Preparing for the worse.

[Yuanyang]

I need some advice from strangers since the advice I got from friends, family, and mentors seems to have not gotten me very far. 

 

So I applied for PhD Programs in Neuroscience or Neurobiology for Fall 2015: 15 programs with a mix of reach/likely/safety schools. And as of now, I've learned that there are only 2 programs that have not either outright rejected me or that have not selected me for an interview (I am going with the assumption that if I was not selected for an interview, I will not be admitted to the program). Odds are, I will not be admitted to these remaining PhD programs.

 

I have committed everything I have to this, and I really did not have any backup-plan should I get rejected from every program. So I need to figure out what to do from here. What should I do from now on to get into a PhD program in the future? Should I be looking for another lab tech job? (had been one for 3 years) Should I apply for a masters program? (and if so, does anyone know of any which accepts students year round?) What could have went wrong? My choices were probably too much reach and not enough safety. Is it worth trying to apply again for different programs next fall? Assuming my credentials do not change with thing the span of a year. I am willing to listen to any frank voices.

 

But I do not need advise on another career. I have thought long and hard about it, yet my ambitions have not changed. I want to be an academician and still really like the field of neuroscience. I do not think I could be happy with another career.

[eeee1923]

As someone who doesn't have a clue about your credentials or preparation I would say that it's not worth applying if you don't plan on improving them within the next year. Now if you want to truly go down the PhD path, then you can apply to a masters program in neuroscience (as for which ones - that is up to you doing the research). You can also apply to post bacc programs such as like the ones at the NIH or in industry in order to gain the necessary skills to succeed. A lab tech position is also useful if it is a similar setting to what you would like to get into. Taking a year or two to up your stats and really consider if this is the path you want to stay on shouldn't be a problem since you adamently seem to want to go into academia. Those are a few options but remember you only need one acceptance and the rest won't matter (if that one place is somewhere where you can see yourself living and researching for the next few years), but judging by your sig - you seem to have given up hope. Don't do that until you have confirmed rejections. And if that were to happen - it's not the end of the world. I know students who have gone through similar situations and are now loving their doctoral programs. 

[Vene]

Well, one thing I can say is that I see a lot of high prestige programs on your list of universities. Clearly they were not realistic aims based on your current credentials. Credentials which would be incredibly useful if we're to help you. Kind of hard to tell somebody how to proceed if we don't have things like your GPA, GRE, or work history.

[ilovelab]

Are you from Cambridge, Mass or Cambridge UK? If its the latter international admissions are much tougher than for domestic students. If you're not, then how were your GRE Scores and your SOP? The schools you applied to will most likely have GRE Cutoffs. They don't say it on the admissions page but if you're not above the cutoff then most likely your app isn't getting looked at. How was your SOP? If it wasn't very good, that could easily have been your KOD at these programs.

[Yuanyang]

Ah yes, credentials:

 

Undergrad: Private Liberal arts college, B.A. class of 2011

Major: Biology

Minor: Mathematics (no real computer science minor)

Undergrad GPA: 2.3

 

Position in Class: No clue, there is no ranking system at the college and everyone in my class thinks they have the worst grades.

 

Post-bacc GPA (grad school level extension school programs): 3.3

 

GRE: 161 math (93%), 165(97%) verbal, 5 (88%) AW

Quant-related coursework: Statistics, computational macroeconomics, data-structures and algorithms

Research Experience: 3 Years at MIT as a research technician in a neuroscience laboratory, 2 publications as a middle author,  and some summer programming experience in bioinformatics with 1 middle author publication.

Awards/Honors/Recognitions: none

Pertinent Activities or Jobs: Odd jobs as a tutor, signator for brewing club, SCUBA certified, better traveled than Rick Steves

Any Miscellaneous Accomplishments that Might Help: Miscellaneous?

