2015 Rejections

[Childermass]

Mine's still not... guess they have a lot coming through the pipeline...

 

Not seeing a decision letter yet either.

[youngcharlie101]

So...not sour grapes here or anything (honest!), but...for a $125 application fee, wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of sentences about why you didn't make the cut and what you could do to make it better for next time?

 

I know that's largely untenable, given the number of applicants, but it's one of my biggest annoyances about the process -- the lack of knowing what, if anything, you did "wrong" and/or what you could improve upon.

 

I suppose this is all part and parcel of the "transparency" issue (read: lack thereof).

I seriously second this.

[fancypants09]

I don't know. I got accepted to two top 12 English programs at the age of 34, (35 when I began coursework). And further, I was applying from an unranked state school that does not even offer Ph.Ds.

Not to hijack this thread but I think the age factor depends on rhe culture of the department and the school to which you apply. I'll be 32 when I start this fall; my POI at UCLA (non-English lit) and the faculty in my area of interest are a good 10 years older than me. I did have a (quite literally) one minute chat about age with a professor from college in a related field who told me that I am still young and that I should go for it; many other friends in academia echoed similar sentiments, except for those who succeeded on the conservative/traditional track.

[Katla]

So...not sour grapes here or anything (honest!), but...for a $125 application fee, wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of sentences about why you didn't make the cut and what you could do to make it better for next time?

I know that's largely untenable, given the number of applicants, but it's one of my biggest annoyances about the process -- the lack of knowing what, if anything, you did "wrong" and/or what you could improve upon.

I suppose this is all part and parcel of the "transparency" issue (read: lack thereof).

I couldn't agree more... Feedback, even if it was just one line would be really helpful -from all the programmes -and could probably give the best idea about what is based on something wet can work on our sheer fit...

[angel_kaye13]

Just got word of my Stanford rejection! That was the last one in, for me, and it was preceded by happy news from another program. I don't know if the same will happen for all of us, but hugs and consolation all around, all~ Praying that, whatever comes, some joy will also result.~ Cheers, mates.~

[__________________________]

So...not sour grapes here or anything (honest!), but...for a $125 application fee, wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of sentences about why you didn't make the cut and what you could do to make it better for next time?

 

I know that's largely untenable, given the number of applicants, but it's one of my biggest annoyances about the process -- the lack of knowing what, if anything, you did "wrong" and/or what you could improve upon.

 

I suppose this is all part and parcel of the "transparency" issue (read: lack thereof).

 

Yes.  Especially since the most selective, elite, monied schools with professors who probably are the least overworked also have the highest application fees.  Apparently (at least from what I've read around here, the results pages, and my one outright rejection so far), these same schools have the least personal rejection notifications too.  Funny how that works.

[1Q84]

So...not sour grapes here or anything (honest!), but...for a $125 application fee, wouldn't it be nice to have a couple of sentences about why you didn't make the cut and what you could do to make it better for next time?

 

I know that's largely untenable, given the number of applicants, but it's one of my biggest annoyances about the process -- the lack of knowing what, if anything, you did "wrong" and/or what you could improve upon.

 

I suppose this is all part and parcel of the "transparency" issue (read: lack thereof).

 

I don't know, like you said, the number of applicants makes it impossible to provide feedback. I'm sure if you requested feedback on your app individually, the adcomm would try to respond.

 

I look at it in the same way with my students: it's unreasonable to expect me to leave detailed feedback on every student's 20 page paper that I grade and surely 90% of them would just chuck the essay without reading the notes regardless of how detailed or insightful they were. So I always announce to the class that I'm more than happy to provide mounds of feedback and suggestions for improvement one-on-one during office hours. I feel that type of interaction is more helpful than form-feedback anyway. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

I couldn't agree more... Feedback, even if it was just one line would be really helpful -from all the programmes -and could probably give the best idea about what is based on something wet can work on our sheer fit...

 

Oh. Yeah. I definitely meant all the programs, even though I only stated Stanford.

 

It IS untenable, really, but boy would it provide a lot more solace...

 

 

As for the age issue, I think it can be a factor. It's hard to say if it was a factor in my case specifically (again, no transparency in the process), but even if it's a contributing factor, it's no less legitimate. Unfortunately that's one thing I can't change. I'll be 37 when I start the next (presumably final) attempt to get into a Ph.D. program, and I can't deny that it's weighing on my mind quite a bit. It's funny, because I am a very "young" 35. Not in terms of maturity etc. of course, but in most other ways. My wife and I often marvel at the fact that we're both in our mid-thirties. It's kind of astounding to us.

 

I regret not going down this path when I was in my twenties, but sometimes it just takes people a bit longer to find the path. Hell, that's what a solid 1/3 of all poetry is about!

