having money and "making it"

[snyegurachka]

Do you think that schools keep your socioeconomic background/present in mind when they review your applications?

Where are you coming from, and how did you get yourself to this place of being able to (somewhat confidently) apply to phd programs?

 

Regardless of where you are coming from, I know that it takes a lot of hard work to get to a place of being a viable candidate for top programs. However, sometimes when I see the number of schools people have applied to, time spent not working, how many times they're taken the GRE, their undergrad institutions, etc, I worry that maybe I'm just up against a lot that I can't really compete with. It's not like I'm coming from a privilege-less background at all; I grew up in a middle class family, my father is a professor, I am white, American, I went to a pretty good liberal arts school...I just had to work the whole time, and my transcripts and extra-curricular (or whatever the grown up version of that is?) activities reflect that. I decided to get an MA to make myself a more viable phd candidate, but of course that just compounded my debt, and even with loans, I have to work 20-40 hours per week to get by. As those of you who also have work study jobs or any kind of wage work in academia know, the holiday breaks really fuck up your financial shit (and coincide with deadlines).

 

I only applied to five programs because four were my only choices that offered fee waivers (Duke, University of Pittsburgh, and U-Penn do not), and the one I paid for was my top choice. I kind of doubt that Stanford really cares if its fee is the equivalent of two weeks of food for me. 

 

Anyway, I don't want this to get any closer to "oh poor me" territory. I'm just wondering how the rest of you who aren't 100% professional/full-time students, don't have parental/spousal support, who either don't come from much money or have been pretty broke for a while handle these things. I don't want to feel that sinking every time I see someone post who has applied to 9+ schools, but I do. It just doesn't seem right to taste all the chocolates if you're only going to eat one. Sorry, this was the only metaphor I could think of and it is just okay.

 

And for those of you who are in programs now, did this kind of stuff really end up mattering? Do you feel like it put you at a disadvantage or limited your choices?

Edited January 16, 2015 by snyegurachka

[jhefflol]

I feel like I should answer here. I only took each GRE once and didn't have any prep courses either. I come from a single-income family, a teacher's income at that. I have had to work 2 jobs totaling 55-60 hours a week to support myself through my MA, all while taking 3-4 classes. I don't live at home, and rent in long beach isn't cheap.

I was able to apply to 15 schools by some miracle. My parents set up an education investment fund when I was young. When my parents divorced, my dad took all of our important documents when he left and refused to hand them over. Last semester, we were finally able to cash out the fund through a long process, and it came at the perfect time. I could only apply to the schools that the education fund could afford. I had some fee waivers as well, which I'm immensely grateful for.

Would I have liked to take the GRE again? You bet. Would I have preferred to apply to more schools? Yep. I do think that the fact that I couldn't afford prep classes, a "higher ranked" MA institution, and to retake the GREs will effect the outcomes of my application. That's why I chose to apply to so many: I see this as a one-shot deal. If I don't get in with funding this year, I'll have to work for 2 years to save up to apply again. And who knows, by that time I might be perfectly happy as a community college professor and won't want to pursue a PhD.

Edited January 16, 2015 by jhefflol

[Mattie Roh]

If it makes you feel any better, I could only afford to apply to five programs as well (and I really, really should have dropped the fifth to be honest). I also worked full time while paying for my bachelor's and master's. Because of bills from school and well, life, I was only able to apply to three schools last year. Instead of getting *too* jealous/discouraged, though, I remind myself that all of this has prepared me well for a PhD program and also that it's forced me to carefully consider the programs I'm applying to.

[snyegurachka]

I feel like I should answer here. I only took each GRE once and didn't have any prep courses either. I come from a single-income family, a teacher's income at that. I have had to work 2 jobs totaling 55-60 hours a week to support myself through my MA, all while taking 3-4 classes. I don't live at home, and rent in long beach isn't cheap.

I was able to apply to 15 schools by some miracle. My parents set up an education investment fund when I was young. When my parents divorced, my dad took all of our important documents when he left and refused to hand them over. Last semester, we were finally able to cash out the fund through a long process, and it came at the perfect time. I could only apply to the schools that the education fund could afford. I had some fee waivers as well, which I'm immensely grateful for.

