Fall 2017 MFA

[auroras]

Hi, Draft and Gradcafe lurker here, with much gratitude for those who have kept this thread alive in the past couple months.  It's definitely been a safe harbor from Draft.  

I agree with several of the points being made about Draft, but I also think there is much to learn from it if you take a step back and evaluate the tumult of information.  For instance-- yes, while it did seem like a few people were getting into numerous top programs, the truth is that no one was admitted into every program.  Even the most successful applicants (Michener acceptances, Iowa, etc) were rejected from other top programs.  I think that is actually evidence of some aesthetic diversity, or at least indication of a desire on the part of admissions committees to cultivate that diversity.  I myself was accepted into one fully-funded program and have been rejected by several other top programs.  My work is quite polarizing so I sort of expected the rejections, and am very grateful for the program that did take a chance on me.  When I went for an on-campus visit, I was impressed by the range of work being workshopped and expressed that to a professor.  She told me that this was an explicit goal of the committee: they didn't want to be a training ground for a certain kind of work and actively tried to put together a cohort where students would be distinct from one another and could learn from each other.    

More so than a specific aesthetic, what set apart the multiple-acceptance crew seems to have been really, really polished work.  Many of those who were accepted had either extensively workshopped their work before, or revised multiple times before getting published in great journals.   Quite a few seem to have been mentored by celebrated writers in undergrad or beyond.  I think that right there is the magic ingredient in MFA admissions: having run your work through some prior gauntlet.   I was privileged to attend a workshop last summer with some incredible poets, and I don't think I would have been accepted without that experience.  It taught me how others would respond to my work, and what I needed to work on.  I still don't think my work was as polished as it could have been, but no doubt the workshop made a huge difference. 

For all the downsides of Draft-- and it was straight-up terrible for me at a certain point and I had to quit-- I think there are a lot of sincere people on there trying to do their best to muddle through this very trying process.  It is lovely to see people congratulating others on acceptances, even after themselves receiving bad news or being in limbo.  You have to take what you can, but I do feel I learned more about the MFA admissions process, and by extension, perhaps something about the landscape of creative writing in general.  

Edited to add: my post is largely in response to the question raised by @oc.bmjc 

Edited March 15, 2017 by auroras

[ficpic89]

UVA acceptance up...

Edited March 15, 2017 by ficpic89

[oc.bmjc]

@Three21 @auroras @aridari Full disclosure, I'm 25 and this is the first time I've ever been on a blog platform like this that's not Reddit. I  am/was v. impressed with the update notification gradcafe _nice-work_. Yes, those are excellent, sobering points and absolutely true. In response, I want to make sure it's clear my interpretation of Draft is solely my own and emotionally based. It just didn't work for me in terms of my growth, but that doesn't mean it didn't provide me an opportunity to connect and learn from others nor does it mean the group doesn't benefit others. I personally learned more from reading over current students cross genre work in programs I applied to and how next year that may affect my application and sample. Yet, I think its imperative to point out and speak about the lack of awareness and/or tolerated bad behavior that can be harmful in Draft.  I didn't call to it specifically in my first post, so I apologize for the post reading as dismissive or even hateful as it totally sounds of cynicism wrapped in resentment baked in belittlement.

However with that being said, writer friends of mine (in far less privileged positions than most) and I had similar reactions, which I didn't articulate as clearly in my original post, so I don't think the criticism should be taken with a grain of salt either.  I want to emphasize that it's certainly not all of the people in the group (which most absolutely do their best to maintain some civility, professionalism and encouragement). My critique is ultimately that of the dynamic and mechanics of a space that benefits directly from showmanship and promotes dialogues which prop up certain improper or misunderstood standards of what is and isn't seen as good or desired upon submission.

I.e. One of my writer friends who is disabled unjoined the group last year because he was so deeply offended by the group's handling/wash over of criticism on MFA programs, funding and the institution with regards to it's protections on marginalized groups. He ended up withdrawing his applications that year entirely and seriously questioned whether or not MFA culture is the place for him. In my mind, this goes beyond pride or hurt feelings or seeing other people being performative on Facebook or shrugging it off as social media. That's deeply upsetting to me and should be to other writers too, because while it's not in my interest to limit how and in which way writers interact, it is my intent to call out the allowance of certain behaviors in a community that may be ultimately demeaning, superficial, or reinforce and remind other less advantaged writers of the great institutional barriers they have to overcome. To me, the mode of Draft does set an important standard, tone and personality for the perceived culture of writing now, and especially for writers who are interacting with their prospective peers at such a vulnerable time. 

