Art & Debt

[technotronic]

I posted something similar on the Yale thread, but thought I'd open it up into a larger conversation.  Now that all of our applications are in, I'd like to start a conversation about the financial considerations of the decision making process.  One of the questions I have is - is it worth all of the expense and possible long-term debt to come out with a prestigious degree?  Or would it make more sense to choose a school with less name brand appeal if it meant being well, or even fully funded? 

 

What do you all think?  Would you opt for Yale or Columbia or SAIC at well over $100,000 for two years (with all expenses considered) versus another good program without the brand name appeal?  I'd love to hear why or why not.

Edited February 2, 2015 by technotronic

[thepictureisstill]

I'm going to go wherever tuition is free. I want to be a practicing artist after school (I see teaching down the line, say 10 years or so) and want to make the best work possible. Debt, for me, will only hinder that. I want the $200 a month (that would go towards a loan payment) to be put towards materials, applying to shows or paying my rent so I have somewhere to live. Applying for professorial positions is incredibly competitive; I'd rather focus on making great work and being able to travel more- a large part of my practice and motivation-rather than worry about a loan payment. My parents make a decent amount of money; I'm 25 years old though and totally on my own. They are not picking up the bill at a university. Therefore, those schools that take family income into consideration would make me pay full price for such an education...no thanks. I wouldn't dare ask my parents for such an exorbitant amount when I know I'll be offered much better packages (for me, personally) at other schools.

 

Technotronic, have you heard Teresita Fernández's "On Amnesia, Broken Pottery, and the Inside of a Form"? Give it a listen if not...She talks about living in cheap place after graduating so you can actually make work instead of stressing about money. That's my philosophy on loans as well. You can listen to it here: http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/12/29/teresita-fernandez-commencement-address/

Brainpickings also just totally rocks and I adore everything Maria Popova writes.

Thank you for starting this thread, I'd love to hear others' opinions...

 

Above all, the work speaks for itself.

[technotronic]

thepictureisstill, thank you so much for encouraging me to listen to this talk.  So beautiful!  It was just what I needed to hear today. 

 

And thanks for your thoughtful response on this topic.  I think it's such a fine balance - what it means to prioritize the work and the making, at the same time as what it means to get it out into the world.

[tincanevening]

thepictureisstill - Thank you for sharing Teresita Fernández's talk! Wow, she nails it. That was exactly what I needed to hear, too.

 

On topic, I'm torn about how much debt is worth accumulating for a top tier school. I think it would be easier to make better art without loans, but at the same time, I think part of the reason for getting an MFA is for the community and, well, connections. I personally would never take out $100k in loans, but I would take out $20-30 for the right program. At least that's what I'm thinking now. The other main reason I see for doing it is for the concentrated time in the studio, but you don't really need grad school for that.

[thepictureisstill]

It's a very personal decision. My partner took out $30k to pay for his undergrad…turns into $50k and $60k veeeeery quickly with interest…it's essentially the interest that fucks you. Also pretty sure if it's a government loan, you have to begin paying it back immediately upon graduation- unlike undergrad where you had six months or could defer payments. I work a day job now and want to figure out how to live off grants and award money for as long as possible after graduation so I don't have to go back to rationing my art time. I think the "community" you get from graduate programs is moreso your fellow students than anything else; this is what I've been told by my mentors. 
If it's really your dream school, trust your gut. If you have doubts, address those.  It's also really early on in the game..see how it all plays out. One of my close friends got into a top-tier school as her first acceptance (with little financial aid) and received a fellowship at Penn State as her last acceptance- she went with the fellowship. She was very, very pleased with her decision and she hasn't had to get a day job since she graduated a couple years ago. 
It's hard to look so far out in the future! 

[tincanevening]

Solid advice. Having those first years after grad school to focus on making work, and not worrying about getting a full-time job to pay off debt, sounds like the way to go. I don't have any debt from undergrad (I went to a state school with a full ride), so perhaps I don't have a healthy fear of it! The idea of 30k doubling is terrifying. The burden of debt would definitely limit one's ability to accept opportunities! 

[seeingeyeduck]

Yeah, I don't think 100K is worth it unless you are affluent and have cash to spare. It's already going to cost to apply to residencies and opportunities once I get out of school; I'd prefer to come out debt free. Even if the tuition is covered there's still living expenses to consider, so things seem expensive to me already. We were talking about this a few weeks ago and someone mentioned local artists who had stopped paying their student loans in order to put more into their artwork. Sounds scary as hell to me. Avoid debt like the plague...

[Czarina]

I'm close to 15K deep in debt from undergrad. I've made payments on and off over the years when I've been able to afford it, but ended up at square one because of interest. No more debt for me. Can't have it.

 

Over the years I've watched friends struggle with garnished wages, overdrawn bank accounts, and daily harassment from debt collectors. I don't mean to sound dogmatic. Other artists' decisions are none of my business. I've just made the personal decision that I won't go back to school until I manage to get a full ride (or close to it), even if it takes more than one round of apps, or opting for a solid state school instead of an Ivy.