Would I have liked to take the GRE again? You bet. Would I have preferred to apply to more schools? Yep. I do think that the fact that I couldn't afford prep classes, a "higher ranked" MA institution, and to retake the GREs will effect the outcomes of my application. That's why I chose to apply to so many: I see this as a one-shot deal. If I don't get in with funding this year, I'll have to work for 2 years to save up to apply again. And who knows, by that time I might be perfectly happy as a community college professor and won't want to pursue a PhD.

 

I think we are...simpatico. My MA program turned out to be great, but it is unranked. Just happened to offer some need-based aid and be in an affordable city. My plan B is to get some kind of certification in Rhetoric/to teach writing at a college/professional level. Or just get a job at a writing center if I can. Still...with 15 schools + your perseverance, I have a feeling you will be okay

[snyegurachka]

If it makes you feel any better, I could only afford to apply to five programs as well (and I really, really should have dropped the fifth to be honest). I also worked full time while paying for my bachelor's and master's. Because of bills from school and well, life, I was only able to apply to three schools last year. Instead of getting *too* jealous/discouraged, though, I remind myself that all of this has prepared me well for a PhD program and also that it's forced me to carefully consider the programs I'm applying to.

 

Yeah...I just keep hoping that my "life experience" has somehow made me more inured to life and its disappointments. I haven't even been working full time much of the semester, and I honestly think that the only thing more stressful than being super broke is the stress of working more than I can handle. Or maybe I'm wrong. I can't even think of a time in my adult life that I was not poor. I'm so prepared to live off of a phd student stipend  

[snyegurachka]

I just think that this kind of insanity perpetuates both the idea that academia is a cushy bourgeois thing to do, a labor of love and not a job—it's a profession that most of us enjoy and have an aptitude for, but it is still work. We shouldn't be defaulting on our credit cards just to make ends meet. I don't know about you, but when my SNAP benefits were cut off because I was unemployed for six weeks, I had to get a credit card to be able to eat. I live with my partner and we share many of our expenses, but ultimately these are my goals and my own decisions and I did not want to borrow his money (which he doesn't really have much of anyway) to get there. Obviously my situation is different from marriage, but I really don't appreciate your implication that I don't want it or don't care enough to get myself into even more financial trouble just to take a step that I really hope will work.

 

 

In terms of tasting the chocolates...every school you apply to has its own acceptance rate and things that it is looking for. Statistics do not work in a way in which your applying to x number of schools raising your chances of getting in to a program. What it does do is lower the acceptance rate of each program to which you apply. That is why so many programs have gone from having 50 applicants to 200+. I don't know about you, but I don't think there were more than 10 schools that really seemed like good fits with the right faculty for what I want to do. You get what I'm saying? 

 

There are schools that I wish I could have applied to, but not enough to stop eating or being able to pay my rent/utilities or take the train to work. What happens if you don't get in to all 17 and have $3000+ of credit card debt? When you don't have a lot of money to work with, that seems to me to be a huge gamble.

Edited January 16, 2015 by fuzzylogician
edited to remove quoted text at poster's request

[drownsoda]

Not in a grad program, but I applied to several MA programs and I know where you're coming from. I come from parents who divorced when I was really young. My dad is a self-employed carpenter and we were actually somewhat wealthy during my childhood because he made really great money; long story short, my parents split up, and then some years later as I neared the end of high school, my dad struggled finding work, lost all of his money, and almost lost his house in the process. 

 

I had planned on going to school across the state, but couldn't get enough aid for it; that, and my dad had owned a house in that town that was a rental property which he was going to let me rent out, but it ended up being foreclosed on, so the whole situation just sort of imploded. I ended up at community college for two years, where I had some wonderful teachers. I later transferred to a university downtown, which is where I'm graduating from here in a couple months. I went to school full time, worked my ass off to get good grades, and I waited tables throughout my entire time in school (during my streak in community college also). My parents weren't able to help me pay for school, so I lived with my dad and, with the help of grants, was able to pay for most of my education myself.

 

My senior year, the course load reached its zenith, so I ended up working less so I could focus on school more. I have ended up walking out with a B.A. and am only around $8,000 in debt, which is kind of unbelievable. I have friends who are $100k+ in debt from undergrad, so in the end, I'm glad with how I did it. It was a rough road, but I think there's something to be said for those of us who had to fight the good fight. I know some people whose parents paid for their entire college experience, and they totally take it for granted. I knew a girl whose parents paid for her tuition, her rent at a downtown loft, food, books, and sent her on multiple trips around the world, and she never seemed to understand how lucky she was for it. 

