everything you said. Your record this cycle proves these programs can definitely be beneficial. If they weren't, I don't see how they could exist. Alternatively, it's safe to assume some go into the program thinking the name alone will get them into a top PhD program. Others, I'm sure, may just simply fall through the cracks. I was just trying to satisfy TheoryofTheories original inquiry. Yeah, just to clarify, I don't think an MA in sociology from a brand name institution necessarily helps with your application to PhD programs. As I mentioned in a PM to you, if you don't stand out in this type of program, it could actually hurt you. I think it really only helps insofar as it helps you get letters from and research experience with well known profs (which, unfortunately, is huge). Anonymona 1
Darth.Vegan Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Canadian schools also offer fully funded MA programs, worth looking into. I had a lot of success applying to those but ended up getting a good PhD offer so I declined. I feel like the Chicago and Columbia programs are a debt trap. DASA at UCI is also a very good and much cheaper option that folks should look into. high_hopes and rjparson 2
Frankfurtschool Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 For those who have been admitted to Columbia for the Masters, I was wondering if it said explicitly in the email that they have offered you the admissions for the Master's or did it say in the letter that your application was recommend to be reviewed and they will let you know more in a month? Thank you!
460178985 Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Just an update. It seems that NYU is sending out MAY notification. So I guess PHD acceptance has all been sent out.
uselesstheory Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 This is pure speculation, but don't other sociology programs know that the Columbia and Chicago terminal MA programs are primarily money-making schemes? It seems as if departments would be familiar enough with this that unless a student coming from one of these programs (in a hypothetical situation in which someone applies to PhD programs after finishing the MA) demonstrated impressive improvement and accomplishments during their time completing the degree, the degree essentially is an expensive way to look good... Perhaps this is what letstalkshop is alluding to, and that makes a lot of sense. Personally, even if I did not receive any funded PhD offers, I would still turn down the Columbia MA acceptance given that I'd rather spend a year trying to publish, getting involved in research, networking, etc. (and working, of course) to reapply than going into significant debt with virtually the same future plan. I could make money during that time and still seriously improve my PhD applications, in theory. Debt isn't something to discuss lightly (referring to your post, TheoryOfTheories) -- and I expect better from sociologists than comments devaluing and dismissing minimum wage workers. $15 and a union, indeed! sidelinestory, rlb, high_hopes and 1 other 4
frantz Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 For those who have been admitted to Columbia for the Masters, I was wondering if it said explicitly in the email that they have offered you the admissions for the Master's or did it say in the letter that your application was recommend to be reviewed and they will let you know more in a month? Thank you! Here you go: "While the faculty of the Department of Sociology was not able to offer you admission to its doctoral program, it has decided to offer you admission to the M.A. program, beginning in the Fall 2015 semester. Although your application to the doctoral program was competitive, the faculty Admissions Committee was able to admit only a small percentage of this year's extremely strong Ph.D. applicants. The program to which you have been admitted culminates in the degree of Master of Arts."
Count Chocula Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Does anyone know when Berkeley releases funding information?
letstalkshop Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 This is pure speculation, but don't other sociology programs know that the Columbia and Chicago terminal MA programs are primarily money-making schemes? It seems as if departments would be familiar enough with this that unless a student coming from one of these programs (in a hypothetical situation in which someone applies to PhD programs after finishing the MA) demonstrated impressive improvement and accomplishments during their time completing the degree, the degree essentially is an expensive way to look good... Perhaps this is what letstalkshop is alluding to, and that makes a lot of sense. Personally, even if I did not receive any funded PhD offers, I would still turn down the Columbia MA acceptance given that I'd rather spend a year trying to publish, getting involved in research, networking, etc. (and working, of course) to reapply than going into significant debt with virtually the same future plan. I could make money during that time and still seriously improve my PhD applications, in theory. Debt isn't something to discuss lightly (referring to your post, TheoryOfTheories) -- and I expect better from sociologists than comments devaluing and dismissing minimum wage workers. $15 and a union, indeed! Yes. It's an expensive way to look good. I think professors at other schools do know it's a money making scheme, which is why the degree itself is not sufficient to really strengthen your application. theoryoftheories 1
Frankfurtschool Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Here you go: "While the faculty of the Department of Sociology was not able to offer you admission to its doctoral program, it has decided to offer you admission to the M.A. program, beginning in the Fall 2015 semester. Although your application to the doctoral program was competitive, the faculty Admissions Committee was able to admit only a small percentage of this year's extremely strong Ph.D. applicants. The program to which you have been admitted culminates in the degree of Master of Arts." Thank you.