[thecoalmine]

It's a very subjective opinion depending on so many things.

 

I racked up $140k debt on undergrad. My parents didn't pay for school, never gave me a dime for my books, brushes, fuel, or anything related to school whatsoever - and I never asked - I was on my own. But considering that when I was enrolling in undergrad and applying for aid, and they make a decent amount of money, there were a lot of grants/awards that I couldn't get, despite that they were not helping with tuition or supplies whatsoever. So I had to use loans for funding, and a $90k scholarship. 

 

Without going into detail, that debt has been utterly debilitating since leaving school. I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. To spend that much money on an education / building skills/desire, and be crippled by it in the end (and unable to USE those skills as a result), is an awful situation to be in.

 

So, in my world, $100k will never be worth it again. I don't regret spending the money on undergrad, because I loved it and I wouldn't trade that education or community, nor the experiences I had, for the world,  but I would have far done more to secure better financial assistance and done more internships/work experiences to help secure something beyond graduation. (I spent the entirety of my undergrad working 25-30hr/week tending bar, mucking stalls, doing whatever job I could, to afford supplies/fuel/etc and passed up all the good unpaid internships and work experiences that, while not paying then, would have helped me in the longer run.)

 

Branding and prestige aren't even on my radar. How much funding the school will offer and what sort of work opportunities (teaching assistantships, etc) are available are more important to me. I see postgrad as an opportunity to focus exclusively on developing your practice in a critical environment, and while faculty do matter, most things are what you make of them. 

 

This article is well worth a read:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/01/this-college-instructor-has-a-masters-degree-and-shes-still-living-in-poverty/

[Milkyways]

I am with you when you say that it's much better to invest in materials than to worry about a debt. And debt is scary. I myself am just applying to fully funded programs. But the question is , do these top schools really offer a better future overall? It's not just the prestige or the networking opportunities, it's more the fact that "SAIC" or "Yale" written in your curriculum might give you many more chances of being chosen in most art-related institutions. You will have more chances of being seen by curators, of being chosen for residencies, and even being hired in a university. You might get more fellowships to produce more work, you might even be hired for other culture-related jobs... I don't know if this is true, but I guess this is what many think when they engage in a $100 k debt for an MFA.

 

 

Some friends from Hunter were saying that prestigious schools (which are not necessarily the same as prestigious programs), may be an advantage for the first 2 years after graduation, and then it will be the work that will matter the most. I don't know what to make of this. As far as gallery representation, I recall reading an analysis in the grad cafe about the percentage of artists with a bfa or mfa from prestigious schools being the majority. 

 

In my case, I am not commercial, it is not within my goals to be sold in galleries, but I do worry about earning a living so I can live an artist life. This is when choosing a prestigious school stops being a frivolous decision. Even so, I wouldn't dare judging people for doing it only for the connections. It's their bet.

At the end it all depends on your reasons to pursue an mfa. It's already an investment of both time and money. 

 

 

Honestly, if you're not wealthy enough and don't have a monetary support system that could provide you with economic help (such as wealthy parents), going in such a debt is quite a risky bet. Nothing guarantees that you will be successful, even with the advantage provided by the name of the program.

 

The article went in the opposite direction of your ideas thecoalmine, it actually implied that this woman didn't become successful partly because she didn't attend a prestigious university...

Edited March 6, 2015 by Milkyways

[blondertongue]

I specifically went to a full ride undergrad because I wanted the option of affordable loans for grad school and the freedom to choose whatever program suited me best. I think either decision -- big name school or full ride 'lesser known' have their own risks. With a lesser known school you run the risk of relying exclusively on your work to speak for you. We all know the world isn't that black and white and that its usually a combination of connections and talent that really make the difference. That being said, not every artist that has a successful post grad life really is that talented (imo). And not every talented artist gets the respect they deserve.

What I worry about with more affordable programs is the same thing I struggled with in undergrad-- trying to build all those connections on my own. I guess I'm in the camp of biggest/best known program I can reasonably afford and pay off within 10 yrs. I had s friend who went to Columbia, sold a piece from his thesis show and paid of all his loans in one shot. It's not impossible to handle loans reasonably.

[NYTreader]

How often do fine art students get a FULL ride at these schools? I have seen a few offers, but not that many. So what is the reality of funding for graduate art students?

[thepictureisstill]

How often do fine art students get a FULL ride at these schools? I have seen a few offers, but not that many. So what is the reality of funding for graduate art students?

Which schools are you talking about? It's more about finding the right place for your work. Some schools aren't fully funded though and some just have 1 full ride per department. That's research you have to do beforehand so you know what you're getting into. I think the caliber of my work isn't anything special compared to what else I've seen on this site but I was offered full rides + more than enough extra money...so I think the reality is very present. Just gotta find the right outlet. 

 

Blondertongue- I agree with you 100%. One has to personally look at their work (leave the emotional attachment at the door) and really ask themselves if they can pay back those loans through selling work. For me, I don't make stuff that has any worth as a commodity.