But truly, my larger point was this: For my friend, me and others, the perception of Draft was that many of the vocal individuals in the group were also the individuals getting accepted. Said vocal individuals, being as the were, made it known to everyone else that they have the time, space, undergrad pedigree, resources and published work to back the acceptance.  Given my friend's history, he is not a writer who had the opportunity to workshop or work with great faculty at a great undergrad leaving him feeling severely disadvantaged and discouraged. In his attempts to connect independently or gain insight with the group in a way that could speak to his circumstance, he was met with pleasantries and gestures that more or less indicated to him that his experience and talent didn't/couldn't amount to the "pinned post" standard. I, on the other hand walked away feeling a bit annoyed and confused because of a few celebritized facebook extroverts, and found other resources to be more helpful.  So yes, it's totally unfair to critique the behavior of the whole group when it's really only done by a select few in each case of myself and my friend. But, I am only eager to advocate for more constructive uses of the space because it is representative of the upcoming generations of people and perceptions aligned with the MFA program, and it does have a big impact on aspiring writers, like my friend. It's absolutely true that for every erk worthy post there are at least 100 lovely, talented people happy to support and help to the best of their ability. So I beg the question of how that ideal of support and understanding is ultimately represented by the curation/structure of the group and what's actually discussed/ prioritized on a meaningful level among its members, and how that ultimately translates into programs.

Auroras: It's encouraging to know the committees in your experience are much different, and I am glad you found a program that you love. Thank you for your insight. Do you have any advise on revision processes that may be accessible to individuals who lack time, social network, or resources to try and emulate this experience?






 

Edited March 15, 2017 by oc.bmjc

[ficpic89]

Someone on Draft posted a UVA fiction acceptance. Sigh. (Happy for the applicant, though)

Edited March 15, 2017 by ficpic89

[romola]

Oh wow! I tried to check my UVA status (because why not?), but the applyyourself system seems to be down. I guess the ides of March is a big day for online applications.

 

Good luck, everyone.

 

ETA: applyyourself seems to be back up.

Edited March 15, 2017 by romola

[tonydoesmovie]

@oc.bmjc I was going to "quote" your response, but having it's length repeated in this forum would be an abusive use of the quote, IMO.

I am very much of your thinking (as far as I can tell). There is a bit of "do I belong with these people?" when you see the portrayed caliber of Draft folks. And this is me, a straight, white, cis male feeling excluded. I can only imagine how others from minority and marginalized groups feel. Furthermore, as a person lacking diversity, I wondered if my "majority" status would put my applications in jeopardy, however, I came to the realization that it is the quality of work above all else, not the writer themselves behind the pen.

I'm working on a piece I'd like to submit to something like MFA Years to reach out to those people, like your friend, because I, too, don't have any undergrad pedigree. I attended a local state school and graduated with a degree in film (more or less). I don't have any published work. And, I only found out about creative writing MFA's around Jan/Feb of 2016, only starting to research and take the idea seriously by summer and beginning to actually write and bring to life ideas that'd been dancing in my head around October.

In that time, I looked for information to help guide me, but what was there? Endless material about how to organize publications on your CV (of which I had no CV), which fully-funded program was right for your novel (of which I had no novel), and forums and blogs about people that'd been accepted to schools who had been writing since they were in utero, sold a book by 15, been named poet of the year by Poets Anonymous (probably not a real thing), how to write about "insert diverse background here" in your portfolio and SoPs (again, obscenely white), and so on and so forth.

So where was that information about cats like me that had only recently realized that an MFA was the culmination of things (writing, teaching) that they wanted to be doing? I couldn't find it and it sounds like Draft and other resources aren't being properly used to speak to these individuals, like your friend, because only the cream rises to the top on the internet.

And to hell with the cream: I applied to eight schools, I've been rejected by 3 outright, 1 is an assumed rejection, 3 have decided I was acceptable, and I'm still waiting to hear back from one school. So it can be done if you aren't the creme de la creme of writers on the eastern seaboard. It can be done if you have a BS degree from a BS institution. It can be done if you find yourself in a disadvantaged existence with little to no time to write, little to no money to pay app fees, and little to no aptitude to write, because I have.

And others have, too. You just don't hear about them because they aren't the first to gloat and yell, "Look at me, what I've done, and how great I am!"

We are, however, sitting in a cold, dark room, rocking back and forth, in the fetal position, wondering how long we can "fake it until we make it."