Frankfurtschool Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Hi everyone, so I have a question regarding funding. Because I do not have other offer's to compare, I was wondering if you guys could give me some insight on funding. I've only been admitted to one school so far, which is UCR and wait listed at UCI. I believe I received a stipend for the 1st year and the remaining 3 years are taships. The offer is called a fellowship, but I am confused because they only offer me a stipend for the first year? Is this normal for UC's? Thank you, appreciate it!
Darth.Vegan Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 Hi everyone, so I have a question regarding funding. Because I do not have other offer's to compare, I was wondering if you guys could give me some insight on funding. I've only been admitted to one school so far, which is UCR and wait listed at UCI. I believe I received a stipend for the 1st year and the remaining 3 years are taships. The offer is called a fellowship, but I am confused because they only offer me a stipend for the first year? Is this normal for UC's? Thank you, appreciate it! That's actually a good offer. Many UC's offer only TA based fellowships or 1 possibly 2 quarters for very select applications that don't require TA'ing.
zoesunny Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 Hi, for those who are still waiting for Columbia Phd decision. I sent an email to Prof. Shamus Khan and got his reply: "We have issued offers to our doctoral program; our decisions for our masters program are still pending. We receive several hundred applications for eight spots. In making decisions we must balance composition, interest areas, and fit. I am sorry we were unable to offer you admission to our doctoral program, but I wish you luck in your future sociological pursuits. "
breaks0 Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Canadian schools also offer fully funded MA programs, worth looking into. I had a lot of success applying to those but ended up getting a good PhD offer so I declined. I feel like the Chicago and Columbia programs are a debt trap. DASA at UCI is also a very good and much cheaper option that folks should look into. Can you name some Darth? And do any of them have enough fin aid to give you a full ride or partial ride even? I almost applied to york phd and chose geog there at last minute, everyone's heard that story by now. Edited February 24, 2015 by breaks0
Darth.Vegan Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 (edited) Can you name some Darth? And do any of them have enough fin aid to give you a full ride or partial ride even? I almost applied to york phd and chose geog there at last minute, everyone's heard that story by now.I applied to Victoria, Simon Fraser and Toronto. I got rejected from Toronto but got fully funded offers from Simon Fraser and Victoria. SF's offer was better, they even offered to match UCI and offered me an RA position with Gerardo Otero. I also got funded offers for the MA program in sociology at Oklahoma ($32k), and the MA in environmental justice at University of Michigan (also $32k). It's really not that hard to find funding for MA programs, seems crazy to pay 50k for one. Edited February 24, 2015 by Darth.Vegan
randomnamegenerator Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 Another thing to consider with one-year MA programs is that if you try to apply to PhD programs that year, faculty at the MA school, in most cases, will only have known you for a couple of months. You may not be able to get new letters until a subsequent application cycle. I believe Chicago recommends waiting another year so that you finish the program in the summer and then apply after 12 months of study with their faculty. I don't have any firsthand experience with any of these programs, however. I've been told students who go through MAPPS at Chicago don't end up getting PhDs at Chicago, but the program claims to have good placement rates. I met one person who went through NYU's MA program and then got a PhD offer from them, but can't really speculate as to whether the MA helped. Otherwise, I don't know where NYU and Columbia send people.
Socgrad26 Posted February 24, 2015 Posted February 24, 2015 Does anyone know if people typically get off of funding waitlists? And if so, is there a chance for full funding? Or is there no way to generalize because this is all specific to the institution? I was told I was ranked highly and that the probability was pretty high, so there might be hope right?
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