NEED SOME MAJOR HELP WITH RESEARCH PAPER WRITING

[Francophile1]

So, I spent the better half of my MA program struggling with research papers, from the hardest professors I usually got B's. I asked for comments and tried my hardest to incorporate their ideas and words of advice, researched on my own how grad papers need to be written, but I still find myself getting B's in some of these classes. If I am ever going to go to a PhD program I need to master this skill but how? What would be your advice? I'm sure there are people here who have struggled with this.

I just see such a real gap between undergrad and grad levels. My major was foreign languages and so significant time was devoted to the language and not paper writing per-se. Now there is this gap that I am trying to fill. Any help is appreciated.

If you know of any workshops etc...I would also welcome that

[rising_star]

The first thing that comes to mind is reading more academic papers. The more academic work you read, the better able to mimic their style, tone, ways of argumentation, etc. The second is that you might want to consider forming or joining a writing group where you can exchange writing with peers and get feedback more informally. Seeing how others write can also help you see weaknesses in your own writing. 

[unræd]

Are there commonalities to the things your professors are identifying? If so, are they more issues with the nitty-gritty mechanics of your writing, or broader things having more to do with what sort of argument you're making, and how you're making it? Either way, rising_star's advice is really excellent. Exchanging works-in-progress with colleagues is, sure, often a humbling experience, but it's also a little thrilling--I've found it really helpful!

 

I would also, though, ask if in these papers you're researching topics that interest you? That's certainly an issue I've had in writing research papers. It can be extraordinarily difficult to come up with interesting, compelling, argumentative theses for things you don't care about, and it's even harder to then fill the twenty-five pages of that seminar paper with trenchant argument when you could really just sum up your thoughts with "meh." Yes, there are writers out there who are talented enough to be able keep you wanting to turn the page (which is still what a good piece of academic writing should do) while forcefully arguing for something they don't care one whit about; I know I'm not one of them.

[xolo]

Hi Francophile1, I have the same problem.

 

Even now, when I look at my classes for next year I wonder how come I'm doing all these research oriented digressions from the language. (Like statistics, for instance).  

 

Can you take a class in writing for the humanities or something like that? 

 

Do you have a mentor that can review your paper as you progress it?

[dr. t]

I'm going to go full grammar Nazi for a second. I know this is an informal setting. Bear with me.

 

So, I spent the better half of my MA program struggling with research papers,. [two separate thoughts] Ffrom the hardest professors, I usually got B's. [apostrophe is used for the possessive, not the plural] I asked for comments and tried my hardest to incorporate their ideas and words of advice, and [comma usage is stylistic (I would not use it here), but you need a conjunction] researched on my own how grad papers need to be written, but I still find myself getting B's [see above] in some of these classes. If I am ever going to go to a PhD program I need to master this skill, but how? What would be your advice? I'm sure there are people here who have struggled with this.

[the next two sentences logically follow the sentence which ends '...these classes', and are awkward in their current position]

I just see such a real gap between undergrad and grad levels. My major was foreign languages and so significant time was devoted to the language and not paper writing per se. [a Latin term, two words, no hyphen] Now, there is this gap that I am trying to fill. Any help is appreciated. [because your structure is disorganized, you had to repeat this request, which is also awkward] If you know of any workshops, etc... [what is the ellipsis for? 'etc.' stands  for 'et cetera' (and the rest), and therefore is preceded by a comma] I would also welcome that. [punctuation, proper capitalization, etc.]

 

If this short sample is indicative of your general approach towards writing - and I suspect it is* - you're sloppy. Your mistakes are technical and structural; I've highlighted both sorts above. In my experience, the latter tends to stem from not thinking through how you're going to say what you want to say, while the former comes from either laziness or ignorance.

 

Good academic prose is concise, structured, and grammatically sound. It is also the product of a great deal of deliberate practice. That is, in order to write good academic prose, you need to practice writing good academic prose. Fortunately, you don't need to wait for your next paper to start working. We live in an age centered around the written (or at least typed) word. This world offers all sorts of opportunities for practice, and forum posts like this one are one of the many ways you can improve your writing.

