will my petition succeed?

[paulwece]

I did bad in a semester when I was a freshman, due to depression. I have done well since then and is close to graduating, and is currently applying to graduate school I asked the associate dean to retroactively withdraw me from that bad semester. He said it'll be easier for him to do it if I can provide a doctor's note.

I provided the doctor's note in a sealed envelope and made another appointment with the dean. He did not open the envelope, only put it in my file. He said he's stepping down this Friday and he'll have to talk to the new dean about this, and that he'll "do his best."

I asked him why he needs to talk to the new dean, he said he's a lame duck dean and that whatever decision he makes now, he wants to consult with the new dean, because "he'll be responsible for the consequences." But he said he personally wouldn't object to my request. 

We just agreed to follow up in a few days through email.

I feel a little disappointed that he left me sort of hanging. I'm also not happy that I have a new "hurdle" to cross with the new dean. What should I expect?

----------------------

Assuming worst case scenario that the semester was not withdrawn, what can I do to boost my chance at my grad school application? Aside from writing it in my personal statement? The college I'm interested in only requires 3.0 or above for the last 60 hours as minimum requirement, but the department has higher standards and look at all four years. But they do have something called "limited status admission" and that's something I really want to talk to someone down there about. Thanks

[paulwece]

Some insights would be appreciated, thanks

[dr. t]

Unless you're hoping there's a forum member who both has deep knowledge into the inner workings of your departmental power transfer AND can somehow instantly recognize your school from the description above, I'm not entirely sure what sort of insights you expect.

[shinigamiasuka]

The following statements are based on this info:

 

If your cGPA is > 3.5, improve other sections of your application e.g. adding more research experience, apart from a stellar SOP. Your GRE scores are already terrific.

If your cGPA without withdrawing from the said bad semester is < 3.5, then that makes it a little worrisome. 

[paulwece]

My cgpa without withdrawing is 3.4. I also plan to write about it in my SOP, and an advisor who has known me from the start with talk about it in the letter of recommendation. The depression really started in my senior year in high school. I got a 36 on the math portion of the ACT, won first place in an UIUC sponsored physics competition, and got a chance to shake the UIUC dean's hand. I was also one of the top 30 math students from the Chicago area. At the time, UIUC really wanted me, and despite that I did bad in my first semester of senior year, they were willing to wait for my final semester's grade and as long as I showed any improvement, they would take me. The dean had his hand in this, told me "he would take it personally". Unfortunately, my grade only got worse so it was painful that I didn't go to UIUC.

 

And this carried over to my freshman year in college. The first semester I did improve, but still not great. But since then, I did improve dramatically and changed my life around. Can I write this in my SOP? Although it's usually not a good idea to talk about high school achievement, I feel this tells a consistent story, and really tells me who I am and what a comeback I've made. Granted I'm no longer applying as an undergrad, and the dean that knows me is not in charge of graduate admissions, but still...

I started a research based company 2 years ago and has a patent. My first product has gotten pre orders and it won honorable mentions in a invention competition. Can that count as research?

 

PS. The school I want to get into (UIUC) has a "limited status admission" option. I asked them and they said this is for people who don't meet certain requirements, like low GPA, but this is for the department to decide. I can't ask for it in my application. I wonder if going down to UIUC and talking with the department head/dean there about my situation might help me in this regard?

 

Thanks

Edited August 11, 2015 by paulwece

[paulwece]

Unless you're hoping there's a forum member who both has deep knowledge into the inner workings of your departmental power transfer AND can somehow instantly recognize your school from the description above, I'm not entirely sure what sort of insights you expect.

Okay. Thanks for your help. Obviously, not many of us have experience with this, but any thoughts would be appreciated it.

Perhaps I didn't word it well in my original post. The only reason I asked is because I have two fears:

1. The current dean never intended to agree to my request, but is only putting me off because he know he would no longer be the dean. He didn't want to say "no" to my face so he'll just let the new dean do it. Basically lied when he said he'll "do his best" or that he "doesn't object."

2. The current dean wants to help me, but has no more power. The new dean might just say "no" right off the bat.

I asked a friend and he said scenario 1 is unlikely. Scenario 2 is also unlikely unless the new dean is a jerk, and most likely would honor the current dean's recommendation.

I'm asking here to hear more thoughts on this. Obviously, no one can forecast the future, but some thoughts would still be appreciated. For me, this is like the "waiting game" that many of us dread, which is why I asked in this section.

 

Thanks

[shinigamiasuka]

I started a research based company 2 years ago and has a patent. My first product has gotten pre orders and it won honorable mentions in a invention competition. Can that count as research?