 

The only trade-off was that I didn't have time internships or anything really as an undergrad, because all of my free time was eaten alive by homework and/or my job. I did manage to complete two internships my senior year, but it was because, like I said, I was working less. I only applied to five schools also because the GRE and application fees drained all of my money from me. It's not necessarily bad though, because I honestly only am interested in a small number anyway. If I can't get into a solid program, then I'd rather not go. End of. It's not worth it to me, and applying for the sake of applying seemed pointless to me. My thought process was, "Even if I got into this school, would I actually go?" If the answer was "probably not," then I didn't apply.

 

Anyway, my point I guess is, kudos, and that I empathize. I too come from a very much "working class" situation.

[NowMoreSerious]

I applied to a lot of schools and did it through a combination of student loan money, fee waivers, and a pre-doctoral program I was in that paid for about half of my schools.  

 

I'm a first generation college attendee, and the first person in my family to graduate high school in the conventional 4 years. In my 30+ years of life I have never lived in a house, only small apartments.  

 

As long as there is capitalism, money and inequality will be an issue and there's no solution.... but revolution.  

[snyegurachka]

I applied to a lot of schools and did it through a combination of student loan money, fee waivers, and a pre-doctoral program I was in that paid for about half of my schools.  

 

I'm a first generation college attendee, and the first person in my family to graduate high school in the conventional 4 years. In my 30+ years of life I have never lived in a house, only small apartments.  

 

As long as there is capitalism, money and inequality will be an issue and there's no solution.... but revolution.  

 

And were accepted to nearly half? Gives me hope that my thoughts about statistics are right. My five choices were top programs, but I figured I should go for the best fit at the institutions with good funding and placements. Whenever I encounter a school that does not even consider offering fee waivers...I really just don't want to go. What assholes.

 

How much of a difference did applying to so many programs make, do you think?

[jhefflol]

Is it just me or is this thread getting to be some kind of sick competition to see who had it hardest?

We all have our struggles. It's part of the human existence. Every single person is fighting some kind of uphill battle, no matter what kind of privilege each person has.

[drownsoda]

Is it just me or is this thread getting to be some kind of sick competition to see who had it hardest?

We all have our struggles. It's part of the human existence. Every single person is fighting some kind of uphill battle, no matter what kind of privilege each person has.

 

I'm going to infer that you are talking about what I posted, and that wasn't my intention at all. I was just explaining what my experience was, not for sympathy or shock value or anything of the sort (my experience is actually fairly normal for many people). We all have our stories, I don't see what's wrong with sharing them with people who have gone through similar things.

[Dr. Old Bill]

We all have our struggles. It's part of the human existence. Every single person is fighting some kind of uphill battle, no matter what kind of privilege each person has.

 

Probably the most sensible thing said on this thread so far.

[jhefflol]

And I just want to add that, yes, there are 15 schools that would be a perfect fit for me. There were actually 27, but I narrowed them down. Being an early modernist has its benefits, as nearly every school has some kind of well-funded EM/medieval program. Your fit list might be less because, if I remember correctly, you are studying something way more risky? innovative? I'm not sure what the correct word is. And that's okay I think you'll be just fine for applications, but questioning others' methods and choices isn't really fair.

[jhefflol]

I'm going to infer that you are talking about what I posted, and that wasn't my intention at all. I was just explaining what my experience was, not for sympathy or shock value or anything of the sort (my experience is actually fairly normal for many people). We all have our stories, I don't see what's wrong with sharing them with people who have gone through similar things.

I wasn't talking about you specifically, just the attitude of this thread in general. I participated too, and I'm guilty as well.

[snyegurachka]

I just think we are really perpetuating this competition and "oh it's so hard" attitude by making everything harder and more competitive for others and thus ourselves.

 

As in, we make the stakes higher by accepting that they are so high. We are acting the way schools want us to act so that they can make money off of fees that people are paying to programs that they are not good fits for because everyone is so hysterical about getting in somewhere.

 

I am not saying that everyone who applies to more than 9 programs is necessarily applying to each program just to apply and not because the faculty/program are a good fit, but I do think it perpetuates the notion that graduate school admissions are random when they aren't.

 

I was genuinely curious about the whys and hows of people's application decisions. I didn't expect this to get so intense.