 

If you really want to get better, you should do the following whenever you write something, whether for a professor or for WordPress:

• Stop and think: what am I trying to say and what is the best way to say it?
• Pay careful attention to grammar, looking up the proper usage of a construction (or a word!) if you're unsure.
• Re-read what you've written before posting. Proofreading is a pain for a long paper (I'm terrible at it), but it's easy for a paragraph on a forum. Make sure your grammar is good and your train of thought isn't skipping back and forth.

This is really tedious, at least at first. You're re-training yourself to think of writing differently. The payoffs are, however, rather large. All of the professors who have supervised me have emphasized the importance of this sort of structure and precision for work done in class and as a method by which they evaluate journal articles. As one bluntly put it, "A disorganized and careless paper is the product of a disorganized and careless mind." 

 

 

*We can go into my own experiences of the overlap between forum writing styles and writing ability some other time. If this is totally off base and OP's problem is argumentative, he or she needs a writing tutor, not an online forum.

Edited July 5, 2015 by telkanuru

[ExponentialDecay]

Is it just me, or is a person who is getting mostly Bs at the graduate level because they struggle with, arguably, the most important skill that a literary scholar has a little premature in thinking about PhD programs?

Edited July 5, 2015 by ExponentialDecay

[Francophile1]

I'm going to go full grammar Nazi for a second. I know this is an informal setting. Bear with me.

 

 

If this short sample is indicative of your general approach towards writing - and I suspect it is* - you're sloppy. Your mistakes are technical and structural; I've highlighted both sorts above. In my experience, the latter tends to stem from not thinking through how you're going to say what you want to say, while the former comes from either laziness or ignorance.

 

Good academic prose is concise, structured, and grammatically sound. It is also the product of a great deal of deliberate practice. That is, in order to write good academic prose, you need to practice writing good academic prose. Fortunately, you don't need to wait for your next paper to start working. We live in an age centered around the written (or at least typed) word. This world offers all sorts of opportunities for practice, and forum posts like this one are one of the many ways you can improve your writing.

 

If you really want to get better, you should do the following whenever you write something, whether for a professor or for WordPress:

• Stop and think: what am I trying to say and what is the best way to say it?
• Pay careful attention to grammar, looking up the proper usage of a construction (or a word!) if you're unsure.
• Re-read what you've written before posting. Proofreading is a pain for a long paper (I'm terrible at it), but it's easy for a paragraph on a forum. Make sure your grammar is good and your train of thought isn't skipping back and forth.

This is really tedious, at least at first. You're re-training yourself to think of writing differently. The payoffs are, however, rather large. All of the professors who have supervised me have emphasized the importance of this sort of structure and precision for work done in class and as a method by which they evaluate journal articles. As one bluntly put it, "A disorganized and careless paper is the product of a disorganized and careless mind." 

 

 

*We can go into my own experiences of the overlap between forum writing styles and writing ability some other time. If this is totally off base and OP's problem is argumentative, he or she needs a writing tutor, not an online forum.

This comment just makes me laugh as I was not writing this question to have someone correct my grammar. This is not a sample of my work. I don't know who you are or what kind of education you have but any normal person should have figured that much! I don't need anyone to tell me how to write emails or short paragraphs that ask for advice. If you cannot provide advice about my question, then just don't reply. Lol let me guess you will attempt to analyze these sentences as well. Guess what? Of course I do not edit my writing here!

[Francophile1]

Is it just me, or is a person who is getting mostly Bs at the graduate level because they struggle with, arguably, the most important skill that a literary scholar has a little premature in thinking about PhD programs?

Again an example of someone who does not even try to offer advice

[dr. t]

This comment just makes me laugh as I was not writing this question to have someone correct my grammar. This is not a sample of my work. I don't know who you are or what kind of education you have but any normal person should have figured that much! I don't need anyone to tell me how to write emails or short paragraphs that ask for advice. If you cannot provide advice about my question, then just don't reply. Lol let me guess you will attempt to analyze these sentences as well. Guess what? Of course I do not edit my writing here!

 

 The best of luck in your future endeavors. 