 

That's amazing! Makes for a great deal of experience for a recent graduate/current undergrad! Best of luck on the applications!

 

Edit: Since you edited the post and talked a bit more:

 

Can I write this in my SOP? Although it's usually not a good idea to talk about high school achievement, I feel this tells a consistent story, and really tells me who I am and what a comeback I've made. Granted I'm no longer applying as an undergrad, and the dean that knows me is not in charge of graduate admissions, but still...

 

 

Your SOP is your story. 

 

I wonder if going down to UIUC and talking with the department head/dean there about my situation might help me in this regard?

 

 

It's always a good idea to visit if you can as I said in another post. If it makes way for better opportunities/chances, then all the merrier. 

Edited August 11, 2015 by shinigamiasuka

[Vene]

I started a research based company 2 years ago and has a patent. My first product has gotten pre orders and it won honorable mentions in a invention competition. Can that count as research?

Patents absolutely count as research. They're less common for academics than journal articles, but they're still fantastic additions to an application.

[fuzzylogician]

The only reason I asked is because I have two fears:

1. The current dean never intended to agree to my request, but is only putting me off because he know he would no longer be the dean. He didn't want to say "no" to my face so he'll just let the new dean do it. Basically lied when he said he'll "do his best" or that he "doesn't object."

2. The current dean wants to help me, but has no more power. The new dean might just say "no" right off the bat.

 

Fear 1 is highly unlikely. If he was going to say 'no,' he'd just do it. Deans tell people 'no' all the time. 

 

Fear 2 is possible. However, it seems unlikely to me that your petition will be denied since you have a valid case and documentation, and if the current Dean thinks it should be approved there isn't much of a reason to assume the new one won't think the same. That said, I understand it's still anxiety inducing; but I don't think we can help, you'll just have to wait. 

 

 

Other than that: patents count as research, and your experience setting up a company is most definitely relevant. As for your high school experience, I don't know that it's necessary to go into details. You can mention the troubles you've had in college briefly, but it's just not something to concentrate on if the goal is to get into grad school. You have far most interesting recent stuff to discuss. You want to highlight all those positive things you have going for you. I also would not advise going to any department heads or deans right now. You don't know that it's necessary, and firing the big guns before you know it's necessary might end up flagging you as someone who tries to pull strings to get special privileges, even if that's not true. I'd wait and see how this petition works out first.

[Chai_latte]

Thanks for explaining things in the second post.  The patent/research-based company thing is great!  It, in addition to your good grades in other semesters, is gold.  Make that (and how UIUC fits in) the crux of your SOP.  If one of your recs will mention some of your early trouble, let him/her do that heavy lifting for you.  I would only spend ~2-3 sentences mentioning the cruddy semester and then FOCUS on my achievements, what I can bring to the program and how UIUC can enhance my career trajectory.

 

Good luck and great job.  The way I see it, you have a strong shot...even if the withdrawal is not approved.  I think a lot of engineering profs would want a patent-holding, budding entrepreneur in their department.

[Chai_latte]

Oh, are you PhD or MS?

And, I'm assuming your GRE is strong?  If it is, I really wouldn't do anything about the low GPA (e.g. taking extra classes).  Given the health concern and the company, a 3.4 is not the worst...just make sure your GRE is excellent.

[paulwece]

Oh, are you PhD or MS?

And, I'm assuming your GRE is strong?  If it is, I really wouldn't do anything about the low GPA (e.g. taking extra classes).  Given the health concern and the company, a 3.4 is not the worst...just make sure your GRE is excellent.

I'm going for a masters. My GRE is quite strong, 170Q/167V, although my writing is only a 4.0.

[paulwece]

 I also would not advise going to any department heads or deans right now. You don't know that it's necessary, and firing the big guns before you know it's necessary might end up flagging you as someone who tries to pull strings to get special privileges, even if that's not true. I'd wait and see how this petition works out first.

 

I appreciate the advice. I sort of agree with you. I think I will just go down to UIUC in the coming weeks to speak with a graduate advisor, or whatever "advisor" they have in the department and seek some advice or feedback on my application. 

[rising_star]

Plenty of people get into grad school with GPAs of 3.4. I think you'r stressing about this way too much. I also wouldn't make a trip to UIUC specifically to ask the DGS about your application. If you're going to go, then it should be to meet with potential advisors, tour labs/facilities, etc. If all you want to do is ask about your application, pick up the phone or send an email.

[Chai_latte]

I'm going for a masters. My GRE is quite strong, 170Q/167V, although my writing is only a 4.0.

I really think you're going to be fine.  Seriously.