Special Bonus Points: On good personal terms with Dr.E Boyden and Dr.K Tye. Reccomendation from Dr.A Graybiel. Took 2 grad courses at Harvard Extension School and one Summer lab course in electrophysiology at UW Friday Harbor Lab.

Letters of Recommendation: 2-3 letters from my workplace and one from a course professor at Friday Harbor Labs.

 

Edited January 27, 2015 by Yuanyang

[ERR_Alpha]

Ah yes, credentials:

Undergrad: Private Liberal arts college, B.A. class of 2011

Major: Biology

Minor: Mathematics (no real computer science minor)

Undergrad GPA: 2.3

Position in Class: No clue, there is no ranking system at the college and everyone in my class thinks they have the worst grades.

Post-bacc GPA (grad school level extension school programs): 3.3

GRE: 161 math (93%), 165(97%) verbal, 5 (88%) AW

Quant-related coursework: Statistics, computational macroeconomics, data-structures and algorithms

Research Experience: 3 Years at MIT as a research technician in a neuroscience laboratory, 2 publications as a middle author, and some summer programming experience in bioinformatics with 1 middle author publication.

Awards/Honors/Recognitions: none

Pertinent Activities or Jobs: Odd jobs as a tutor, signator for brewing club, SCUBA certified, better traveled than Rick Steves

Any Miscellaneous Accomplishments that Might Help: Miscellaneous?

Special Bonus Points: On good personal terms with Dr.E Boyden and Dr.K Tye. Reccomendation from Dr.A Graybiel. Took 2 grad courses at Harvard Extension School and one Summer lab course in electrophysiology at UW Friday Harbor Lab.

Letters of Recommendation: 2-3 letters from my workplace and one from a course professor at Friday Harbor Labs.

Unless that's a typo the 2.3 undergraduate GPA is probably what is holding you back. Especially since it seems like neuroscience programs are especially competitive. The 3.3 in post bac is an improvement but may not be enough to convince AdCom.

[gliaful]

Unfortunately, a lot of grad programs have to follow the minimum requirements of the overseeing Graduate College, and most schools won't accept a GPA less than 3.0. I can't imagine anything else (presented here) that could be responsible for leaving you with no invites.

 

Did you reach out to any of these programs before applying to ask about your uGPA? I'm not sure what one can do to get around this, but hopefully someone can suggest something.

 

What about your statement of purpose, your letters of recommendation? Any chance any of these would have contained a kiss of death?

 

As for things to do other than grad school, I think the post-bacc research opportunities through NIH or some schools (I know OHSU has a program) would be a good choice.

[Yuanyang]

And this is why I should not have listened to the professors I've talked to. Every school I've applied to and every PI and admissions department I've talked to told me the exact same thing "We look at your entire application and with solid research experience we might make exceptions for a low undergraduate GPA."

 

Its unlikely I will ever know exactly why I didn't make it this year, though as some of you will notice it is probably the undergrad GPA. I've tried to explain it as best I can (just say it involves SSRIs). I spent tons of money and hours for my SoP, GRE, and got some solid recs from good professors. Though admittedly, no one even tried to discourage me and I don't know what's holding them back. 

 

The whole point of the job at MIT was to get research expereience, I'm not sure if more will help. And, more to the point, that position is gone now and I doubt anyone would want to hire me. I'm too old the NIH and OSHU post-bacc programs, they both only accept students who have graduated in the past 2 years. The only option I can see now is a masters degree in biology or psych. I need to be in a program now, I cant waste another year applying for next fall; so far I cant find any masters in neuroscience that has rolling admissions. It will be tough for me to afford it though, I'm still paying off my undergrad loans. I'll probably be in my 30s by the time I get into a PhD program. 

Edited January 27, 2015 by Yuanyang

[gliaful]

I need to be in a program now, I cant waste another year applying for next fall; so far I cant find any masters in neuroscience that has rolling admissions. It will be tough for me to afford it though, I'm still paying off my undergrad loans. I'll probably be in my 30s by the time I get into a PhD program. 