[Francophile1]

Are there commonalities to the things your professors are identifying? If so, are they more issues with the nitty-gritty mechanics of your writing, or broader things having more to do with what sort of argument you're making, and how you're making it? Either way, rising_star's advice is really excellent. Exchanging works-in-progress with colleagues is, sure, often a humbling experience, but it's also a little thrilling--I've found it really helpful!

 

I would also, though, ask if in these papers you're researching topics that interest you? That's certainly an issue I've had in writing research papers. It can be extraordinarily difficult to come up with interesting, compelling, argumentative theses for things you don't care about, and it's even harder to then fill the twenty-five pages of that seminar paper with trenchant argument when you could really just sum up your thoughts with "meh." Yes, there are writers out there who are talented enough to be able keep you wanting to turn the page (which is still what a good piece of academic writing should do) while forcefully arguing for something they don't care one whit about; I know I'm not one of them.

Thanks for your reply. It seems the most helpful! Yes my main issue seems to be about not making strong enough arguments and every time I try to research how to do this, I think I did better yet the result is not excellent. The argument is not deep enough and although I present interesting ideas they are not developed enough for the PhD level. I need that push from ideas to strong arguments

[unræd]

Both ExponentialDecay and telkanuru did offer you advice, though. To telkanuru, you said you "don't need anyone to tell me how to write emails or short paragraphs that ask for advice," but that's not really what he was doing. While he used your initial post as an object lesson, he was telling you how to write, period, including academic prose. His bulleted list is excellent, constructive, and frankly very sympathetic (note how careful he was to talk about advice he's gotten and issues he's had) counsel. Red is never fun to see, but red makes us better scholars.

 

The reason I asked about finding topics you're interested in actually relates to ExponentialDecay's point, which, while you found unhelpful, is something to consider. I was trying to be a bit more roundabout, but the broader question of why it is you want to do a PhD program and the question of why your papers' arguments fall flat at that level could be, in some ways, the same question. I know you've had other people here, as you've been through the first year of your program and considered a wide range of future disciplines and specialties, tell you that maybe you're too unfocused for graduate study; I'm not going to say that, because it doesn't matter what I think and it's not the question you asked.

 

But this is why I first brought up whether or not you're researching things that really and truly interest you: the more you have a clear idea of what it is you want to study, why it is it needs to be studied, and why you need to be the person to study it, the better you'll be at producing strong arguments about it.

Edited July 5, 2015 by unræd

[ExponentialDecay]

My advice is, just don't do it. I don't know if you need a job, I don't know if you need funding, but you don't need a PhD. 2 years of B grades in an MA program makes you uncompetitive for virtually any PhD program. Frankly, even, your grades aren't even the deciding factor; that you are unable to, for whatever reason, construct an A-grade essay after 18 years of education is the kiss of death. You should be able to do this consistently come undergrad.

Maybe you will be a great high school teacher or novelist or whatever you want to be. Maybe you will continue to enjoy writing essays. But professional scholarship is not for you.

Edited July 5, 2015 by ExponentialDecay

[knp]

How many full drafts are you doing per paper? However many you manage to get through normally, I'd budget time for at least another two more (another three or four might be ideal). If the issue is more macro with what you're studying, as others have suggested, this won't be helpful, but trying them out will give you more information about whether it really is a narrow writing problem or a bigger mismatch between you and what you're studying. Doing more drafts with a hypercritical eye—aided by others' past comments, any writing resources available to you on campus, and at least three days between some of your drafts—is basically the stuff of a self-run writing bootcamp.

 

Another suggestion: have you received any As on long, graduate level essays? In general, I've found that I can see a huge difference between graduate level A- and B-work in my own writing. (Caveat that I only have an undergraduate degree, but I'm speaking from some grad-seminar experience). Try to apply what worked in the better essays to the worse ones. Since it's the summer, improving your own past efforts might help.

 

Read a lot more academic essays, too. What works about them? How do they use evidence? Make outlines of their arguments and how they develop through the essays. Model your work on your favorites.