[ficpic89]

Curious — do programs ever reject students for being too good/overqualified?  I know this can be the case if a student is already a published author, but do they ever look at a writing sample and say, "There's no way this student is going to come here — they're going to get into Iowa/Michigan/UVA"?  I've heard of this happening at undergrad institutions when the college can tell that they are clearly a "safety school" for an applicant (and it's known as "yield protection"), but I wonder if it goes on at the graduate level.  (For example, there's a recent posting on the GC results where an applicant mentions getting into some "top-ten" programs but rejected by Rutgers Camden, which further piqued my interest.)

(Not that this is the case with my own rejections, obviously =P but have been wondering about it nonetheless!)

[auroras]

Hey!  So, I didn't mean to suggest that I think the only way to get into these programs is by knowing a well-established writer or being published. Not at all.  My main point was that successful applications seem to have subjected their work to rigorous prior scrutiny, whether it be in a workshop setting, by submitting to publications (getting rejected many times, and being forced to revise in order to get published), or even just working on their own for years.  Or applying for MFAs multiple rounds and having to intensely revise their sample.  I myself have been out of undergrad for seven years and went to a workshop last summer for the first time in about ten years.  It's not like a two-week workshop developed my voice, my ambition, my interests: those had already been churning and stewing for years beforehand.  But the workshop took me out of my own echo chamber, and that was crucial.  Is it true that having a great mentor or having access to great workshops is helpful?  Of course-- which is why we are applying to these MFA programs in the first place, to have access to those great mentors and workshops and time to write.  

In terms of opportunities available for revision:  Draft people have suggested UCLA Extension, which has online courses and scholarships available.  There are also often workshops available in your local city as well as many online workshops.  I live in NYC and there are a wealth of opportunities, like the 92Y, Brooklyn Poets, etc-- many of these also offer scholarships.  I know Brooklyn Poets has online workshops, so those who don't live in NYC could participate.  There are quite a few summer workshops (Bread Loaf, Tin House, Kenyon Review, NY State Summer Writers), some of which don't have much in the way of scholarships.  Not to constantly cite my own experience, but I attended a program which only offered scholarships to matriculated students, which didn't apply to me.  I had to save for about six months beforehand to afford the workshop on my own, but I viewed it as an investment in my future.  My version of going to an unfunded MFA, I guess.   I googled an Iowa poetry acceptee and saw that they had previously crowdfunded their way to a residency.  Everyone has their own path, but I do think that opportunities exist.

My response is not meant *at all* to be comprehensive or cover all the bases-- I recognize the many obstacles that are in the way of especially more marginalized groups.  I hope this a bit helpful, and certainly I think this is one place where the hive mind of Draft might be helpful in suggesting other opportunities.   

[manandcamel]

Re the recent Draft criticism on this thread: while there are criticisms to address, I do not think it's conducive to tear down a group that is many things to many people. A personal experience may be drop-dead awful; the group as a whole is not drop-dead awful. As @aridarisaid, it's a mixed bag of many opinions, backgrounds, skill levels, and voices. It is especially easy on that group to single out voices you do not like because you see their names, faces, and information each time they make a post. It can also be easy to overlook the voices that would be your best allies.

IMO Draft has been an excellent resource for me to connect with current students, keep tabs on my personal applications' timeline, and to give / receive support. It creates a unique environment that allows anyone to say anything about this transition period that everyone is experiencing at the same time. It also creates tensions on different levels, which will happen on a forum - especially one that literally shows where each poster is coming from and where their interests and privileges lie. 

I agree with @auroras's POV that the "star" Draft posters are the ones who polished their work until it shined. Some of them did so through Draft. @tonydoesmovie and @Three21, I know at least one of them has never sat through a workshop before. I think it's a bit false to predict (and criticize) that an applicant has "edited too much." That reads almost as if these (obviously talented) writers are putting on a facade they won't keep up. 

TL;DR: YMMV. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Edited March 15, 2017 by manandcamel

[manandcamel]

@Three21 it's not been completely positive, actually! I think Draft can be stressful, circular, and exhausting. However, I see it for what it is. Draft is just a resource for people to use, or not. YMMV. Other members can / have received an enormous amount of support and advice they may not get elsewhere. I don't have friends or family who get the MFA struggle, and I was grateful to find not one but two places that get it.

My issue with the recent Draft criticism is not that it's occurring, but that it's portraying a multi-faceted group as a flatly negative, unhelpful, and even harmful space.

[Elliephant3]

Does anyone know anything about fiction at UW (Seattle) or Notre Dame?  

