"Top5 + Generous Funding + Young Assistant Professor POI" vs "No.20 + Less Funding + Stronger Advisory Support(?)"

[lost_15]

Hello,

 

I've been debating which school I should attend, and I would appreciate any suggestions or comments.

 

School A:

Top 5 in the field, Ivy school, fellowship for 5 years. POI is a young assistant professor who just started.

 

School B:

Ranked about 20 in the field, public university, funding is limited (includes TA and not guaranteed for 5 years). POI is an associate professor, somewhat established.

POI's Ph.D. advisor, Prof. X, is one of my three references. Prof. X is an authority in my field, but he can't take me as his graduate student because he will retire soon, so he recommended me to one of his previous students -- POI at school B. Prof. X was like a mentor to me in the past year, and I know I can count on him if I encounter problems in my future study, if I go to school B. (I think I will lose his support if I go to school A, because that's in a different subfield.)

 

My career goal is to look for an academic position after I finish graduate school. I've looked at the CVs of many faculty members in my field, and almost all of them received their Ph.Ds from top schools. I haven't seen anyone with a Ph.D. from school B. So I'm quite worried what my future would be if I go to school B.

 

I'd be grateful for any advices or thoughts.

 

[jujubea]

When I get a moment I'll say more than this:

 

I'm amazed at the simple act of your fitting your dilemma all into your thread title!

[lost_15]

Thanks for the quick response, jujubea. I just wanted to save people some time...

[ERR_Alpha]

I would go with school A. Higher ranked and full funding would be hard to turn down. Young PIs can be just as good, if not better, mentors.

[Zero Cool]

The concern I would have is that Ivy's (and similar caliber schools) are notorious for denying folks tenure the first time around. I would look at the departments history with granting tenure to assistant prof's. 

[MathCat]

I think A looks better, but it comes with the risk of an untenured POI... what would happen if s/he does not get tenure? Are you admitted to work with that person in particular, or could you change? Do you know anything about how their publication record is, if they've had any students, etc? You say "just started", but I don't know how recently that means.

 

Unless your POI not getting tenured would be an absolute disaster (I admit to not being that educated about what would happen in that situation), I think it's still a lower risk option than B, where funding isn't guaranteed...

[GeoDUDE!]

I think A looks better, but it comes with the risk of an untenured POI... what would happen if s/he does not get tenure? Are you admitted to work with that person in particular, or could you change? Do you know anything about how their publication record is, if they've had any students, etc? You say "just started", but I don't know how recently that means.

 

Unless your POI not getting tenured would be an absolute disaster (I admit to not being that educated about what would happen in that situation), I think it's still a lower risk option than B, where funding isn't guaranteed...

 

Ivys are also notorious for not giving tenure to productive professors, and if they wanted to pay someone that much they would try and snipe someone from another school.

 

That being said, If he has passed quals and is on his way to defending, the department should rally around the student and help him finish (and his advisor could to no matter where he goes).

 

We just sniped 2 professors from an Ivy, and all their third and fourth year students are in residence at my school, but will go back and defend at their original school and get the degree from there as well.  

[TakeruK]

I'd go with the first option if the only concern you have with School A is the untenured supervisor. 

 

At my current program (a top 5 program), the department chair clearly states that they only hire people they intend to grant tenure to. So, it's not always true that "top schools are notorious for not granting tenure". Perhaps you can look into the tenure history of this particular school/program/department? Also, the tenure process is 5-7 years, and you might actually finish before the tenure decision is made and/or be within a year of graduation that it does not matter. 

 

I think you might run the risk that the top school prof leaves the school but it's rare that a top school would make a terrible hiring decision and hire a dud. But my experience may be biased!

[lost_15]

Hi all,

 

Thank you so much for responding! I appreciate everyone's suggestions.

 

SA_Hopeful, MathCat, and GeoDUDE!, yes, an untenured POI is indeed one of my concerns. I am admitted to work with this specific faculty member, and I can't change, because he is (and will continue to be) the only one in the department in my specific field. He started in Fall 2013, and I will be his first Ph.D. student if I choose to go. The department just denied tenure for an assistant professor last year and that faculty member had to leave. As far as I know, the requirement for getting tenure is two books. My POI at school A has no books yet.

 

GeoDUDE!, thanks a lot for the information on students of professors who were denied tenure from Ivy schools. This is very helpful!

[GeoDUDE!]

GeoDUDE!, thanks a lot for the information on students of professors who were denied tenure from Ivy schools. This is very helpful!

 

 

I think its very fair for you to discuss this with your new POI and Dept chair, and try and figure out how the department handles these situations, fwiw. 

[lost_15]

TakeruK, thanks for the suggestions, an untenured POI is indeed one of my concerns, but I'm also worried about how much support I could get from POI at school A when I'm in the job market since I will be his first Ph.D. student. Do you have any thoughts on this? Thanks in advance.

[lost_15]

I think its very fair for you to discuss this with your new POI and Dept chair, and try and figure out how the department handles these situations, fwiw. 

 

Really? I wasn't sure this is something I could bring up...

[GeoDUDE!]

Really? I wasn't sure this is something I could bring up...

 

I think you have to do it tastefully, but It is a valid concern, and you need to know how the department supports its students. 

 

Frankly, you have to be honest and candid with your department/advisor if you want to succeed in graduate school regardless. 

Edited March 18, 2015 by GeoDUDE!