[VirtualMessage]

Francophile, I'm unsure why your post has elicited some of these asinine responses (exponentialdecay wins first place with telkanuru coming in a close second). I suspect the usual mix of insecurity and pedantry endemic to academia. What they're unable to admit is that any good writer struggles with the problems you've outlined; however, many graduate students fail to acknowledge the problems in the first place. Successful essays are a struggle and a long journey comprised of obstacles, discoveries, sorrows, and joys. Good essays undergo countless major revisions, and they usually have many readers before they ever reach an editor. This has certainly been my experience with publication. The fact that you care about your prose already contradicts any notion that you're a sloppy writer. You want to develop your craft, and that's far more ambitious than most of the graduate writing I've read. You're asking the right questions, and you might want to check out Cook's Line by Line. I've also found it's helpful to identify an academic writer whose prose you admire. Emulation can be a useful step in the difficult work of discovering your own style and voice. 

[rising_star]

My advice is, just don't do it. I don't know if you need a job, I don't know if you need funding, but you don't need a PhD. 2 years of B grades in an MA program makes you uncompetitive for virtually any PhD program. Frankly, even, your grades aren't even the deciding factor; that you are unable to, for whatever reason, construct an A-grade essay after 18 years of education is the kiss of death. You should be able to do this consistently come undergrad.

Maybe you will be a great high school teacher or novelist or whatever you want to be. Maybe you will continue to enjoy writing essays. But professional scholarship is not for you.

 

This is, quite frankly, an incredibly rude and condescending response. You have zero clue about the OP's academic background prior to the MA but are asserting that the OP has never been able to write an A-grade essay in their academic life (18 years of education as you put it). I earned maybe 2-3 As total on papers as an undergraduate and still somehow (likely as a shock to folks like you, ExponentialDecay) successfully completed both a master's and a PhD with full funding for both programs. One can improve on their writing with time, practice, and critical feedback from others. Why not simply provide the OP with useful resources rather than tell them they'll never be able to produce professional scholarship? OP, pay the doubters/haters no attention. I had a professor who gave me advice like ExponentialDecay's when I was an undergraduate. Had I listened to them, I would've dropped out of college and never become the teacher and researcher I am today.

 

2 years of B grades in a MA program are not great. However, you can still improve, Francophile1. If the issue is that your arguments aren't strong enough, see if you can go to office hours and have a professor explain to you what else they're looking for. Is it that your argument itself isn't making sense or that you aren't providing sufficient supporting evidence for your thesis? I find that the latter is very common, as there's a tendency to tell, rather than show, the reader what you want them to know. If this is the case, you may want to add more quotations or examples from the text to bolster your argument. Another possibility is that they're saying your arguments aren't strong enough as a way of saying that your arguments need to be more nuanced. Are you arguing broad or narrow points in your papers? Sometimes it can be difficult to argue an extremely narrow, specific point so we go broader, which then leads to a weaker argument overall. You'll want to be careful not to do this.

 

Working--and exchanging papers--with your classmates could help you with this as they'll be familiar with the literature and theories you're drawing on in your papers. If you can, Francophile1, find a partner or a couple of people who you can share drafts with and get feedback from. As knp and VirtualMessage have said, writing is a process full of revision and you'll want to go through multiple drafts before submitting a paper. For example, I went through 8 rounds of revisions of my most recent draft manuscript before getting feedback on it from one of my peers. It was only after incorporating that feedback and reading it through another time that I then sent the manuscript in. Tedious? Yes. But I wanted to make sure it was the best writing I could submit to increase the likelihood of it getting published.

 

Francophile, I'm unsure why your post has elicited some of these asinine responses (exponentialdecay wins first place with telkanuru coming in a close second). I suspect the usual mix of insecurity and pedantry endemic to academia. What they're unable to admit is that any good writer struggles with the problems you've outlined; however, many graduate students fail to acknowledge the problems in the first place. Successful essays are a struggle and a long journey comprised of obstacles, discoveries, sorrows, and joys. Good essays undergo countless major revisions, and they usually have many readers before they ever reach an editor. This has certainly been my experience with publication. The fact that you care about your prose already contradicts any notion that you're a sloppy writer. You want to develop your craft, and that's far more ambitious than most of the graduate writing I've read. You're asking the right questions, and you might want to check out Cook's Line by Line. I've also found it's helpful to identify an academic writer whose prose you admire. Emulation can be a useful step in the difficult work of discovering your own style and voice. 