[Scheherazade]

I initially set out to respond to posts individually, but I would probably end up writing a novel (perhaps my sample for next year?). Others have brought up a lot of salient points, about which I had some general thoughts.

Like most people, I'm not airing my grievances about the group to demonize it. Draft's intention is admirable: gathering candid information about a process that suffers from obfuscation. Likewise, I don't doubt the good intentions of most members, both vets and applicants alike.

Its problems lie with its medium, and I'm sorry for getting all Marshall McLuhan on everyone, but it's impossible to separate the medium from the message. My issues with Draft are thus issues with social media writ large. Although I gleaned some helpful information in the beginning (and appreciated the clever memes posted by one member), as I spent more time in the group, I found that the loudest voices drowned out the others. And the loudest voices on social media tend to belong to heavy users who are thereby prone to its faults: humblebrags, over-shares, echo chambers, armchair activism. As someone who is reticent to broadcast the intimate details of my life to strangers (or even friends) on social media, I have little tolerance for these sorts of posts in my newsfeed. At the same time, I acknowledge that I'm a bit of a curmudgeon, and I understand that social media is addictive. In large part, the reason I avoid these behaviors is the reason many people engage in them: I don't want to crave the dopamine released when I post about an accomplishment or express my political views to my similarly progressive network.

On the subject of community, it is natural for likeminded individuals involved in the same processes to gravitate towards similar ideas and habits. As a result, however, I suspect users are prone to groupthink and consequently fallacious reasoning. Here are a few examples I observed:

1. Appeals to authority ("I went to one program, so I can speak definitively about the hundreds of other programs.")

2. False dilemmas ("Either the process is completely random or objective. And because we know admissions officers aren't just throwing darts to select applicants, we can conclude that there is no chance involved.")

3. Slippery slopes ("If you pay anything for an MFA, you'll end up with a useless degree and oppressive amounts of debt that will haunt you for the rest of your life, and then you'll never be a successful writer.")

4. Faulty generalizations ("My friend got into five top programs with a horrible GPA and GRE scores, so you shouldn't worry about these aspects at all.")

I'm simplifying these arguments to highlight their faults, but some of them are pretty close to actual posts. Again, these sorts of arguments tend to arise from good intentions, such as deterring applicants from taking on substantial debt or encouraging them to devote more attention to the writing sample than to other aspects of the application. But they lack nuance, and I usually encountered opposition or hostility when trying to point out the faults and gray areas of these sorts of posts. Ultimately, I realized the futility of all this and ended up leaving. This comic sums it up pretty well:

I guess in the end I never felt like a part of the group, despite my best efforts to empathize and interact with other members. And it made me question whether the MFA community was right for me. Nevertheless, I'm trying to keep things in perspective by reminding myself that a few voices on a Facebook group are not indicative of all MFA students.

[romola]

I'm not on Draft, so I can't contribute to that discussion, but I have a somewhat related question: Are any of you planning to pay for your MFA? If so, what has your decision process been like?

I applied to a mix of funded and unfunded programs, and so far I have been accepted only to programs that charge tuition (full-res and low-res). I don't make much money, but thanks to some savings I won't have to incur debt for the degree. I'm not super young, and I don't intend to go through the application cycle again. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by romola

[tonydoesmovie]

2 minutes ago, romola said:

I'm not on Draft, so I can't contribute to that discussion, but I have a somewhat related question: Are any of you planning to pay for your MFA? If so, what has your decision process been like?

I applied to a mix of funded and unfunded programs, and so far I have been accepted only to programs that charge tuition (full-res and low-res). I don't make much money, but thanks to some savings I won't have to incur debt for the degree. I'm not super young, and I don't intend to go through the application cycle again. 

I am planning to pay as well. I was in a similar boat as well of applying to a few funded programs and a few unfunded. I've only been accepted into full-res programs without funding. I'm hoping to secure a few scholarship offers from the schools as well as tuition remission opportunities from TA and/or GA-ships. Also, I will look to applying the hell out of external scholarship opportunities. Outside of that, I will be dependent upon financial aid - I'm 26 with just under $15k debt from undergrad.

[romola]

Thanks, @tonydoesmovie, and that sounds like a great plan. Unfortunately I haven't been selected for any TA or GAships, so I'd be paying tuition for sure. On the plus side, I'd be able to keep up my freelance editing work for a few hours a week, which would help cover my living expenses. 

[oc.bmjc]

@romola I can't speak from direct experience, but I can give you my perspective. 

