Dr. Old Bill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I can think of no other industry (and yes, it is an industry) where people expect that getting the dream is the norm -- we need to start diversifying and becoming more flexible just anyone else. I don't know, MM...is there really that expectation now? I'm not being argumentative -- I just don't know if that's really the case. I know that I personally haven't held that expectation at any point in the process. I'm sure there are some special snowflakes out there who do have that expectation, but unless I'm being woefully naive (always possible), I think most people going down this road are aware of the perils of the industry. The ideal for many remains the ever-elusive TT job at an R1, but anyone who spends any time at all reading any of the industry publications like The Chronicle knows that even CC jobs aren't sure bets...and that adjuncting often a poverty line proposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InHacSpeVivo Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Not to derail, but in the interest of full disclosure: rejected (via post, how retro!) from Milwaukee. Not biggie, except I only applied because of a very encouraging POI e-mail. I would have spent the time/money on another program if not for that e-mail (UMD and Brown profs seem to have mastered this balancing act). And back to the interesting discussion at hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmt Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Well, rejected by BU, and with the waitlist notice this morning from UMD, I know where I stand, at least, with all four applications. There's a part of me that wishes I'd applied to 15 schools, but there's value in narrowing / focusing, too. The strange thing is that the schools I thought were closest to my particular subject area - both strong in 19th C and music / popular culture - were the flat-out rejects. If any 19th C Americanists admitted to UMD or Tufts are planning *not* to attend, please do a brother a favor and say so to them. So's to keep my sanity, I'm gonna mostly stay away until I hear from them one way or the other. Best of luck to all who haven't heard from all of their schools yet. Congratulations to those who have had good news lately. Condolences to those with less happy recent news. You're all articulate and kind and mutually supportive, and that gives me hope for the academia of the future. SilasWegg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilasWegg Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 We have to stop feeling entitled to that. I can think of no other industry (and yes, it is an industry) where people expect that getting the dream is the norm -- we need to start diversifying and becoming more flexible just anyone else. I can't agree more. There is no other industry where the labor market standard is basically a life appointment. It really irks me when my academic pals bemoan the state of the job market on the basis that their many years of elite training does not automatically entitle them to an esteemed and high-paying lifelong appointment. I've worked as a dishwasher, pizza delivery guy, baker, file clerk, and telemarketer... teaching and researching literature, though ruled by elitism and brutally competitive, offers far more job stability and financial reward than any of these various "career paths" I've tried. Basically, I've been on far more unsteady ladders to success (musician and writer) with far more discouraging results. We really have no right to complain. That said, I think the admissions process should be less prestige oriented. It doesn't seem like the prestige of an undergraduate degree is in any way a good predictor of success. Yet, it seems like this might be more of a factor in the application process than we are willing to admit. I would even argue that a wonky undergrad experience glaringly delimits the outcomes of an applicant's options. It makes me sad, is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Q84 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 To your original point about undergrad rep dragging you down, I've read quite a few times that a disastrous GPA can be offset by LOR explanations (especially if it's the prof who taught the class that you bombed). If you can integrate the explanation organically in your SOP, it can help mitigate it as a hindering factor as well. Not saying you didn't do this, but it certainly has helped others in the past overcome seemingly insurmountable undergrad records. We really have no right to complain. As for this, I don't know I'd go that far. Just because tenure-track appointments are insanely amazing in terms of stability and pay doesn't mean that the 90% of us being, for all intents and purposes, barred from those jobs don't have the right to complain. In fact, I think what we as aspiring professionals really should be doing a lot more complaining, and, ideally, acting on this issue. SilasWegg, ProfLorax, Lycidas and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenmt Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I don't know, MM...is there really that expectation now? I'm not being argumentative -- I just don't know if that's really the case. I know that I personally haven't held that expectation at any point in the process. I'm sure there are some special snowflakes out there who do have that expectation, but unless I'm being woefully naive (always possible), I think most people going down this road are aware of the perils of the industry. The ideal for many remains the ever-elusive TT job at an R1, but anyone who spends any time at all reading any of the industry publications like The Chronicle knows that even CC jobs aren't sure bets...and that adjuncting often a poverty line proposition. This is my second time on this merry-go-round; last spring ended with a grueling couple of months on a waitlist and ultimate rejection. I had plenty of time to think about the ways these assumptions are deeply embedded in all layers of the experience, from undergrad (where we valorize faculty with impressive publication lists, regardless of whether anyone learns anything in the classroom) to the clustering of applications toward top-tier programs, to the ways the programs themselves prepare applicants for the diminishing pool of tenure-track jobs to the exclusion of the many other possible professions for which a PhD prepares a person. This is understandable because these well-funded, well-resourced schools / programs are staffed by people who made it to the top of the heap, and presumably they recognize as success the thing they succeeded in doing. Friends with PhDs in the sciences or professions don't always expect to teach, sometimes because there's more money to be made outside the academy, sometimes because they can get pure-research gigs in for-profit-land, and sometimes because they want to be out doing the thing they were prepared to practice. I kinda feel like it's time for this profession - meaning humanities programs, meaning humanities faculty - to really put systems into place to support the professional development of students interested in alternative careers, instead of just saying, "Don't expect to be where I am in five years," and subscribing to versatilephd.com. Those systems might include offering equivalent fellowships for non-teaching department / school support, such as management of events, seeking financial support, writing business plans, and other things people will have to know how to do if they will truly be prepared for the alternative careers everyone says are out there. This is a bit of an ax to grind for me, you'll see: I've never taught and don't have a huge amount of interest in teaching, and I think there are other ways to advance the profession.