Fall 2017 MFA

[tallenarts]

On 3/25/2017 at 0:05 AM, sonja johanson said:

Anybody have thoughts about Warren Wilson vs VCFA? They both sound so great, and I think the low res model will be the best thing for me, given life/work/family. Advice most welcome.

 

 

I have a friend who went to Warren Wilson and I live in the Asheville area. He loved it and I'd have applied if it were full-residency. Asheville is an incredible place to live and visit and Warren Wilson's campus is beautiful, relatively rural so it is very quiet and bucolic. 

[Character Zero]

Hi there friends. Does anyone here have particular experience with the M.F.A. program at Indiana University (Bloomington)? 

[SK91]

14 hours ago, manandcamel said:

I just looked up each program without knowing anything about them - from what I saw, I think that UNCG and Old Dominion are the better programs. OD is three years, but it also has lit requirements. UNCG is 2 years, but calls itself a studio program. How do you feel about lit courses? Do any of the OD courses listed interest you? 

 

I don't have any problem with lit courses; not necessarily my strongest area, but certainly something I have both experience and interest in. I just looked at Old Dominion's course catalog (didn't realize course catalogs were publically available, I'm kicking myself right now) and honestly, they seem to have a fairly bog-standard selection of courses. Nothing really stands out. As far as UNCG being a "studio program," they seem to have the same options for lit courses, even if they're not required (presumably, they'd fulfill elective requirements). My goal for the program is to produce publishable fiction, as opposed to entering academia (with copy-editing as my stable career option; I believe all three of the programs I mentioned offer internships/classes for that) so literature and theory courses are not necessarily my highest priority.

Now that I know that looking at their specific course offerings is a possibility, I at least have more options for researching the programs.

[manandcamel]

8 hours ago, SK91 said:

My goal for the program is to produce publishable fiction...

Then I'd go for OD. It gives you three years to write and a secure fellowship. More money, more time.

[manandcamel]

@Character Zero I don't have any direct knowledge of the program but I can talk about the university or the city of Bloomington, if you have questions.

[Character Zero]

@manandcamel I'm familiar with both, but would love to hear any general thoughts you have!

[Scheherazade]

In an unexpected twist, I received an official waitlist email from Boston University. Looks like it's not a secret waitlist after all. I had written off my chances weeks ago when word of their acceptances went out. 

I'm elated but also not sure if I should get my hopes up. It's an odd feeling to be thrust back into the turmoil of MFA admissions two weeks after deciding to move on from it. For now, I plan on adopting the mindset that I won't get off the waitlist but will pleasantly surprised if I do.

For others who have been waitlisted, how have you approached this? Have you reached out to programs affirming your interest? Would there be any benefit in sending additional materials? BU required only two reference letters (but allowed for a third) and recommended (but did not require) the GRE. Since it was my last application, I had already exceeded my application budget, so I did not send my official scores, though I provided unofficial scores. I also submitted only two letters because I didn't want to keep bothering my letter writers. Furthermore, I assumed that my writing sample and SOP would count for 90% of my application, so these minor aspects would have only marginal benefits. In hindsight, I wish I had included these materials, as they were strong, meaning they could have only helped me. They wouldn't have gotten me to the top of the applicant pool, but perhaps they could have given me an edge. Hard to know at this point, though, and I'm guessing there's little use in sending them now. And for all I know, all the applicants who've received offers will accept their spots.

[BananaPancakes]

20 hours ago, outflare said:

Sorry, I've been offline for a while. I got in to both Columbia and the New School. Bottom line, for me:

I'm leaning toward Columbia. I have a few friends that are writers/teachers and they've all pointed me in their direction. I'll quote from an email from someone I respect greatly:

Okay, to your questions. My former students who've enrolled at New School complain about it. This is a few years ago, though, and they are hardly a statistical sample. Columbia is far more prestigious and the truth is you'll get access to teachers there who are major league. The thing is if you go to Columbia don't work with the adjuncts--even though they are famous. Try to work with Sam or Ben Marcus or someone on the permanent faculty. 