[BLeonard]

I don't know.  I got accepted to two top 12 English programs at the age of 34, (35 when I began coursework).  And further, I was applying from an unranked state school that does not even offer Ph.Ds.  

Yeah, I have to push back on this as well -- I spoke to a lot of professors in my department at a well-ranked school, and several of those professors are nationally known. All of them knew I was applying at an age older than most candidates, and not one mentioned that my age would be a problem down the line.

[lifealive]

I don't know.  I got accepted to two top 12 English programs at the age of 34, (35 when I began coursework).  And further, I was applying from an unranked state school that does not even offer Ph.Ds.  

 

There are always exceptions, like I said. But I would always tell someone to bank on being the norm rather than the exception. Were there a lot of other older grad students in your program?

[Childermass]

Mark me down as a no for Stanford as well.  Letter finally uploaded.

[NowMoreSerious]

There are always exceptions, like I said. But I would always tell someone to bank on being the norm rather than the exception. Were there a lot of other older grad students in your program?

 

I'm one of the older students in the entire program (2nd year).  And I'm also probably among the oldest to start (For example, some of the students older than me in the program have been there like 5 years).  But I bet a lot of that has to do with the fact that just less people in their mid-30's apply in the first place.  

[lifealive]

Yeah, I have to push back on this as well -- I spoke to a lot of professors in my department at a well-ranked school, and several of those professors are nationally known. All of them knew I was applying at an age older than most candidates, and not one mentioned that my age would be a problem down the line.

 

To provide a counter-anecdote, I was very closely tied to a search committee a few years ago, and I heard a few members articulate that they were deliberately looking to hire a "young" and "less experienced" candidate. They said they wanted someone with their entire careers ahead of them. The people we ended up bringing to campus were 28 and 29 respectively.

 

In fact, we've made several hires in the past few years, and almost all those hires were under 33.

[Katla]

I don't know, like you said, the number of applicants makes it impossible to provide feedback. I'm sure if you requested feedback on your app individually, the adcomm would try to respond.

I look at it in the same way with my students: it's unreasonable to expect me to leave detailed feedback on every student's 20 page paper that I grade and surely 90% of them would just chuck the essay without reading the notes regardless of how detailed or insightful they were. So I always announce to the class that I'm more than happy to provide mounds of feedback and suggestions for improvement one-on-one during office hours. I feel that type of interaction is more helpful than form-feedback anyway.

Of course giving feedback to all applications is not a possible solution.

However, while I must confess that I didn't ask for feedback after my first round and haven't asked any of my rejection unis this time either the general vibe I have received through the rejection letters is that feedback is not an option. A line hunting at the option, should one choose to take the initiative would go a long way though I understand why they're unwilling to encourage this

[NowMoreSerious]

To provide a counter-anecdote, I was very closely tied to a search committee a few years ago, and I heard a few members articulate that they were deliberately looking to hire a "young" and "less experienced" candidate. They said they wanted someone with their entire careers ahead of them. The people we ended up bringing to campus were 28 and 29 respectively.

 

In fact, we've made several hires in the past few years, and almost all those hires were under 33.

 

There may be two different discussions going on here.  Personally, I'm talking about Ph.D. acceptances, not the job market. 

[BLeonard]

Yeah, I was more talking about the PhD programs acceptances, not the job market. I know that if I do get into a PhD program, I'm going to have to work harder than my peers to make myself a more attractive candidate to search committees after graduation.

[lifealive]

There may be two different discussions going on here.  Personally, I'm talking about Ph.D. acceptances, not the job market. 

 

I'm talking about both because the two things are very related. Grad programs like to take people who will be employable.

[fancypants09]

I'm talking about both because the two things are very related. Grad programs like to take people who will be employable.

I feel like age is just one of a myriad of issues that affect acceptances and job prospects down the road. If a school REALLY wanted you they would seriously put up a fight for you regardless of age; if not, they will find every reason to turn you away, age being one of them. I've heard the argument against younger candidates, both for PhD student and later TT jobs; that they didn't have enough life experience to bring new perspectives into scholarship being a major one.

[1Q84]

Mark me down as a no for Stanford as well.  Letter finally uploaded.

 

Same. Love the delayed release punch in the face.

 

Of course giving feedback to all applications is not a possible solution.

However, while I must confess that I didn't ask for feedback after my first round and haven't asked any of my rejection unis this time either the general vibe I have received through the rejection letters is that feedback is not an option. A line hunting at the option, should one choose to take the initiative would go a long way though I understand why they're unwilling to encourage this

 

You're right... a simple extra line in the rejection letter would help immensely. I'll be honest: I barely ever read rejection letters. The whole thing hurts too much.

[Childermass]

Same. Love the delayed release punch in the face.

