Confronting a PI about a rotation grade

[LawnOrnament]

My second lab rotation went a little wonky. I chose to rotate in the lab because I had heard the PI speak a few times and was interested, and then found out she was recently funded a large grant. The first month went great and I thought the lab was a serious prospect for me. Then things started to degrade: some of my experiments didn't work, the post-doc I was working under started to really bug me (micromanagement), and one time when I was put on the spot, I fumbled an explanation of my project. However, I put a ton of work into the lab, and then PI read an approved the required rotation report I wrote a the end.

 

During the final week, feeling like things were a little weird, I asked the PI if we could sit down and debrief from it all. I specifically asked for feedback on what I could have done better. We did sit and talk, but the conversation gravitated towards a broader discussion on what a PhD requires, and I never got any real feedback. She even dismissed some of the technical mistakes I made, and said the doors were open if I wanted to join the lab.

 

Now, a few weeks later, I check my grades and see that I got a B in the rotation (the lowest grade we are allowed to get). I think it's pretty clear the lab isn't the best fit for me, however I still want feedback. Without it, I feel like the whole system is rather subjective and unaccountable and I will probably always begrudge that.

 

I'm currently doing my third rotation in a lab I will likely join, however, I want closure (and to preserve the 2nd lab as a backup option). Is it worth asking the PI again for feedback, or should I just let it go?

[TakeruK]

Unless you think the PI did something dishonest, I would just let it go. And even if you thought the grade was not fairly awarded, unless you need it corrected for some other reason, I would just let it go. I understand that the lack of feedback is a big downside of academia but it happens at all levels. The feedback we get for admission decisions, funding decisions, grading decisions, quals/comps exam decisions can be very minimal. I think it is an important skill for academics to learn from experiences independently, without feedback from our advisors. I think it's also important for us to develop the ability to "not sweat the small stuff", so to speak.

 

However, since a B is the lowest passing grade, this means you still passed. Since the prof said that the doors are open if you want to join the lab, if you do want to join this lab, then you should definitely talk to the professor further. Don't mention the B or ask about why the grade was a B, just ask about future opportunities in this lab.

[LawnOrnament]

TakeruK, thank you for this very interesting and ultimately useful response. Admittedly, I have struggled at times to understand the culture of academia (my previous lab experience comes from industry). This bit about lack of feedback at all levels would have never occurred to me. I still feel it's a shame - at my level at least, feedback would both help the student to be guided better and the PI to better articulate their expectations - but alas, I am not about to go on a crusade to change the culture of academia.

[St Andrews Lynx]

Grading for something like lab rotation performance is going to be really subjective and will probably vary from advisor to advisor. For some PIs, unless your dedication and skills completely blew them out of the water, they're going to give you "B" grades and that just means "Was OK. No major problems." My guess is that most academics only think for 0.5 seconds about grading something so trivial (for them). 

 

I've worked in industry, and the feedback procedure has always been very formalised. My supervisor/line manager drafted up a Personal Development Plan when I arrived with definitive goals & milestones. We had a mid-year review and then the final formal review which explained in detail whether I met each of the goals and the supervisor indicated their level of satisfaction with my demonstrated skills. 

 

There's almost none of that in academia. Even the rare PIs that do help you draft a list of goals rarely act in such a thorough manner. You're either 'doing fine', 'could be doing better' or 'struggling'. Most academics haven't worked in industry so don't understand the PDP culture and can't really articulate detailed the type of feedback you want. 

 

As far as your backup lab goes. Don't talk about the grade. Don't bitch about the grade to others. Be polite to the professor whenever you see them. Continue to attend their group meetings/seminars/etc if you're still interested in them. With time you'll watch how others do things, you'll talk to other students if you need advice, you'll learn new things and you'll figure out how to improve yourself in the context of academic research.

[LawnOrnament]

More solid advice, and I appreciate the industry perspective, St. Andrews Lynx.

 

A friend to whom I vented about this has compared this situation to when you get dumped and reeeally want to know why, feel like the other person owes you an explanation, etc. But the other person just doesn't really care or just wasn't into it, and ya just gotta save your pride and get over it. I'm working on it :/

[Tall Chai Latte]

Your second rotation sounds just like one of my rotations. I also rotated with a PI who had really high expectations, who had really high expectations (e. g. experiments need to work no more than two tries, need to be super energetic) for rotation students. I wasn't meeting her standards of being 'interested' in her lab, and she gave me the lowest grade (and ratings in all five categories on the evaluations) for the rotations. The rotation was short and I worked seven days a week, and still got a horrible review and 'it's up to you whether you want to complete this rotation. I don't think my perspective will change". This had huge impact on my later rotation searches; I guess people didn't wanna deal with a potential problem child!

Rotation periods are tough because you are politically not protected by anyone. If your second rotation eval doesn't affect your prospect on finding a permanent lab home, I'd say just let it go and move on. You might run into them some day, you might have to collaborate with them on your projects or borrow equipments/reagents etc. Just be courteous on this, smile and move on. Sometimes people just don't work well together, may it be personality or work ethics. Just like me and my ex-rotation advisor, she's a big extrovert and I'm an introvert. I guess she had a hard time reading me and interpreted things the wrong way.

[Eigen]

Compared to Tall Chai Latte, I don't think your PI thought the rotation didn't work out- she wouldn't have asked you to work in the lab if she didn't. 

 

As mentioned, different PI's take different approaches to grading- I've had a lot that take the "it's perfect, or it's not" approach. Perfection gets an A, everything else gets something slightly lower. They aren't trying to communicate that you did badly, most don't expect high grades, or let lower grades effect their judgement of you. They consider it worth their time and your time to hold you to high standards and push to develop you as a colleague. 

 

From my read of your situation, this is more descriptive of what happened to you, rather than TCL. 

[lyrehc]

FWIW, one of my committee members constantly tells me that grades don't matter at the doctoral level. While I don't 100% agree with her, I also know that it is common to get a B and it isn't looked at negatively by the department or university. 

The question is, do you want to work in the lab? If you liked it don't let the B scare you away. Sometimes the most demanding of graders can teach us the most in our disciplines.

[TakeruK]

One of the grad classes I took had one prof who graded individual problems in a homework set as 10/10 (correct) or 0/10 (not correct). I think this grading method did teach us some useful concepts/lessons for academia. For example, in some cases (e.g. getting a paper out before your competitors), the only thing that matters is whether or not you achieve your goal in the end, not how hard you tried to get there (or what mistakes you might make along the way). 

 

Personally, I don't think this is the best grading method, but since grades in grad school do not really matter, it was not a big deal. The unimportance of grades in grad school allows for different approaches to grading and instruction (as well as different strategies on learning the material), which, overall, I find positive and refreshing. For example, few of my classes have closed-book exams where we have to cram useless materials--instead, we work on projects that are related to our own research and the reduced emphasis on grades means that we have flexibility to prioritize our research over classes etc.