That said, Columbia is expensive. I hope they gave you financial aid? If not, that would be the one thing that would make me hesitate. The truth is, though, when you look at who is really succeeding out there--Columbia (or Iowa or Hunter) is often their starting point. It would be wrong of me not to acknowledge that.

And, last night I had dinner with a dear friend who is, to put it mildly, a head honcho in the publishing world. She also invited along a colleague of hers, who is also a head honcho in the publishing world (I will be utilizing these contacts in a couple of years!). Both of them work with major authors, and publish Big Deal Books. And both said to me that I should only consider Columbia if I'm considering schools in New York. One told me that if he gets a phone call about a manuscript from a contact of his at Columbia, he will put it on the top of his pile. I asked him if he would do the same for New School, and he said he never gets calls from there. Again, both of these people work at a big publisher here in NYC. Their words carry a lot of weight with me, since ultimately my goal is to publish a book.

All that said, I made enough money last year that my FAFSA was a nightmare against me. So this fancy degree will put me seriously into debt. But, surprisingly, I'm okay with that.

If I may be a voice of dissent for a second, perhaps also consider this information I've heard from past Columbia students and others in the writing world (and, I'm sorry in advance if it makes you feel less happy about your MFA choices):

Columbia accepts a lot of MFA students, faaar more than most programs. Their acceptance rate is NOT prestigious. Each cohort tends to have its couple of "stars", the Karen Russells or Alexandra Kleemans, who get the funding, the faculty attention, and the spotlight in the publishing industry. Those are the people who are succeeding, whose manuscripts get sent directly to publishers by their professors, who get their first stories in The Paris Review. That is NOT the success story of the majority of the cohort. Columbia faculty isn't sending all 50-100 students' manuscripts to publishers. They only push forward those couple "stars" and everyone else has to figure it out on their own, while some $150,000 in debt (their $$ essentially funding the ride for those select cohort stars).

That amount of debt all but necessitates that the vast majority of Columbia grads (who aren't independently rich) have to put writing dreams on indefinite hold after graduation and instead get a full-time job somewhere just to keep up with student loan payments. 

And, to be frank, Columbia MFA's reputation isn't all that great in the literary world. The numbers they admit + the amount that they charge for the degree is basically a racket, and most people in the literary circles know it. 

You are clearly good enough to have been admitted to these schools, and a third choice aside from attending either the New School or Columbia would be to apply again next year, to more fully-funded programs. There are so many across the country with stellar reputations, faculty attention, connections, and ones that will pay you to go to school there. If you want to stay in the NYC area, Rutgers-Newark is close enough and just started funding all its students with some sizable stipends + full tuition coverage. NYU has some full scholarships, and at least funds all its admitted students 50% (and their tuition is much less than Columbia's). Brooklyn College has a solid reputation for its MFA, and though it has less funding, it also has lower tuition.

New York being New York, all of those major league teachers often pop over to teach a lecture or a class in other schools, too. And just because a professor is major league doesn't mean they are good at teaching, or are willing (and able) to use their connections to further your writing career.

Anyway, sorry if this is harsh, but I had to be the devil's advocate here. Going that much into Columbia-level debt for an MFA isn't worth it. Even if you get published out the gate, advances + sales for most writers won't come close to covering that debt, never mind additional living expenses, etc. Just, consider maybe another application round. I've heard so many success stories of people getting incredible offers their second go-around.

Whatever you decide, good luck!

[manandcamel]

@Character Zero Bloomington is actually a pretty slice of Indiana. It's quirky, fun, and has a good mix of restaurants and bars. It's close to Brown County, which is a beautiful state park. Good for hiking and biking. Rent is more expensive than other parts of Indiana. Hoosiers consider the school to be a party school (beware the little five) but there is a lot of town and gown pride. It's most popular for the Kelley school of business. It pulls good music gigs. The campus is mostly limestone, and has lots of greenery. Get pizza at Mother Bears, curry at Siam. Parking is tight all around. 