 

 

You're right... a simple extra line in the rejection letter would help immensely. I'll be honest: I barely ever read rejection letters. The whole thing hurts too much.

 

I suspect Stanford's admissions system is not designed for us, the neurotic.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Childermass

[Dr. Old Bill]

Great news! You're all correct!

 

Bad news! You're all wrong!

 

 

 

The problem is that there's really no way of knowing why adcomms choose many of the folks they do. There are some surefire candidates, and I know first-hand that some particularly successful GCers this cycle are indeed of that ilk (hard to explain, but sometimes you just know). But other than the cream of the crop, there are still a large number of "half and half" candidates taken as well, and that's the group that it's all but impossible to predict.

 

That's why one of my biggest bugaboos about this process is the lack of transparency. I've been talking about it a lot around here lately, so I won't spend more time grinding that particular axe, but until there is transparency to the process (which would be aided by brief explanations of why an applicant wasn't selected -- it doesn't need to become a dialogue), then it's really just guesswork on our part. Maybe my age played against me. Maybe my start at a community college (later offset by a high-prestige undergrad college) played against me. Maybe it was my slightly-lower-than-average-for-English-applicants GRE verbal score. Maybe it was something in my SOP...perhaps even a single sentence! Maybe it was something in my WS...not challenging enough? Seriously, I could write a dozen paragraphs speculating about things that might have caused a shutout of Ph.D. programs. Before acceptances and rejections came piling up, I could have written a dozen paragraphs describing all the things I that I thought could make me a superior candidate. The bottom line is that we don't know, and we're not going to know what it was. Sad, but it's the nature of the game. I'll go into the next round more informed, but even then I won't be able to think I've found the magic bullet.

[hreaðemus]

*waves timidly*

 

I'd just like to second WT's comment on the complexity of all this. I feel a bit self-conscious posting on the rejections thread when I've been so fortunate with acceptances this season, but I did want to say: I'll be 30 on Sunday, and I come from a working class background, and I transferred to my undergrad institution with literally ZERO academic ambition. No awards, no plans, no connections, very little money.

 

Lots of things can work for or against us in this process - but most can be overcome, I think, if you work hard in the right place with the right idea at the right time. Luck comes in many forms!

[margeryhemp]

Rejected from Stanford! Probably implied from Harvard. Congrats to everyone today-- and I totally agree about the rejection letters, haha.

[jhefflol]

Just posting to say that my U Delaware decision ended up being a rejection   I've resigned myself to my plan B and I'm alright with that! I'm actually looking forward to the opportunities I will have by not pursuing a PhD. I just wish I had realized this before spending a good chunk of money. I'll just call it tuition  Bring on the rest of the rest of the 9 rejections I'm sure I have waiting for me!

[lifealive]

*waves timidly*

 

I'd just like to second WT's comment on the complexity of all this. I feel a bit self-conscious posting on the rejections thread when I've been so fortunate with acceptances this season, but I did want to say: I'll be 30 on Sunday, and I come from a working class background, and I transferred to my undergrad institution with literally ZERO academic ambition. No awards, no plans, no connections, very little money.

 

Lots of things can work for or against us in this process - but most can be overcome, I think, if you work hard in the right place with the right idea at the right time. Luck comes in many forms!

 

Your application was probably really compelling, and awesome. Like I said, certain factors can mitigate the obstacles that one faces, and there are always exceptions--just as there are exceptions with GRE scores and GPAs. But I don't think we should rush to exonerate this process as fair when there is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary. I also resist the advice that people just "work harder" if only for the fact that people DO work really hard and still come up empty-handed. What I would like to see instead of this kind of encouragement is an acknowledgment that these kinds of longstanding institutional biases are wrong. It's wrong to discriminate against candidates because of their age or where they got their BA, even unconsciously.

 

The problem with the "hard work/luck" narrative is that it obscures the fact that this line of work trades in privilege, and unfortunately this obsession with privilege is now compounded by the fact that academia has become a business. Programs are looking at candidates not just as potential grad students but as investments, and you want to invest your few resources in the students who will finish in as little time as possible and transition smoothly into jobs. It's basically all about "moving the risk off your books" now. So this has led programs to play it safe with graduate admissions.

 

But I think we need to be aware of this issue if only for the fact that it's really easy to replicate this whole system. I see people who fought hard to get into a good school--and that's great--but because the process worked for them, they have a skewed sense of how it worked (or didn't) for other people. So those people who didn't get into the dream program become people who simply didn't work as hard, weren't as smart, or didn't have the "good sense" to keep trying until they got an acceptance to the top schools. And then people's scholarship gets viewed in that context, and it gets assumed that you can't produce good scholarship unless you've come from a certain type of school. And on and on. 

Edited February 21, 2015 by lifealive