 

When I applied to Brandeis, I'm pretty sure I saw that they have a masters in Neuroscience that has rolling admissions, though I think the priority deadline was January 15th.

 

Edited January 27, 2015 by pasteltomato

[Vene]

And this is why I should not have listened to the professors I've talked to. Every school I've applied to and every PI and admissions department I've talked to told me the exact same thing "We look at your entire application and with solid research experience we might make exceptions for a low undergraduate GPA."

The key word there is might. I think you aimed too high for a PhD and are somebody who may need to do a masters.

 

Its unlikely I will ever know exactly why I didn't make it this year, though as some of you will notice it is probably the undergrad GPA. I've tried to explain it as best I can (just say it involves SSRIs). I spent tons of money and hours for my SoP, GRE, and got some solid recs from good professors. Though admittedly, no one even tried to discourage me and I don't know what's holding them back.

It can be tough to try and tell somebody to their face that they're not good enough. Also, I know people who have gotten in with low GPAs and done very well in their doctoral program.

 

The whole point of the job at MIT was to get research expereience, I'm not sure if more will help. And, more to the point, that position is gone now and I doubt anyone would want to hire me. I'm too old the NIH and OSHU post-bacc programs, they both only accept students who have graduated in the past 2 years. The only option I can see now is a masters degree in biology or psych. I need to be in a program now, I cant waste another year applying for next fall; so far I cant find any masters in neuroscience that has rolling admissions. It will be tough for me to afford it though, I'm still paying off my undergrad loans. I'll probably be in my 30s by the time I get into a PhD program.

There may be some funded masters programs out there, especially if you work as a TA. And I do think the work at MIT was the right thing to do, it's just that admissions can sometimes be a lottery.

[GABA-daba-doo]

In my opinion, you applied to very prestigious schools and you might benefit in the future from diversifying even more. I don't know much about Cold Spring Harbor, but the rest are all very respected neuro programs with Iowa and BU in the middle ground. There is some awesome neuroscience at less prestigious schools and I think you would have a better chance. What type of neuroscience do you want to go into? 

 

I think that you have taken the right steps by taking postbac courses and working in a laboratory. But, with your GPA that low, you need to have a record otherwise so great that makes admin committees unable to fixate on that. If you are able to, I would definitely look into taking additional high level science courses that show you would be able to handle that coursework and likely a masters would be the best way to do this. 

 

BTW, I also had a GPA on the low end... a little higher but definitely would have held me back had I not done a lot of post bac research and taken additional coursework at a local university to bring up my GPA some

[ilovelab]

The post bac GPA is reflective of 3 courses? If so that's what did you in. The adcom wouldn't have counted the post bac gpa in lieu of your undergrad. If it was a Masters GPA they might/probably would have. Most grad schools have a minimum 3.0 GPA requirement. Your 2.3 GPA is what was probably considered and thus the slew of rejections you got.

 Look into these:

Northwestern has a Masters in Neurobiology http://www.neurobiology.northwestern.edu/graduate/program-overview/faqs.html It says the application deadline is March 31st.

  Texas A&M has a biomedical sciences masters program http://vetmed.tamu.edu/graduate/biomedical-sciences/ms-thesis-and-phd-degrees

  University of Maryland Baltimore: Masters in Cellular and Molecular Biomedical Sciences http://lifesciences.umaryland.edu/CMBS/apply.aspx

 

 There are more, Most masters programs have deadlines of march ish.

[Eigen]

I know you don't want to be told to consider other options, but I really think this might be a good time to sit down and think, hard, about why you want to be an academic neuroscientist.

Especially since you are, as you say, paying off student loans from undergrad, and are now possibly looking at unfunded masters programs?

Graduate admissions are competitive. And the job prospects in Neuroscience aren't great, especially if you want to stay in academia- even more so if you want to stay at the research end of academia.