I went to a commuter state school before state schools became expensive. I was lucky enough to come out debt free* having worked during undergrad to pay for tuition/ living expenses. At times it really sucked, but it wasn't actually the worst thing in the world or unmanageable, it was perfectly livable. Regardless, working to reduce my debt in school didn't hinder me in the way many imagine working during school would. I think a grad program would be different given some structural considerations of the institution, where you are in life, and your writing goals. 

Since undergrad, I've been working for the past 6 years saving for eventual grad school &/or not working to focus on my writing. I am willing to pay for school if I feel it's the place for me. It was not easy to save nor was it easy creating the circumstance where saving worked out for me, but I am blessed to have the finances to expand my options. I do have many writer friends who are in and out of school at the moment. Some have taken on some debt and no debt while some went into grad programs with some to no debt. They all have varying opinions.  I do notice many have hada hard time conceiving of the type of lifestyle they will be living after grad school, thus making some of them feel unprepared to assume the debt regardless of the amount.

The way I see it is that there are very different practical implications for being in 12K in debt versus 90K in debt. One is theoretically livable on a meager income assuming you don't have many other bills, and the other would require you to have stability and a job that guarantees that financial debt to decrease over a long period time- thus 90k in debt would have a much greater impact on your lifestyle after school for much longer. So, really you have to try and ask yourself what type of work and freedom you'd want in and after grad school. 

If you know that you are going to advance your writing after grad school in a isolate manner by creating more time and space for yourself you won't likely be making a lot of money. So in this instance, it would be a goal to minimize the debt to none. However, I don't think taking on, what could only be say..., 12k in debt for the first year of a program is as hellish as people make it out to be. The "fully funded only" rhetoric perpetuates fiscal irresponsibility/ignorance in my opinion, and limits the education/realities of it's intended audience, kind of like preaching abstinence as an effective form of preventing pregnancy and STDS. There's only so many spots that are fully funded, but there are a lot of smart ways to minimize debt in a responsible manner that can actually maximize the graduate and post graduate experience.

But, if it's important to you to come out debt free, then don't feel pressured to temper that feeling.  Say you are in position where you're looking at a debt much larger than 12k or even 20k. It would be equally reasonable and healthy to evaluate and question whether or not the program gives you easy access to work /instruction opportunities, scholarships,  flexible class times, and ultimately the experience you want. If these things don't add up, or you don't feel confident about it. Its totally okay and may be better to put it off another year, save more money (if you can) and shoot for a program you are equally excited about with better financial prospects (that could be only taking on 6k overall in debt versus the previous year's 90k).

In the event you think the school is worth it, and you are willing to pay for the total cost, I would advise you have an honest conversation with yourself about how you can maximize your experience in school towards the future you want, with a financial landscape in mind. In this scenario, I would hope that you make the absolute best of your time in school while holding yourself accountable to the serious nature of the resources you are investing.

Either way you can swing it. People have done it before in undergrad and in grad school. It's pretty unfair that we have to pay for school, but I think there's this assumption that being in school is the hard reality, when it's actually life after school that's a pain in the ass. So think about the reality of your future and what you can manage mentally and fiscally. There are school debt calculators that could help you visualize your future payments and how manageable / unmanageable they'd be.

Other considerations you might want to think about on a personal scale future:
- Do you plan on getting married or having kids
- Do you want to buy a house
- Will you have to pay for your own health care
- Do you already have debt

All of these considerations should only help to guide you towards an opportunity that you feel comfortable and happy taking. 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by oc.bmjc

[romola]

1 hour ago, oc.bmjc said:

In the event you think the school is worth it, and you are willing to pay for the total cost, I would advise you have an honest conversation with yourself about how you can maximize your experience in school towards the future you want, with a financial landscape in mind. In this scenario, I would hope that you make the absolute best of your time in school while holding yourself accountable to the serious nature of the resources you are investing.

Thank you @oc.bmjc for the thorough and thoughtful reply. I'm fortunate in that I wouldn't have to take out loans, but I love your point above. If I'm going to do this, I fully intend to learn and experience as much as I can. I haven't thought much (enough?) about the post-school financial landscape, but I'm glad you've encouraged me to. 

Edited March 15, 2017 by romola

[romola]

1 hour ago, Three21 said:

Additionally, most of the fully-funded programs are teacher-track where you're being employed by the university for 15k a year. That's not a livable salary, so you'd likely have to pick up an additional part-time job. That severely cuts into your space and time to write, which is ultimately why you're doing this, right?