[manandcamel]

6 hours ago, Scheherazade said:

In an unexpected twist, I received an official waitlist email from Boston University... For others who have been waitlisted, how have you approached this? Have you reached out to programs affirming your interest? Would there be any benefit in sending additional materials? 

Congrats! At the very least, this is an affirmation that your work is on the right path. Re wait lists, I am on three currently, and just talked to my letter writer / mentor about etiquette. He told me the following: if you reach out (and you should), send a brief, polite email to your contact asking if they have an idea how their cohort is shaping up, and whether or not they think they'll have a need for the wait list. You don't need to state your interest--they know you're still interested because you're emailing them. 

Sending additional materials won't help you. At this point, the faculty / directors / whomever is overseeing the potential cohort has shown interest in you, and an extra this or that won't nudge you into a spot. My letter writer doesn't disclose rank at his program, and chooses people off the wait list based on the hole the declining candidate has just made--he looks at the waitlist candidates' styles, compares them to the confirmed cohort, and makes a decision from the pool based on their written work. That's not the style at every program, but it may give you insight. Trust your sample, and stay in touch with your contact. Good luck!

Edited April 4, 2017 by manandcamel

[StayAbove50]

Hi All,

Can anyone recommend any programs, fully-funded or not, that offer a similar curriculum to Columbia University's program? Obviously, it's no secret that Columbia is extremely expensive. Aside from some of the big name faculty members of whom I'm a huge fan, though, the main draw for me is the curriculum. They offer a wide variety of lectures, seminars, and whatnot on top of the usual workshops--and it would seem that, all told, you spend more time in the classroom than many other programs I've researched. (E.g., at NYU, it looks like you only take 8 credit hours, or two courses per semester, compared to the max of 15-18 you take at Columbia.) On top of that, there's some flexibility to take a few courses outside of the MFA program. Can anyone point me in the direction of programs that offer a similar approach? Thanks!

[Scheherazade]

4 hours ago, manandcamel said:

Congrats! At the very least, this is an affirmation that your work is on the right path. Re wait lists, I am on three currently, and just talked to my letter writer / mentor about etiquette. He told me the following: if you reach out (and you should), send a brief, polite email to your contact asking if they have an idea how their cohort is shaping up, and whether or not they think they'll have a need for the wait list. You don't need to state your interest--they know you're still interested because you're emailing them. 

Sending additional materials won't help you. At this point, the faculty / directors / whomever is overseeing the potential cohort has shown interest in you, and an extra this or that won't nudge you into a spot. My letter writer doesn't disclose rank at his program, and chooses people off the wait list based on the hole the declining candidate has just made--he looks at the waitlist candidates' styles, compares them to the confirmed cohort, and makes a decision from the pool based on their written work. That's not the style at every program, but it may give you insight. Trust your sample, and stay in touch with your contact. Good luck!

Thanks! This is great advice. Good luck to you as well!

9 hours ago, BananaPancakes said:

And, to be frank, Columbia MFA's reputation isn't all that great in the literary world. The numbers they admit + the amount that they charge for the degree is basically a racket, and most people in the literary circles know it. 

I agree with many of your sentiments about Columbia, but I'd argue it still has a solid reputation in the literary world. True, because of its funding situation, many people who have gone through the MFA admissions process recently have a low opinion of the program. But they constitute a small portion of the "literary world." Most people who work at publishing companies or who are hiring writing instructors are not aware that Columbia has a higher acceptance rate and worse funding than, say, Boise State. And I doubt that even people more familiar with the intricacies of the MFA landscape, like literary journal editors, would discriminate against Columbia graduates; the quality of their work is more important. Most resources that I read on MFA programs (like The Atlantic article on MFA programs and the 2008 edition of the Creative Writing MFA Handbook) call Columbia a "top" program, and as long as it continues to produce successful graduates and attract world-class faculty, it will likely remain so. "Top" in this context is about perception, and does not equate to "best." And I would argue that finding the best program for you is more important than finding the most prestigious one.