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilasWegg Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 In fact, I think what we as aspiring professionals really should be doing a lot more complaining, and, ideally, acting on this issue. Agree... walking back my original comment. I wholeheartedly endorse the preservation of our right to complain, organize, and act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pannpann Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Okay guys, not to take away from the caliber of intelligent conversation regarding the future of the academe, but this week of rejections has been awful and I just discovered Cats of Instagram (late to the boat, I know) and I've decided that the only way to truly feel better is cats with bow ties. Now please continue with all the great points you guys are making. Edited February 18, 2015 by pannpann Hannalore and SilasWegg 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__________________________ Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) I don't know, MM...is there really that expectation now? I'm not being argumentative -- I just don't know if that's really the case. I know that I personally haven't held that expectation at any point in the process. I'm sure there are some special snowflakes out there who do have that expectation, but unless I'm being woefully naive (always possible), I think most people going down this road are aware of the perils of the industry. The ideal for many remains the ever-elusive TT job at an R1, but anyone who spends any time at all reading any of the industry publications like The Chronicle knows that even CC jobs aren't sure bets...and that adjuncting often a poverty line proposition. No, I agree. I guess I phrased that badly. I meant that with a lot of the statistics and the patronizing speech about how shitty the market is, there's an assumption that this is an exceptional situation. I wasn't trying to be offensive or argumentative either -- just suggesting (putting forth a question?) that maybe the relationship between employment and tier isn't quite as dramatic if we put less emphasis on TT jobs? I dunno. Whatever. Nevermind. I was just trying to suggest that maybe its not so bad to go the 46th best school instead of the 21st or 2nd. Because the job market for the "dream jobs" sucks for everyone, and the differences in placement between the different "tiers" doesn't seem as radically different than the hierarchy of "best" schools seems to suggest. No degree guarantees tenured employment -- I was just trying to say that the selectivity of the school doesn't seem to be in proportion at ALL with the competitiveness of the degree on the job market. It wasn't meant to be an argumentative or radical claim, so sorry if it sounded accusatory. The only argument I was putting forth was that the elitism is a sham and a facade. *phew* lol ETA: Sorry, missed you all from morristr down. I agree with you all too. Lol. <3 Edited February 18, 2015 by mollifiedmolloy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Old Bill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) It wasn't meant to be an argumentative or radical claim, so sorry if it sounded accusatory. The only argument I was putting forth was that the elitism is a shame and a facade. *phew* lol No no no no no no no. It didn't come across as argumentative, radical, OR accusatory, I assure you. I was just musing aloud (not literally, of course) about the lay of the land in that regard. Ultimately I agree that there needs to be a fundamental shift in how the industry works for the humanities, at least. I'm looking quite forward to Hypervodka's ultimate spreadsheet, because I get the sense that acceptances are down this year...which was predicted, of course. But with some places taking a measly FOUR new grad students, it starts becoming a zero-sum game for a large number of applicants. Frankly, I'm surprised as many people applied this time around as actually did...which only lends more credence to your perspective than my own. What this underscores is that more transparency in the admissions process would change the landscape somewhat...perhaps dramatically. Then again, I suspect that if that were to happen, it would be to various programs' detriment, rather than to their benefit. P.S.: Everything is awesome! Everything is cool when you're part of a team! Edited February 18, 2015 by Wyatt's Torch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__________________________ Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) This is my second time on this merry-go-round; last spring ended with a grueling couple of months on a waitlist and ultimate rejection. I had plenty of time to think about the ways these assumptions are deeply embedded in all layers of the experience, from undergrad (where we valorize faculty with impressive publication lists, regardless of whether anyone learns anything in the classroom) to the clustering of applications toward top-tier programs, to the ways the programs themselves prepare applicants for the diminishing pool of tenure-track jobs to the exclusion of the many other possible professions for which a PhD prepares a person. This is understandable because these well-funded, well-resourced schools / programs are staffed by people who made it to the top of the heap, and presumably they recognize as success the thing they succeeded in doing. Friends with PhDs in the sciences or professions don't always expect to teach, sometimes because there's more money to be made outside the academy, sometimes because they can get pure-research gigs in for-profit-land, and sometimes because they want to be out doing the thing they were prepared to practice. I kinda feel like it's time for this profession - meaning humanities programs, meaning humanities faculty - to really put systems into place to support the professional development of students interested in alternative careers, instead of just saying, "Don't expect to be where I am in five years," and subscribing to versatilephd.com. Those systems might include offering equivalent fellowships for non-teaching department / school support, such as management of events, seeking financial support, writing business plans, and other things people