If you want a research university faculty job, you need to go to a prestigious school to have a good shot, and even then I know people who have been years on the job market.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just suggesting this is a good time to evaluate what you're willing to sacrifice for this, and why.

[Yuanyang]

 

 

BTW, I also had a GPA on the low end... a little higher but definitely would have held me back had I not done a lot of post bac research and taken additional coursework at a local university to bring up my GPA some

 

To me, 3.3 GPA at an Ivy league school is not the low end. If it is, then I've hit the marina trench of a graduating undergrad GPA. Also, out of curiosity, exactly how much coursework did you take?

 

 

It can be tough to try and tell somebody to their face that they're not good enough. Also, I know people who have gotten in with low GPAs and done very well in their doctoral program.

 

 

 

Did you ever ask how low? This is the most depressing part. I had literally strangers from Harvard look at my transcripts and say "its not that bad" when likely the adcom would have thrown the whole application in the trash. For once, the internet people were right.

 

 

 Look into these:

Northwestern has a Masters in Neurobiology http://www.neurobiology.northwestern.edu/graduate/program-overview/faqs.html It says the application deadline is March 31st.

  Texas A&M has a biomedical sciences masters program http://vetmed.tamu.edu/graduate/biomedical-sciences/ms-thesis-and-phd-degrees

  University of Maryland Baltimore: Masters in Cellular and Molecular Biomedical Sciences http://lifesciences.umaryland.edu/CMBS/apply.aspx

 

 There are more, Most masters programs have deadlines of march ish.

 

 

When I applied to Brandeis, I'm pretty sure I saw that they have a masters in Neuroscience that has rolling admissions, though I think the priority deadline was January 15th.

 

 

I'll look into these, thanks.

 

 

I know you don't want to be told to consider other options, but I really think this might be a good time to sit down and think, hard, about why you want to be an academic neuroscientist.

Especially since you are, as you say, paying off student loans from undergrad, and are now possibly looking at unfunded masters programs?

Graduate admissions are competitive. And the job prospects in Neuroscience aren't great, especially if you want to stay in academia- even more so if you want to stay at the research end of academia.

If you want a research university faculty job, you need to go to a prestigious school to have a good shot, and even then I know people who have been years on the job market.

I'm not trying to discourage you, just suggesting this is a good time to evaluate what you're willing to sacrifice for this, and why.

 

Read the last sentence in my first post.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Yuanyang

[GeoDUDE!]

I think its a bit telling that you only got a 3.3 in your post bacc. Not to be discouraging on purpose, but its probably not your 2.3 thats killing you, but the 3.3. I don't know what courses you took, but unless they are all upper division courses OUTSIDE your field of interest, there really is no excuse to get such a low GPA. Most of the adcoms were probably worried that with teaching + research + courses you might fail out. 

 

I'm assuming you did a postbac to offset your 2.3 for graduate school admissions, what stopped you from getting close to a 4.0? 

 

If you do get into a masters program, your going to need to 4.0 it, or close, or I doubt you will get into the kind of program you want to. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by GeoDUDE!

[Yuanyang]

So it seems the consensus is for me to apply to a masters program. I don't know if its the only way but it might be considering circumstances.

 

I have some trepidation for applying to a masters program in neuroscience. I've tried this before, 3 years ago before I got the job at MIT. I applied to 5 masters programs in the US, Canada, and UK, all were rejected. I fear that either my grades still affected me or that my background simply does not qualify me to study neuroscience. I might have to choose a program that does not do research, does not require research expereince, and does not have a minimum GPA or even requires a GRE; at least it will be easier to get into. Problem is, most of those kinds of school do not offer neuroscience. Does anyone know if the school or type of program matters? If I get high marks completing a masters degree at a low-level program in a different field (like biology or psychology) will it matter to a neuroscience admissions committee? I'm also considering doing a masters in computer science or bioinformatics, I have an interest in computational neuroscience and it was something related to what I did at my technical job at MIT.