Edited January 16, 2015 by snyegurachka

[NowMoreSerious]

And were accepted to nearly half? Gives me hope that my thoughts about statistics are right. My five choices were top programs, but I figured I should go for the best fit at the institutions with good funding and placements. Whenever I encounter a school that does not even consider offering fee waivers...I really just don't want to go. What assholes.

 

How much of a difference did applying to so many programs make, do you think?

 

Frankly, it's difficult to say what type of difference it made, especially since acceptances are pretty random. In other words, people get rejected from "lower ranked" schools and accepted to "elite schools."  When people ask me, though I usually recommend applying to as many schools (that you can afford) as you would attend if accepted.  

 

For example I applied to 16 schools.  I got accepted to 7.5 of them.  (One of them was about to take me off the waitlist but I ended up declining it because I accepted another school).  This means I got declined from 8 of them.  If I was only applying to 8, and I picked those 8, I would have got shut out and probably lost a lot of confidence. 

 

But I did 16 and got into my third choice, which is awesome since I wasn't sure I'd get in anywhere, coming from lower tier ranked state schools, up through the community college system.  

[Dr. Old Bill]

I'm just going to go ahead and hide all of my responses. I just don't think anything about this thread is particularly productive, and indeed, the central notion is more divisive than anything.

 

I love GC and our cohort. I don't want to foster resentment from anyone here over our respective decisions about what schools we applied to and why.

[drownsoda]

Kind of off topic, but did anyone else read the title and expect this thread to be about making a living as a postgraduate with an English degree?

[jhefflol]

I'm just going to go ahead and hide all of my responses. I just don't think anything about this thread is particularly productive, and indeed, the central notion is more divisive than anything.

I love GC and our cohort. I don't want to foster resentment from anyone here over our respective decisions about what schools we applied to and why.

Agree. I'll leave my responses because I'm on the mobile version and it sucks lol

But I love you all and have absolute faith that our cohort will have a high acceptance rate:) We've got some smart cookies here!

[queennight]

Do you think that schools keep your socioeconomic background/present in mind when they review your applications?

 

And for those of you who are in programs now, did this kind of stuff really end up mattering? Do you feel like it put you at a disadvantage or limited your choices?

 

I think this is a really taboo subject that we're talking about, but I'm glad that you brought this up for discussion. It's a great question, and a difficult one to ask.

 

My own decision to apply to 6 programs was definitely limited by finances. However, I don't think that this means that somebody who applied for 10+ programs necessarily is rolling in the dough, as this thread I think is starting to suggest. We all have credit cards, extra jobs, the ability to take on debt - it's a personal decision as to how much extra cost we want to invest in this process. There's nothing wrong with a decision to apply to 3 schools, just as there's nothing wrong with applying to 25, if you so decided.

 

Either way, I honestly believe that graduate English schools do not keep your socioeconomic background in mind. As students, at the main top programs, all accepted are offered the exact same stipend and tuition refund. Smaller schools may take fellowships into account, but in theory, it shouldn't affect the large schools acceptances.

 

As a side note, I think it's very interesting reading this question in conjunction with my own personal experience. Those of you who have private messaged me might already know this, but I'm applying to both graduate schools and law schools in Canada and seeing where my dice falls (I have interests in both areas). I'd actually argue that for other professional programs, such as law, your socioeconomic background plays a huge role in whether you decide to pursue a certain career or not (at least in Canada - and I know in the States this is even worse). I know many people who couldn't get loans out for law school and thus were rejected by the schools, simply on the basis of finances. I'd argue that in comparison to these brutally expensive professional programs, graduate school is much more of a equalizer (at least the larger, funded programs are). Certainly, there are schools that are assholes and don't relinquish application fees, but by comparison, professional school is a blood bath. If you are born into money, there's a good chance that you'll be able to afford the ridiculous fees for professional schools, and you'll be able to attend. If you don't have the money (even if you have the talent/academics), you're left with extraordinary debt loads that push you into certain areas (Bay Street/Wall Street, for example) or kill your finances until you die.

 

More and more so, it seems to me that professional programs aren't just weeding students out by virtue of their academic success, but by virtue of their socioeconomic background. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, etc. If you are lucky enough to be born into a certain wealth, than by virtue of that wealth you will be able to create wealth of your own. Money makes money. A relevant article was published in Toronto Life (here) about the 'bank of mom and dad' that is propping up housing prices in Toronto. Undoubtedly, in my opinion, all of this will create a future recession, if not depression.