There's some excellent advice here. For class papers, think of the professor as the editor if you're following what VirtualMessage says. You'll want to go through several full drafts and revisions, get feedback from peers or the Writing Center, and revise again before you submit your paper. This means starting early on your papers (4-6 weeks before they're due if possible) and putting some serious time and effort into both the research and the writing. It is doable!

[dr. t]

 I had a professor who gave me advice like ExponentialDecay's when I was an undergraduate. Had I listened to them, I would've dropped out of college and never become the teacher and researcher I am today.

 

If the plural of anecdote isn't data, the singular sure as hell isn't either. That you've achieved what you have doesn't actually invalidate your professor's advice. It's possible (in fact, likely) that it was the correct advice for many other students in your precise situation. You've managed to rise above it, and that's a credit to you.

 

ED's advice was very blunt, but if you're hitting a wall in the second year of an MA program, the impulse to reevaluate whether or not your academic goals are realistic is a good one. Life is tough.

[Eigen]

This comment just makes me laugh as I was not writing this question to have someone correct my grammar. This is not a sample of my work. I don't know who you are or what kind of education you have but any normal person should have figured that much! I don't need anyone to tell me how to write emails or short paragraphs that ask for advice. If you cannot provide advice about my question, then just don't reply. Lol let me guess you will attempt to analyze these sentences as well. Guess what? Of course I do not edit my writing here!

 

In general, I find people who respond like this to a very well written, thoughtful and helpful post tend to invite more responses in kind. I'm not sure why Telkanuru's message would be considere asinine- it was sympathetically written, and even started acknowledging that it was an informal setting.

[Francophile1]

In general, I find people who respond like this to a very well written, thoughtful and helpful post tend to invite more responses in kind. I'm not sure why Telkanuru's message would be considere asinine- it was sympathetically written, and even started acknowledging that it was an informal setting.

I'm not going to warrant any further responses to this topic since I am quiet busy, but I do not find his/her comments to be helpful at all since I did not ask to correct my blogging grammar. I do not believe it was "sympathetically written", rather it is an arrogant attempt to show one's "intellectualism" or lack thereof.

[Eigen]

I'm not going to warrant any further responses to this topic since I am quiet busy, but I do not find his/her comments to be helpful at all since I did not ask to correct my blogging grammar. I do not believe it was "sympathetically written", rather it is an arrogant attempt to show one's "intellectualism" or lack thereof.

 

Your belief shows through in your post.

 

If you felt it wasn't the direction you needed help with (your original post gives no hint as to what area of writing you're having difficulty with), you could have responded to the last paragraph that suggests that if the problems are indeed not structural, than a writing center would be far more helpful.

 

But instead, you chose to attack both the post and the writer.

[Francophile1]

Your belief shows through in your post.

 

If you felt it wasn't the direction you needed help with (your original post gives no hint as to what area of writing you're having difficulty with), you could have responded to the last paragraph that suggests that if the problems are indeed not structural, than a writing center would be far more helpful.

 

But instead, you chose to attack both the post and the writer.

Yes I will attack a post, if I believe what they are saying does not apply to my question. Obviously in my post I referred to graduate essay writing skills not blogging. I even specifically mentioned PhD level graduate work, so I do not see how you or anyone else might think that what I was asking was to correct my grammar here. If you read my question carefully you will see that I asked about writing workshops, and of course I can go to a writing center just as anyone here posting a question can ask the same question from their advisors, school etc- but they choose to come here to get advice from fellow classmates.

[rising_star]

If the plural of anecdote isn't data, the singular sure as hell isn't either. That you've achieved what you have doesn't actually invalidate your professor's advice. It's possible (in fact, likely) that it was the correct advice for many other students in your precise situation. You've managed to rise above it, and that's a credit to you.

 

ED's advice was very blunt, but if you're hitting a wall in the second year of an MA program, the impulse to reevaluate whether or not your academic goals are realistic is a good one. Life is tough.