Thank you, @Three21. Even as I've applied to fully funded programs, I have wondered about how many hours would be spent teaching and what type of hourly rate that becomes.

I make a decent hourly wage right now as a freelance editor, so it would be hard (from a practical standpoint) to give that up for a teaching position that took up a great deal of writing/learning time and paid little, much as I'd love the experience.  

Edited March 15, 2017 by romola

[aridari]

Hi all. Here's my two cents on unfunded programs, based on my personal experience. 

I graduated last year from an unfunded MA program at a prestigious university. To say I have come out of the program extremely unsatisfied with the entire experience would be an understatement. It's more that I regret it, honestly.

In my department, the difference in quality of education, interaction with faculty, resources, and basically everything you can think of was laughably and noticeably huge between the PhD students and MA students. We weren't allowed to take certain courses. We had limited access to the department library. We had very little time with faculty. Almost no one was there to help us with our theses. We had only one advisor taking care of MA things. The PhD students, on the other hand, had no such restrictions, and had access to time and resources and people without question.

I took classes at that university's mfa program, and found that some of the students there were not happy with their own situations as unfunded students. The debt is substantial, there's competition and some resentment between the funded and unfunded students. This is a program many people want to attend. I also found that this disparity in education and care was not unique to my department or to the mfa program. This was a very wide issue in a variety of different departments at the university I attended. 

This is not to glorify the PhD students. They had their own issues, and very big ones at that. But when it comes to money, and whether or not you're funded, I have found that it almost directly correlates to the quality of education you get. You'd think it would be the opposite, considering how much higher education is.

This is not an authoritative post. I am not going to tell you not to attend an unfunded program based on what I say. I don't know what the unfunded mfas are like, and if they are worth the money, since I did not attend one; many factors like faculty and time and such should go into that decision. But the disparity in money in my program translated into a difference in care, in quality of instruction, and it gave me massive stress and insecurity. I am not proud of my debt, even if people are impressed with my degree. In my opinion, funding does unfortunately go hand in hand to how much the department and it's faculty will care about you, and therefore how much you will learn. 

I got into the new school mfa my first round with a personal email and a somewhat nice scholarship. But I was unwilling to chance a similar experience I had in my MA, and I found no guarantees the debt was worth it for me.

I hope this was useful to you all. And of course, this is my experience and what I have learned from it. Take it, if you'd like. And good luck to us all, for the rest of this season.

Edited March 15, 2017 by aridari

[oc.bmjc]

@romola Yes. I think many individuals in your position would look at how their time is spent (instead of their dollars) and whether or not their energy and emotional resources are being applied correctly to maximize their writing goals, growth etc.

Which you know, as technical "artists" - I think we can break ourselves from this strict image of needing to be like a Super Adult/ Super artist who gets the best deal for their passion. We shouldn't lust after seeming smart about our finances because it's tied to some naive idea about what being a writer really means. We should seem smart because we are smart and put in the personal work of what is financially responsible for each of us.  

For some people, I know going to a program at some point is really important, and some have turned away a program for fear of the financial future and feeling like they'll have to "sell - out."  To me, it's not worth future tripping about hypothetical scenarios either, especially when you could be spending the time applying yourself practically and thinking about probable future scenarios. It's just good practice to make sure you are aware of the choices you are making and you feel connected to them. 

If someone wanted to take on 100k in debt and felt so compelled because they might feel irreparable over the regret for not, then like hell ya why not? It's not the most sound decision in a vacuum of course, but I'd rather see someone feeling like they did the best they could with what they got and knew about themselves, rather than following some ubiquitous unattainable ideal financial situation that other's have expressed they wished they had without any real reasons or understanding to back it. I try not to limit myself if I can, I try to find creative solutions to expand what my circumstance permits me, and I'm not sure the financial standards/ expectations out there are communicating that.

In MFA application and post graduate culture, there are certain ideals for what is desirable financially in program that primarily surfaced from people having no clue what being in debt felt like or what being a career writer felt like or being in debt while being a career writer. These negative sentiments, very rightfully and yet unsurprisingly, cropped up from having to put a dollar sign or value judgment on their graduate experience and the real world implications of their experience. A lot of the arts have been this way too. It's not a super unique experience to writers. 