[Vene]

Did you ever ask how low? This is the most depressing part. I had literally strangers from Harvard look at my transcripts and say "its not that bad" when likely the adcom would have thrown the whole application in the trash. For once, the internet people were right.

Sub 3.0 GPAs. I'm not saying it's common, just that it has happened. Regardless, I maintain that applying for so many high prestige programs was a big mistake. Either do a masters and get near a 4.0 or aim lower.

[GeoDUDE!]

 

So it seems the consensus is for me to apply to a masters program. I don't know if its the only way but it might be considering circumstances.

 

I have some trepidation for applying to a masters program in neuroscience. I've tried this before, 3 years ago before I got the job at MIT. I applied to 5 masters programs in the US, Canada, and UK, all were rejected. I fear that either my grades still affected me or that my background simply does not qualify me to study neuroscience. I might have to choose a program that does not do research, does not require research expereince, and does not have a minimum GPA or even requires a GRE; at least it will be easier to get into. Problem is, most of those kinds of school do not offer neuroscience. Does anyone know if the school or type of program matters? If I get high marks completing a masters degree at a low-level program in a different field (like biology or psychology) will it matter to a neuroscience admissions committee? I'm also considering doing a masters in computer science or bioinformatics, I have an interest in computational neuroscience and it was something related to what I did at my technical job at MIT.

 

 

 

You need to do a research based program regardless. No one cares anymore if you can 4.0 just classes. They care if you can 4.0 classes while having teaching and research requirements. 

 

I'm not in your field, but I think the thought process is the same: can you take courses, do research, teach, study for quals, and not go insane or fail out? If you get into a masters program, and succeed, it will answer all of those questions (with the exception of quals).

 

Another thing about your research, while its nice, and you've done a lot of it, one wonders why none of the research you've done (and been at it so long) has resulted in a first author paper. That would do a lot to offset your GPA. Perhaps you can work on that too, if its possible. 

 

My uGPA was basically 3.0, so I barely fit the minimum.  I did a masters at a unranked school (with thesis) got near a 4.0 and did a great thesis and now am at a great program for my PhD.  

 

For me, grades were just a switch. A matter of me doing homework. You have to decide why you were failing and if its even possible for you to fix it. 

 

Not trying to be discouraging again, but you are making real life choices and you owe it to yourself to REALLY think this through. If you can't confront yourself like this (or perhaps you already have) you probably aren't cut out for academia to begin with. 

 

Like I said, your application is totally fixable, but just because its fixable doesn't mean its worth it (or that you can do it). 

Edited January 30, 2015 by GeoDUDE!

[Yuanyang]

 

I'm assuming you did a postbac to offset your 2.3 for graduate school admissions, what stopped you from getting close to a 4.0? 

 

 

 

 

I didn't explain it well in that blurb and I didn't calculate properly. I took 2 grad-level courses in neuroscience at Harvard Extension School (both As ), one neuroscience summer course at Friday harbor Labs (A). I also I took an undergrad course in physics and only got a B- for both semesters. I was told to take physics since I didn't do so when I did my bachelors. All together roughly its (3.6+3.6+3.6+2.5+2.5)/5 = 3.16 for all post-bacc courses.

 

 

Another question, do most masters programs come with teaching duties? I was under the impression that most terminal degrees do not require this nor do they offer much in terms of financial assistance from the program. I dont find your words discouraging, its just discouraging that I had to consider this now instead of earlier before I wasted 3 years in Boston. According to my doctor the problem has been fixed, its just a matter of getting into the program in the first place (and getting the money to payfor it).

Edited January 30, 2015 by Yuanyang

[GeoDUDE!]

 

Another question, do most masters programs come with teaching duties? I was under the impression that most terminal degrees do not require this nor do they offer much in terms of financial assistance from the program.