That said, I did not apply to Columbia, nor would I go even if given the highest funding package. As I've started before, I don't find anything inherently wrong with paying for an MFA degree (depending on your circumstances), but I would not want to go to a program that charges the majority of its students an unjustifiably high tuition rate. I've heard that there are tensions between the tiny portion of students who get fellowships and the rest of the cohort, who receive little to no funding. That would be a deal-breaker for me. I would also not recommend going into six figures of debt for a degree that you are unlikely to monetize in any meaningful sense. Fiction, like many of the arts, suffers from what economists call the Superstar Effect: there's a large disparity between what a handful of prominent figures at the high end earn and what most writers make. Even many successful writers aren't exactly making a killing, so six figures of debt could take a long to pay off on a writer's salary. And if your end goal is to publish a book, there are many ways to do so that are less risky.

Of course, this is just my own opinion. I tend to be cautious about taking risks, and paying the ticket price (or close to it) for Columbia is a risk that I would not be willing to take. For you, it may be worth the gamble.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Scheherazade

[slouching]

Is anyone else waiting on Indiana??

[Three21]

@outflare I don't know. I'm making similar choices (plus a couple waitlists) and have been told again and again that it doesn't matter where you go. Only the work matters. Agents are a dime a dozen, honestly. I've already cycled through one (a good one) without an MFA. Even with financial aid + scholarship, I'm looking at close to six-figure debt for Columbia. That's the kind of debt that haunts you for life. Whereas New School (with scholarships) is totally doable. I feel you: the prestige of the Ivy League name, etc. But in terms of student success rate, it seems like a mere numbers game — admitting so many students inevitably means that they'll have a higher student success rate. That said, I can agree that it might also be important to choose a school that trascends the insular, esoteric MFA world. Sure, Boise State is fully funded, but employers, agents, and book editors don't know this. Or care. What I've realized is that the only people who care where you get your MFA are other MFAers. The rest is noise. You just have to make the best personal choice for yourself in terms of finances, location, and ability to get the work — why you're there — done. It's easy to get caught up in splashy anecdote about big book deals (I have) but what I've honestly decided is: fuck 'em. If you're talented... you're talented. 

[outflare]

@banana_pancakes @Scheherazade @Three21

First, thanks for your comments! I'm taking a lot of info in during this process, considering pros and cons on all arguments. Even though we've never met, your words still carry weight. Truly. I even read your posts to my partner as she helps me through this process.

I can understand a lot of the hesitation about the money. Believe me, it's a major consideration and concern. But at the same time, I'm not worried about my life post-graduate school. I've got a good, solid career right now as a designer, and it's something I love (thought not as much as writing). I fully intend to freelance during my degree period, and when I graduate I know I'll be able to dive back into that world. I have very realistic expectations about life post-graduate school. I don't intend on just getting any job in the literary world to be involved. Frankly, I'd probably make less money than I do as a designer. And, living in NYC, a pay cut isn't that great of an option.

Why go, then? Two simple reasons: to be a better writer (that I believe, for me, can only be accomplished through a graduate program) and to gain contacts, both on the artistic and business side of the industry. This is my first round of applications and I got into my top two programs. Waiting another year, looking elsewhere (I've got a partner to consider), etc doesn't appeal to me. I can understand why a younger person (I'm practically an old fart) would consider those things, but I want to get into it. Sure, the cost is intimidating. But ultimately I want to be in the best program I can be in (for me) and if that means incurring a lot of debt...well, that's something I might take a chance on. Or not! I'll be deciding in the next two weeks. Yikes! Thankfully my partner is exceptionally supportive, and whatever choice I make is good with her.