will have to know how to do if they will truly be prepared for the alternative careers everyone says are out there. This is a bit of an ax to grind for me, you'll see: I've never taught and don't have a huge amount of interest in teaching, and I think there are other ways to advance the profession.... And also yes. This is what we all want, right? The trouble is that science is profitable -- scientific research makes money. Humanities research doesn't. As long as our current capitalist economic systems continue expanding and growing, humanities will shrink and shrink. As a medievalist, I'm required to just say this: secularization and the introduction of capital is a bitch. Capitalism destroys culture. Done. Teaching is our main way of making money, but more and more people don't give a shit about what we have to teach because they know there's no money in it. Humanities-academia as an industry doesn't work because it isn't designed to be and isn't naturally an industry, which is why it's in such shitty shape. ETA: many heart shaped wishes to WT. Full disclosure: I just finished a day of teaching teenagers, so I guess I still feel like I'm being attacked from all sides. Edited February 18, 2015 by mollifiedmolloy Ramus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilasWegg Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 What this underscores is that more transparency in the admissions process would change the landscape somewhat...perhaps dramatically. Then again, I suspect that if that were to happen, it would be to various programs' detriment, rather than to their benefit. And this is precisely what I love about GC. Sometimes, it really feels like we have "hacked" the admissions process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Old Bill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 It's all good! I just received official notification that I was rejected at Princeton. The conversion of implication continues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilasWegg Posted February 18, 2015 Author Share Posted February 18, 2015 *hugs* to WT. "The Conversion of Implication" could make a nice title for a sonnet btw. pannpann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HesseBunuel90 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I just was rejected at WUSTL, a school I thought I had a chance at. Oh well. I'm hoping for a miracle now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Old Bill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) GAH! I just got a WUStL rejection as well. Seriously, this is the third time that rejections have come in pairs for me. Sheesh. Sorry Hesse. It was one of my "faint hope" schools as well. Edited February 18, 2015 by Wyatt's Torch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurayamino Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Argh, sorry for all the Princeton and WUStL red on the board. If pannpann's cat in a bowtie didn't help you feel better, maybe some purritos? lyonessrampant, Dr. Old Bill, pannpann and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Old Bill Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 1/2 an upvote for the picture, 1/2 for calling them "purritos." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhefflol Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Sorry about all of the rejections today. I can't believe I got 2 in one day after having absolute silence for the longest time. On another note, I got my comps questions and readers today, and I really feel as though I have been set up for success. I'm super familiar with my readers (one is my advisor and I've had 4 courses with him, one was a letter writer for my PhD apps, and the other is a brilliant lady who taught my shakespeare grad seminar and really helped me refine my research interests). All of the questions are either directly related to my specialization or touch on areas that interest me. I was so worried that my questions would be boring, causing the whole process to be a million times worse. My bad news I got today is significantly overpowered by this good news! Edited February 18, 2015 by jhefflol Dr. Old Bill and kurayamino 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slightlymoreanonymous Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Aww, sorry guys! As usual, I don't check here frequently enough to reply individually, but hang in there! I don't know if this is helpful, but I've found that channeling rejection blues into running or something active helps. And I think a certain amount of confidence (haha maybe a little arrogance) makes getting those letters easier. School X doesn't want me? Their loss! We can still do great things and have amazing, meaningful lives beyond this process. It in no way determines our worth as individuals! (Sorry, my inner resident assistant came out in full pep talk fashion.) Also, interesting conversation about capitalism and the academy! I think it might be too simplistic to equate capitalism with evil, though. It has its flaws, but works pretty well in many respects. (Just not in valuing humanities research, maybe.) pannpann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgt28 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I'm sorry, you guys. Virtual hugs for everyone. I find "So no one told you life was gonna be this wayyyyyyyyy" to be an appropriate dirge this evening. Yep, I think we just went there. youngcharlie101 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashJupiter Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 I took my Pitt rejection in stride, perhaps because I suspected it was coming a week ahead of time. Today's blunt, impersonal rejection from Calgary was devastating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
__________________________ Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 *hugs* to WT. "The Conversion of Implication" could make a nice title for a sonnet btw. Hm, I'm thinking sestina... Sorry to hear about all the rejections. Starting to think all of us Ivy rejects should get together for off-brand caviar and champagne some time... zanmato4794 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonton Soup Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Firmly, strongly disagree with the assessment that capitalism "works well in many respects." No. I do agree that we are being a bit simplistic here, but then this is gradcafe forums, not an academic journal or some other medium. Vent all you want, IMO =) pannpann, softcastlemccormick and bgt28 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarolineNC Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Firmly, strongly disagree with the assessment that capitalism "works well in many respects." No. I do agree that we are being a bit simplistic here, but then this is gradcafe forums, not an academic journal or some other medium. Vent all you want, IMO =) ditto softcastlemccormick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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