 

I don't know about your field, but my masters was fully funded by 4 semesters of TAing. 

 

At my current program, all students are funded, including masters. 

[NSG-mdx]

Someone may dislike the following suggestions I offered but I still want to speak them out. Based on your low undergrad GPA, it is also difficult to find a master program. Your path to graduate school and your future career is just like constructing a skyscraper, which requires really solid foundation to support it and this foundation is mainly based on your undergraduate study, research, standard test, recommendation etc. However, your low GPA really makes this foundation shakable and will always have negative impact on your application no matter what program you want to apply.

 

If you really want to go to graduate school and this is your real dream, then you must fight for it. I would suggest you take a second undergraduate degree from a new college and start everything from fresh. Someone may think it is time-consuming and unrealistic but this the only way to completely strengthen your foundation. During my interview, I even met a gentleman who was 40+ years old. If going to graduate school is your real dream, then age should not become a potential obstacle on your path to your dream.

[Yuanyang]

I don't know about your field, but my masters was fully funded by 4 semesters of TAing. 

 

At my current program, all students are funded, including masters. 

 

UC Davis I assume? Unfortunately the deadline for the neuroscience program has passed at that school. I could try another field that might accept on non-priority (psychology might still have space) but I would like more input if that would fix anything.

 

 

If you really want to go to graduate school and this is your real dream, then you must fight for it. I would suggest you take a second undergraduate degree from a new college and start everything from fresh. Someone may think it is time-consuming and unrealistic but this the only way to completely strengthen your foundation. During my interview, I even met a gentleman who was 40+ years old. If going to graduate school is your real dream, then age should not become a potential obstacle on your path to your dream.

 

At this rate, I fully anticipate being far past the prime age for making any great discoveries in my field by the time I enter a PhD program.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Yuanyang

[blinchik]

I'm going to chime in here and say that if you can raise your uGPA significantly or do a master's program and do extremely well, I think you could have a much better shot - I've talked to and heard of people with 2.9s or 2.8s (uGPA) getting in after having gotten a 3.7+ GPA in a master's program, so I really think that is the Achilles heel. If possible, I think it would not be a bad idea to talk to some sort of academic advisor/career counselor who understands graduate admissions, and gives you advice on how to best address it. It's just the luck of the draw that neuroscience is (for whatever reason) even worse/more competitive than regular graduate admissions!

Edited January 30, 2015 by blinchik

[Yuanyang]

 If possible, I think it would not be a bad idea to talk to some sort of academic advisor/career counselor who understands graduate admissions, and gives you advice on how to best address it. 

 

Read my signature.

[Eigen]

Also, you can't raise your undergrad GPA post-graduation, it's set.

 

I know you didn't like my post, but I did read the last sentence of yours. I didn't tell you to pick a new career, I suggested you think about exactly what you're willing to sacrifice, as well as what parts of being an academic neuroscientists are most important to you.

 

It will determine what you need to do over the next 8-10 years.

 

If you want to teach at a 4 year, you need a different path than if you want to work at an R1, which needs a different path than if you want to, say, work at one of the NIH labs.

 

A 2.3 undergrad GPA is really hard to overcome. You'd want a 4.0 or very close post-graduate GPA to counterbalance it, especially considering that a C is usually failing in graduate courses.

 

For a program to admit you with a 2.3 GPA, they'll have to pull a lot of favors with the graduate school to bypass the school-wide requirements. For the department to want to pull those favors, you'll need to be one of the best, if not the best applicant that year.

 

You've been working at MiT for 3 years- did you ask the faculty there why you didn't get in? The network you've built there, as well as (hopefully) going to conferences and presenting your work over the last 3 years is your best bet at getting in. The personal connections are what is most likely to make someone willing to cash in favors to get you into a school, coupled with a good portfolio of research and (hopefully) first author or really solid second author publications.

 

I'd also suggest not being terse and abrasive to people trying to give you advice.