I will say this world is totally new to me, and I've been surprised at how competitive and catty it can be, even when just considering graduate schools. There seems to be a lot of resentment out there either by rejected, underfunded, or "neglected" (a word that was used by someone I spoke with) people out there. Or people that feel their school was better/worse/just as good as X school. My thought: it's all good. School A not floating your boat? Great! But don't take it down to prop yourself up. Have a bad experience with School B? That sucks. But please don't try and make sure others have one too. School C reject you? Sorry. But don't try and discourage others. Ultimately, it's about finding your path, and if others can't respect that then I would question that person, not your choice.

Sorry, it's just that it's been an eye-opening experience. The design world, at least in my experience, is about collaboration and propping each other up. Really! I'm disappointed in some of what I've encountered, but not all. 

Last bit: I think I'm realizing also that the cohort is crucial, to me. Today I was at New School and met a handful of my (potential) fellow students. I'm excited to meet a larger sampling next week at their admitted students event, as well as the one at Columbia. Who I will be learning with is as important to me as who I will be learning from. If I want my sword sharpened, the stones will be all around me, not just at the front of the classroom.

[Three21]

@outflare Agree with all this. And it looks like we're in a similar spot in terms of established career, so fully funded programs might not make sense. Try to pop back in with your decision after visiting the programs - would love to hear. Ignoring cost, those two programs also majorly differ in curriculum. More studio-style vs academic. So that's something to consider.

[MFA17OrBust]

@sheherazade Thank you for all the insight you've shared. I wanted to let you know I received official rejection from Boston University this morning. I hope you see movement on the wait list soon. Really pulling for you. Good luck!

[aridari]

Just in case any of yall are waiting on U of W Seattle for fiction, I emailed the other day and was told that all initial offers are out, and they're still waiting on responses. There's no official waitlist, but 2 applicants are on an unofficial one. Otherwise, until they confirm their incoming class, no one will be officially rejected. This makes me more than a little mad. But the coordinator was very nice and answered all my questions so I'm not mad at her.

Anyways, congrats to all of you with acceptances and waitlists!

[manandcamel]

@aridari I talked with the admin, too. She mentioned that if you have offers and you want closure / absolutely need to know where you stand before accepting another offer, you can ask and she'll put you in touch with a faculty member, who will then finalize your position. I'm not going to bother with it, though. 

[aridari]

@manandcamel that's good to know, I'm not gonna bother either. I just think it's pretty dumb to make applicants wait this long for a response, especially if it's a pending rejection. Isn't this why there's waitlists? Idk. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by aridari

[Sleam]

I'm still waiting on VCFA. Well, I'm on holiday but keep checking. They're waiting on one of my references still. At least they didn't just say no, right? 

[outflare]

On 4/5/2017 at 10:29 PM, Three21 said:

@outflare Agree with all this. And it looks like we're in a similar spot in terms of established career, so fully funded programs might not make sense. Try to pop back in with your decision after visiting the programs - would love to hear. Ignoring cost, those two programs also majorly differ in curriculum. More studio-style vs academic. So that's something to consider.

I went to the admitted students night on Friday. I have to admit, I was swooning. The other students were fantastic, the professors I met were great, and I got to talk for a while with Gary Shteyngart. In fact, he invited me to sit in on his class (which I am). I know there are haters out there (I just don't get it but it's a fact) but damn if I am not pretty excited at the possibility of going there. Debt be damned.

I'm looking forward to the New Schools event this week. It'll be a smaller cohort, but I'll hopefully get a chance to really get to know the program better. After that, it's decision time. 

[manandcamel]

I know there's a few spots still open on my first choice's wait list. I'm dying to hear anything. Does anyone have advice on how to bear the next few days? 

[mariflower]

Should I be hopeful, or throw the towel in? Do we writers put our eggs in the waiting list basket, or just scream into the void? 

[Sleam]

20 hours ago, manandcamel said:

I know there's a few spots still open on my first choice's wait list. I'm dying to hear anything. Does anyone have advice on how to bear the next few days? 

Call them? Go for a walk? Write it out.