Applicants struggle to actualize the genetic currency of their prospective educations. We don't like to think about the market prices for X school's resources. But, those financial attachments and judgments matter and are unavoidable, especially because they form our impression of how worth the experience was overall. It can be jarring when students naturally confront experiencing their education through an economic view finder. Cause lets face it, you may not pay anything, but if you don't get any time to really do anything, then you're probably going to feel you didn't get a good deal. You'll encounter that feeling regardless of you having done your best to exorcize that capitalist demon out of your lost Marxian soul. Or conversely, if you are paying a lot of money, but you don't get valuable or meaningful instruction/instructors, you'll feel cheated. In other words, a lot of people do not and will not be able to expect and anticipate the financial and lifestyle realities of said debt, their education, and post grad life and these hard learned epiphanies end up bumming a lot of people's shit. Like we all want the freedom of a car, but then there's the gas and insurance and the tires and the tune up etc. etc. We want and romanticize grad school to be this precious thing, but it is also a financial responsibility too and just acknowledging that in any capacity that's authentic to you is a good start.

 I mean, I don't think most students actually know the amount of money they need to live in order to feel comfortable -not how much money they generally need to get by, because there is a huge difference. It's no wonder a lot of people spend a lot of time working really awful jobs, some actually do because their lifestyle and financial standards require them to be more comfortable, and that is valuable to them. Other people are miserable and would rather spend their time not making money, just to feel comfortable. Some of us don't have options or preferences because other depend on us. Some people might need loans in order to work in order to support their kid during program if they don't get tuition remissions, some people might not take loans to work for tuition so they don't have to go into debt because they have kids. I mean, no two people are a like and no two programs or offers are alike either. 

Like, if you can live three months with a budge of less than 1,500 or whatever the realistic cost of being responsible and spending your time wisely in program, then you don't have to think to much about the whole ordeal and can adjust accordingly. But if that situation is not copacetic then....you know...hey maybe this isn't the right path for you yet or you need to take out a small loan 7 or 5K so you aren't miserable, can eat and have the emotional space to enjoy your program.You know, it's important  that you feel like a person, your own person, which I think people forget or unnecessarily force themselves to overlook.

Edited March 16, 2017 by oc.bmjc

[oc.bmjc]

@romola which is to say, if you would like to pursue a teaching opportunity at some point, don't limit yourself unnecessarily. I'm not saying go for it and drop the editing gig, but no one will penalize you for positing and researching the ways you could make it work, if you felt passionate about/ interested in it. I say this because this experience isn't as easy to seek out in the circles not within academia. But these opportunities can be loaded too. Some grads feel disconnected because they are consumed with teaching, some rely on it in order to afford the program and just resent the entire process, while others simply love and enjoy the act of teaching. So definitely be your own advocate for your own interests (financial, creative, personal)and the type of experiences you feel you need to be successful in the program and after w/ or without the time and energy committed to this prospect. Again, if that means putting up a small cost or loan to be able to explore that option over two or three years, it's not impossible that it wouldn't be worth it. It could be the case you wind up having the teaching experience under your belt and on your resume, and it opens up a lot of doors for you or gives you something you really need for your life after school. Sometimes this experience gets writers into more stable financial positions so they can write. But it is equally possible, and maybe even more probable (based off of what I've heard) that this experience could become a crutch and detract from growth during and post grad. I'd definitely encourage you to see how those in your program approach it, what the commitment looks like, and its financial ROI / risks (i guess) as to sum the benefits and practices of the opportunity. If you find that it would provide you with knowledge and skills that are valuable, worthwhile, or even desirable, then yeah maybe consider altering your financial situation (with in reason to your own needs, goals & health) to explore it.

Edited March 16, 2017 by oc.bmjc

[aridari]

@Three21 I made sure to note in my original post that I was in no way equating my MA program experience with an MFA. I know it's different between disciplines, and especially between an arts oriented degree and a terminal academic/professional degree. But my point is this: that school politics are definitely at play when there is funded vs. unfunded positions at a program, and this will be especially evident if it's a large program that has both. When it comes to graduate degrees, there is an unspoken hierarchy that affects quality of education via funding. The funded students (and programs at large) are cared for more. This is a truth amongst many programs that have unfunded or funded students or both.

I should have made this particular (and major) point more clear. And my other point is, don't assume you will get the care and education you are looking for at a unfunded program until you talk to students who have attended (or attend) the program. Get some honest opinions. I mean, this extends to funded programs too (re: doing your research in general), but be especially thorough and cautious when you ask about unfunded. It's your money and debt, and you may not know what the politics and treatment are until you ask and dig deeper. An unfunded program can definitely still be rewarding, don't get me wrong, but make sure you are absolutely sure you will get what you want out of it. 