 

So, at the end of the day, while I agree with you that some schools are assholes about fees, in comparison to certain professional programs (pharmacy, law, medicine all come into mind) I'm ecstatic at the fact that full scholarship options are available, albeit are insanely competitive.

Edited January 16, 2015 by queennight

[queennight]

I'd also like to add that I think the inclusion of asking students about 'discriminatory experiences' on some of the applications I filled out seemed like a positive move by some graduate schools. Whether that discrimination be financial, age-ist, sexist, or relating to your sexuality/gender/ethnic identity, it was something that I thought was relevant and a good move.

 

I didn't have to work full-time during my education (I worked full-time summers, and took the occasional shift during the year), but being able to discuss how that would have impacted my GPA is something that should be included on applications, in my opinion. Ironically, I think there were more questions about this to answer for my law school personal statements than graduate school.

[Appppplication]

Same here. I had to fill out personal history statements for two schools that were basically life experience/diversity statements. Although it added more work to the process it certainly personalized my application, and it gives schools a more holistic view of who you are and what you've faced/overcame.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Appppplication

[1Q84]

Interesting. I didn't get any "oppression Olympics" in this thread so I'm going to answer in the same way that I would have before reading other people's responses.

 

I have serious money issues in my family: one parent is disabled and can't work, the other was laid off after 20 years at the same company. Not asking for pity, but it's been tough to always be on one's own funding wise. I also can't work in the US because I'm an international student, thus no second job.

 

I'm extremely lucky to have a partner who acts as a personal loan bank when my measly stipend runs out and until my next disbursement comes out. 

 

I'm not eligible for any fee waivers as an international student, so those fees + GRE fees + transcript fees puts me well above $1000 for 9 schools. I honestly wanted to apply to more but just didn't have the money for it.

 

Do I hope schools take this into consideration? Definitely. 

 

I honestly don't think that this has anything to do with "pity me!" or "I'm the most oppressed!" (or at least it shouldn't be) but really just giving fair consideration to applicants who had a rough go of even making it to the application stage.

 

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this post.

Edited January 16, 2015 by 1Q84

[queennight]

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this post.

 

I don't think you did!! I think it's interesting that you included this caveat at the end of your post, however. Finances are clearly such a difficult thing to discuss. At the end of the day, I hope that writing ability is the #1 thing being measured by these programs (the craft of your WS, for instance, in my opinion is the best indication of whether you fit a program). When these schools do consider grades/scholarships/work experience/etc, on some level there should be discussion about personal circumstances if those are lower (mental health issues, gap years, financial ability, military experience, etc.). To me, these should be the basic requirements of a fair educational system. Somebody coming from a family worth $2 million dollars will not have to work at all and will be able to afford private tutors (assuming their family supports them); someone from a family with less means will have to struggle along. There's a clear difference, and it has nothing to do with an individual's capabilities, merely the socioeconomic background that they were born into. Then again, I'm definitely an idealistic leftist, and many may disagree with me.

[__________________________]

Kind of off topic, but did anyone else read the title and expect this thread to be about making a living as a postgraduate with an English degree?

 

lol yeah.  I have my B.A. in English and am about to start a couple jobs... substitute teacher by day, data entry clerk by night.  Job market sucks where I am, but I'm hoping my "in-between" job as a sub will translate to a career in teaching if I don't get into a PhD program.  At least I'd feel like I'd be doing something more useful than wanking off to Foucault.  Pardon my cynicism.

 

I don't see any point in even going for a humanities M.A. if it's not funded, which is why I only applied to one M.A. program.  I have to work a bunch and have enough debt as it is.  A PhD program is something I see as a luxury.  Yes, I've gone out of my way to throw a bunch of hard-earned money into applying, but in the end I'm applying so I can be supported financially by a university to study literature.  If it doesn't pan out, no love lost.  There are other good things to throw oneself into.  But yes, it's a luxury.  Most academics I've met come from more secure, better socioeconomic backgrounds than I do.  A lot of the academy that I've experienced exists in a kind of annoying upper middle class white bubble that affects working class sentiments that I find largely disingenuous, to be honest. 

 

And yes, it's a fucking crime that higher education costs money.  It's a crime that I have to work as much as I do at pretty shitty jobs even though I just went into a lot of debt to go get my B.A.  It's a crime that the money that should be put into teaching kids and making sure everyone has access to a good education is put into the Pentagon and a militarized police force.  Welcome to America guys.