Sure, but I was also paying attention to the original post. Francophile1 said they were getting Bs from the hardest professors, not that every paper grade they received was a B (which I think is what you and ExponentialDecay have assumed/concluded). If some grades are Bs and some are As, then Francophile1 sounds, quite frankly, like many master's students I know and went to school with. Making the jump from undergrad writing to grad writing is not automatic for everyone, though it's clear that some people think it is or should be. I think it's great to recognize a weakness and ask for help on how to fix it, which is something that few grad students do even when they need to (perhaps out of fear that they'll be told to just drop out, as some of you are telling Francophile1 to do). I feel like if you don't have anything nice to say, you could just not say anything at all, rather than telling the OP to give up, quit, or become a high school teacher (because obviously HS teaching is for those not capable of being college professors, apparently). 

 

ETA: And, by the way, telkanuru, telling someone to drop out of college in their first semester based on one paper is probably not the right advice for any professor to give. As I progressed through graduate school and now that I actually am a professor, I am horrified that one would ever think it was professional or appropriate to say something like that to a student based on a single data point. And yet, that professor did. I have a feeling that some of those posting here will be exactly that kind of professor, assuming they get a TT job in the future. Why not instead work with the student, try to explain to them why their paper isn't meeting your expectations, and what they might be able to do to improve, rather than telling them to quit immediately? One poor performance shouldn't ruin someone's aspirations, plans, or goals. If one bad paper or test were to ruin one's chance at graduate school, I suspect many of the folks here wouldn't be here at all because they'd never have even been able to consider going to grad school. 

[Eigen]

Sure, but I was also paying attention to the original post. Francophile1 said they were getting Bs from the hardest professors, not that every paper grade they received was a B (which I think is what you and ExponentialDecay have assumed/concluded). If some grades are Bs and some are As, then Francophile1 sounds, quite frankly, like many master's students I know and went to school with. Making the jump from undergrad writing to grad writing is not automatic for everyone, though it's clear that some people think it is or should be. I think it's great to recognize a weakness and ask for help on how to fix it, which is something that few grad students do even when they need to (perhaps out of fear that they'll be told to just drop out, as some of you are telling Francophile1 to do). I feel like if you don't have anything nice to say, you could just not say anything at all, rather than telling the OP to give up, quit, or become a high school teacher (because obviously HS teaching is for those not capable of being college professors, apparently). 

 

ETA: And, by the way, telkanuru, telling someone to drop out of college in their first semester based on one paper is probably not the right advice for any professor to give. As I progressed through graduate school and now that I actually am a professor, I am horrified that one would ever think it was professional or appropriate to say something like that to a student based on a single data point. And yet, that professor did. I have a feeling that some of those posting here will be exactly that kind of professor, assuming they get a TT job in the future. Why not instead work with the student, try to explain to them why their paper isn't meeting your expectations, and what they might be able to do to improve, rather than telling them to quit immediately? One poor performance shouldn't ruin someone's aspirations, plans, or goals. If one bad paper or test were to ruin one's chance at graduate school, I suspect many of the folks here wouldn't be here at all because they'd never have even been able to consider going to grad school. 

 

To be fair, only one person suggested graduate school might not be the right path (ED). It was nowhere in Telkanuru's post.

 

I also don't see anyone suggesting they drop out of their current program, but perhaps I missed something.

[dr. t]

I feel like if you don't have anything nice to say, you could just not say anything at all, rather than telling the OP to give up, quit, or become a high school teacher (because obviously HS teaching is for those not capable of being college professors, apparently). 

 

I agree that the point could have been better put.

 

ETA: And, by the way, telkanuru, telling someone to drop out of college in their first semester based on one paper is probably not the right advice for any professor to give

 

Since we're giving personal stories, I wish one of my professors had given this advice to me after my first semester.

Edited July 5, 2015 by telkanuru

[dr. t]

Obviously in my post I referred to graduate essay writing skills not blogging. I even specifically mentioned PhD level graduate work, so I do not see how you or anyone else might think that what I was asking was to correct my grammar here.

 

I'm starting to think you didn't even read what I wrote.

[Dr. Old Bill]

I'm not going to warrant any further responses to this topic since I am quiet busy, but I do not find his/her comments to be helpful at all since I did not ask to correct my blogging grammar. I do not believe it was "sympathetically written", rather it is an arrogant attempt to show one's "intellectualism" or lack thereof.

 

I wish I could be quiet busy these days...the noisy busy gets a little cumbersome at times.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Wyatt's Torch