Also, idk if you read the saywhatmfa tumblr, but I've read posts about unfunded programs on there that somewhat back up what I've stated, even if my program was an MA. Take a read of those re: stony brook Southampton, calarts, Columbia, nyu (I think those are the ones). 

But yes, it's all about finding the right program, and it's not always just funded programs. There are so many different things that go into consideration when choosing a school, and my first and foremost concern is equal treatment of students and equal opportunity/education/educational quality. I hope whatever I've written helps others too, even if it's not 100% relevant to the mfa. 

And thanks for your kind words; it's been hard but I know I did get somewhat smarter afterwards ha. And thanks for the good wishes, lord knows I need it! Hoping the same for you as well.

Edited March 16, 2017 by aridari

[outflare]

14 hours ago, aridari said:

Hi all. Here's my two cents on unfunded programs, based on my personal experience. 

I graduated last year from an unfunded MA program at a prestigious university. To say I have come out of the program extremely unsatisfied with the entire experience would be an understatement. It's more that I regret it, honestly.

In my department, the difference in quality of education, interaction with faculty, resources, and basically everything you can think of was laughably and noticeably huge between the PhD students and MA students. We weren't allowed to take certain courses. We had limited access to the department library. We had very little time with faculty. Almost no one was there to help us with our theses. We had only one advisor taking care of MA things. The PhD students, on the other hand, had no such restrictions, and had access to time and resources and people without question.

I took classes at that university's mfa program, and found that some of the students there were not happy with their own situations as unfunded students. The debt is substantial, there's competition and some resentment between the funded and unfunded students. This is a program many people want to attend. I also found that this disparity in education and care was not unique to my department or to the mfa program. This was a very wide issue in a variety of different departments at the university I attended. 

This is not to glorify the PhD students. They had their own issues, and very big ones at that. But when it comes to money, and whether or not you're funded, I have found that it almost directly correlates to the quality of education you get. You'd think it would be the opposite, considering how much higher education is.

This is not an authoritative post. I am not going to tell you not to attend an unfunded program based on what I say. I don't know what the unfunded mfas are like, and if they are worth the money, since I did not attend one; many factors like faculty and time and such should go into that decision. But the disparity in money in my program translated into a difference in care, in quality of instruction, and it gave me massive stress and insecurity. I am not proud of my debt, even if people are impressed with my degree. In my opinion, funding does unfortunately go hand in hand to how much the department and it's faculty will care about you, and therefore how much you will learn. 

I got into the new school mfa my first round with a personal email and a somewhat nice scholarship. But I was unwilling to chance a similar experience I had in my MA, and I found no guarantees the debt was worth it for me.

I hope this was useful to you all. And of course, this is my experience and what I have learned from it. Take it, if you'd like. And good luck to us all, for the rest of this season.

Now you've gotten my curiosity! You reference prestigious university and the New School in the same post, so I'm assuming you meant Columbia or NYU? 

I have a phone call today with Columbia (I'm assuming it means I'm in), and am waiting to hear back from the New School (as well as Brooklyn College). If you regret Columbia...oh boy, that would be good to know. I know a couple of people that graduated from there, and one of them have had (mostly) positive things to say, and the other is a published author. But that's purely anecdotal, of course.

[Sleam]

Morning folks, I like the thoughtful messages here. I'm still uncertain as to what happens next for me. The fully funded programs rejected me. One with offers of TA etc but no guarantees, in a big city, big school, hasn't responded yet. 

I've been researching other options. I'm really drawn to studying though. I've been in touch with two other colleges. One low res program and no funding at all, but relatively affordable at $32 for a two year program. The other is chatting with me about their full res program. Small school, Small town, small number accepted, some scholarships, $36 tuition and I really like their focus on working as a writer not just teaching. So if they take me, I'd be happy with the debt as I have none. 

Just wanted to give you an update! Oh, and I left Draft today...too much name calling for me. 

[aridari]

Hey @outflare, I'd rather not say what school I discussed in my post. But I did mention the New School because that was a program I got into my first time around. But do take other people's opinions into account too, for any of the funded programs, positive or negative! Especially if they themselves attended the program. I'm glad my post was helpful, or sparked some curiosity.

@Sleam I'm sorry about the rejections, but the one school with the potential TAship sounds like a solid possible choice! Maybe reach back out to them again? And honestly, whether or not the TAship works out or not, I think the fact that you're finding the other programs suited to your needs is really good. You've got choices!

And yeah, Draft was pretty crazy. I'm not gonna lie, I kinda like to read the drama that happens there, but yesterday's was bad. That "good English" thing was pretty damn racist imo.