[lost_15]

Frankly, you have to be honest and candid with your department/advisor if you want to succeed in graduate school regardless. 

 

This is very valuable advice for me! Thank you!!

[Eigen]

I started with an untenured professor, about two years in. Since one of my worries was what would happen if I didn't get tenure, I asked both him and the department chair.

 

In my case, the chair told me they don't hire people unless they plan on giving them support and tenure, and that the department would support me even if something happened and tenure wasn't granted.

[lost_15]

I started with an untenured professor, about two years in. Since one of my worries was what would happen if I didn't get tenure, I asked both him and the department chair.

 

In my case, the chair told me they don't hire people unless they plan on giving them support and tenure, and that the department would support me even if something happened and tenure wasn't granted.

 

That's good to know. I'll ask mine, too. Thanks!

[TakeruK]

Just want to also say that my advisor is an untenured professor and I started when they were about 2 years in too. 

 

At a top 5 program, your advisor is likely a superstar. Even though they are new, they are probably well known enough that a LOR from them 5-7 years down the line will be worth something. Of course, you can check this to confirm. Not sure about your field, but in mine, our national academic society grants annual awards to top young scientists (usually within 5 years of their PhD). Has your prospective advisor won these awards? Nominated? These are all signs that the field as a whole recognizes that they are a rising superstar and this will carry weight later on.

 

In addition, I would recommend you pick your committee wisely. Because my advisor is untenured and my second project is also with another new professor, I tried to seek a balance of experience on my committee. I sought out a couple of committee members because they were more established in the field. That way, I hope to get the best of both worlds! In my field/program, younger professors have a ton of ideas for new projects and a ton of startup grant money (we're not a lab field) so they send you to a lot of conferences, while older professors have the wisdom and experience and are more established in their fields. It's too early to worry about a committee yet, but if you are concerned that a younger untenured professor cannot provide a certain type of mentorship/advice to you, then when you do form a committee, seek out older professors that can fill that gap. The way I see it, I built my committee as a team to develop/train/mentor me to be able to best reach my goals!

[lost_15]

 

Just want to also say that my advisor is an untenured professor and I started when they were about 2 years in too. 

 

At a top 5 program, your advisor is likely a superstar. Even though they are new, they are probably well known enough that a LOR from them 5-7 years down the line will be worth something. Of course, you can check this to confirm. Not sure about your field, but in mine, our national academic society grants annual awards to top young scientists (usually within 5 years of their PhD). Has your prospective advisor won these awards? Nominated? These are all signs that the field as a whole recognizes that they are a rising superstar and this will carry weight later on.

 

In addition, I would recommend you pick your committee wisely. Because my advisor is untenured and my second project is also with another new professor, I tried to seek a balance of experience on my committee. I sought out a couple of committee members because they were more established in the field. That way, I hope to get the best of both worlds! In my field/program, younger professors have a ton of ideas for new projects and a ton of startup grant money (we're not a lab field) so they send you to a lot of conferences, while older professors have the wisdom and experience and are more established in their fields. It's too early to worry about a committee yet, but if you are concerned that a younger untenured professor cannot provide a certain type of mentorship/advice to you, then when you do form a committee, seek out older professors that can fill that gap. The way I see it, I built my committee as a team to develop/train/mentor me to be able to best reach my goals!

 

TakeruK, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences! This helps tremendously!! I am very grateful.

 

[rising_star]

Definitely ask about the untenured prof. But, I think people blow that kind of thing up into something bigger than it is. Profs leave schools all the time for various reasons, including those with tenure. My PhD advisor moved to my PhD university as a full prof, stayed there for I think 6 years, then went to another school as a full prof. In each move, he took care of his PhD students, either working with them to complete their degree, bringing them along, or arranging for someone else to be the new advisor. So sure, not getting tenure can cause a serious issue. But even with tenure you can't guarantee a prof won't leave during the 4-7 years of your degree.

 

I would go with the better funding and higher ranked program. If worse comes to worse and the young POI leaves, you can transfer to School B. But that is almost a worst case scenario.

[lost_15]

Thank you, rising_star! It's great to know that students are taken care of when professors move!

[rising_star]

Well, they aren't always taken care of. My experience is that they aren't taken care of when the professor is leaving for tenure denial reasons. In that case though, you usually have a year (or more) to find a new advisor or a new institution so you can land on your feet. Those that want to make it work do and those that don't struggle.

[lost_15]

Well, they aren't always taken care of. My experience is that they aren't taken care of when the professor is leaving for tenure denial reasons. In that case though, you usually have a year (or more) to find a new advisor or a new institution so you can land on your feet. Those that want to make it work do and those that don't struggle.

 

Now I understand what you meant by "worse comes to worse" in your first post. Thanks for clarifying!

[juilletmercredi]

I posted about this in a different thread more extensively, but I worked with an untenured assistant professor who was beginning his 3rd year when I started the program. He got tenure the same year that I defended and finished (tenure process at Grad University is long). Even if he had been denied tenure, I would've been finished before he left, so it wouldn't have impacted me.

 

That said, what you can do is form relationships and collaborations with more senior, established people in your department (even if their research interests are only tangential to yours - you'll be surprised at how much they evolve over time). This will not only help you finish in the even that your advisor leaves, but can also help you with the network you need when on the job market. But TakeruK is right - if this is an elite institution, your untenured POI might already be well-known in the field even as a junior person and will just continue to build relationships and a reputation.