[NYTreader]

Of course different schools have different funding! No question. But if you're the one and only student who gets the money pot (lucky you), it doesn't leave much funding for anybody else. Your reality might not be typical for others or even most grad students. I'm curious about how many of these accepted grad students have any funding and how it is structured. Do they guarantee the first year but not the second? Are some of these programs cash cows? I'm curious how differently these programs are structured.

[Leahdog]

Does anyone know how much RISD gives in scholarships? This is the only school that's kinda mysterious to me about what they offer... I heard 10K, 20K, or 30k are given out, but is that yearly or in total? I know it's kinda unlikely that I'll be offered one if I get in, but I'm just curious what the possibilities are.

[KSuverkrubbe]

Yeah I think it's really just on how 'not prestigious' the program is...There are some what I may call 'second tier' programs that are not as well known , but active artists/ painters still know about them and how they are....plus if they are cheaper, go with it.

Edited March 13, 2015 by KSuverkrubbe

[obviouslytma]

Does anyone know how much RISD gives in scholarships? This is the only school that's kinda mysterious to me about what they offer... I heard 10K, 20K, or 30k are given out, but is that yearly or in total? I know it's kinda unlikely that I'll be offered one if I get in, but I'm just curious what the possibilities are.

 

I think it varies by department - I think photo tries to distribute their funding evenly across all accepted students but the person I spoke to let me know that each department decides what they do with their pool of funding.

[KSuverkrubbe]

I've heard floating on the interwebs that large funding is rare for certain programs. I'm sure they give some money, but probably not a majority tuition offer.

 

I am thinking that RISD is probably going to be like what I've been offered from 2 schools so far...about 30,000 dollar offer total for the  2 years , and that's a 'high level' scholarship (or so they tell me). There may be a full tuition scholarship for a VERY VERY lucky single student, but I am not sure.

[gwen]

Ok...so here's a scenario for you guys: 

 

If you get into a program that you think is perfect for you, that has been one of your top choices since the beginning, but you have to take out $40,000 in loans the first year and possibly the second year (but there are opportunities for further funding the 2nd year) do you go? 

 

The thing i keep thinking is I can't imagine getting into a program I like as much and that would present me with the more opportunities by waiting another year (I've been out of undergrad for 6 years). So do I go in debt for the amazing program? Also I don't have another offer to leverage for more aid...should I still try asking for more? 

 

Also, there is the debt forgiveness program where if you work in a public university or nonprofit for 10 years (which is already my plan anyway) they forgive direct federal loans 

 

Not sure...usually I have a gut feeling about decisions like this...but I just don't with this one

[Milkyways]

Ok...so here's a scenario for you guys: 

 

If you get into a program that you think is perfect for you, that has been one of your top choices since the beginning, but you have to take out $40,000 in loans the first year and possibly the second year (but there are opportunities for further funding the 2nd year) do you go? 

 

The thing i keep thinking is I can't imagine getting into a program I like as much and that would present me with the more opportunities by waiting another year (I've been out of undergrad for 6 years). So do I go in debt for the amazing program? Also I don't have another offer to leverage for more aid...should I still try asking for more? 

 

Also, there is the debt forgiveness program where if you work in a public university or nonprofit for 10 years (which is already my plan anyway) they forgive direct federal loans 

 

Not sure...usually I have a gut feeling about decisions like this...but I just don't with this one

Gwen, try asking for more in a polite way; ask them for more funding options to see if they can help you with something more. 40 k/year is quite a lot, but generally these universities know how to help their students find more funding. 

[Czarina]

The Income-Based Repayment (IBR) plan is definitely something to consider in making your decision (https://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-driven).

[KSuverkrubbe]

Ok...so here's a scenario for you guys: 

 

If you get into a program that you think is perfect for you, that has been one of your top choices since the beginning, but you have to take out $40,000 in loans the first year and possibly the second year (but there are opportunities for further funding the 2nd year) do you go? 

 

The thing i keep thinking is I can't imagine getting into a program I like as much and that would present me with the more opportunities by waiting another year (I've been out of undergrad for 6 years). So do I go in debt for the amazing program? Also I don't have another offer to leverage for more aid...should I still try asking for more? 

 

Also, there is the debt forgiveness program where if you work in a public university or nonprofit for 10 years (which is already my plan anyway) they forgive direct federal loans 

 

Not sure...usually I have a gut feeling about decisions like this...but I just don't with this one

You can ask about other funding options. '

 

If you don't have a better or equivalent offer on the table don't bring up other offers.Just ask about more funding.. I asked if it was possible for them to award funding in the second year for top performers (i think that this is just fair- if people don't hold up after the first year, the people with less funding should have a competitive chance)...But not all universities will offer more in the second year- it's pretty much all awarded at the start. Again, I don't think that's fair to not give people a chance but just ask about it in case that school does.

 

To me the difference again, would be between how much of a difference i saw in the two programs.

Edited March 26, 2015 by KSuverkrubbe