[paulwece]

Thanks for all the help so far

[paulwece]

Well, it doesn't look too well now. On Tuesday I emailed the soon-to-be dean say "hi" and touch base with him on th matter. Did not get a reply. Friday (today) I followed up with the lame duck dean with whom I met on Monday, no reply, and it's been a full day.

I understand they might get a lot of emails, and blah blah blah, but would it kill them to just email me back and give me an update? Even if the decision is no, why would they leave me hanging? It's kinda arrogant and rude, in my opinion. I'm anxiously waiting and this is all I get. BTW, I was respectful and professional in my emails.

[fuzzylogician]

You are over-interpreting things, and you are expecting too much from the administration. 

I understand that you are anxious, but if the old Dean stepped down *today* and the new one is presumably starting on Monday, I don't think it's particularly surprising that no one has followed up with you. The new Dean was not Dean yet on Tuesday and therefore wouldn't have been able to deal with your request. The new Dean stepped down today and was surely busy with other things during the day; not replying to a request within a single day, where the requester already knows that there is nothing you can do about the request, and when this is (as the requester knows) your last day on the job, is not arrogant nor rude. 

You have the right to get a timely response and to follow up with whoever is supposed to take care of your request, if they don't respond in a reasonable amount of time, but you also have to be smart about it. If the new Dean starts on Monday and the old one has already told you he can't help, then there is no point in emailing before Monday. Once the new Dean starts Monday, s/he will have a lot to familiarize him/herself with, and there will be plenty of other petitions and decisions to be made that the previous Dean has left behind. I'm sorry to say, but there are surely going to be other things that are more urgent than your GPA, or petitions that were made before yours. Expecting a response in the first few days, or even week or two, is probably just going to lead to more anxiety and disappointment. While this is important for you, it doesn't seem at all urgent; we are talking about a retroactive change to your GPA, based on already existing documentation, which you are not going to actually need at least until you apply for grad schools, which will be around December-January of next year. Before that becomes urgent, there will be other things that need to be taken care of fast so people can get hired/paid, courses can open in the fall, students can register for the fall, etc. I would say a reasonable time to follow up on this again is roughly the middle of the *second* week of the the Dean on the job, not before, and understand that even then it may take a bit more time. This doesn't mean the petition's chances are any worse -- but if you constantly email and come off as demanding and oblivious, that is not going to do you any favors (however respectful and professional you think you are).  

[Eigen]

You're expecting too fast of replies.

The deans are transitioning, which means they're both busier than normal, and this is one of their busiest times of the year.

[paulwece]

You are over-interpreting things, and you are expecting too much from the administration. 

I understand that you are anxious, but if the old Dean stepped down *today* and the new one is presumably starting on Monday, I don't think it's particularly surprising that no one has followed up with you. The new Dean was not Dean yet on Tuesday and therefore wouldn't have been able to deal with your request. The new Dean stepped down today and was surely busy with other things during the day; not replying to a request within a single day, where the requester already knows that there is nothing you can do about the request, and when this is (as the requester knows) your last day on the job, is not arrogant nor rude. 

You have the right to get a timely response and to follow up with whoever is supposed to take care of your request, if they don't respond in a reasonable amount of time, but you also have to be smart about it. If the new Dean starts on Monday and the old one has already told you he can't help, then there is no point in emailing before Monday. Once the new Dean starts Monday, s/he will have a lot to familiarize him/herself with, and there will be plenty of other petitions and decisions to be made that the previous Dean has left behind. I'm sorry to say, but there are surely going to be other things that are more urgent than your GPA, or petitions that were made before yours. Expecting a response in the first few days, or even week or two, is probably just going to lead to more anxiety and disappointment. While this is important for you, it doesn't seem at all urgent; we are talking about a retroactive change to your GPA, based on already existing documentation, which you are not going to actually need at least until you apply for grad schools, which will be around December-January of next year. Before that becomes urgent, there will be other things that need to be taken care of fast so people can get hired/paid, courses can open in the fall, students can register for the fall, etc. I would say a reasonable time to follow up on this again is roughly the middle of the *second* week of the the Dean on the job, not before, and understand that even then it may take a bit more time. This doesn't mean the petition's chances are any worse -- but if you constantly email and come off as demanding and oblivious, that is not going to do you any favors (however respectful and professional you think you are).  

Thanks. I only emailed each dean once so far, so I did not "constantly" email them or come off as "demanding." I agree that it would not be a good idea to bother them too much.

You are right that I'm anxious, but that's not all. You see, I'm applying for Spring (start grad school) of next year and the deadline is this coming Sept, literally weeks from now. For one school, the deadline is 9/1 so I got 2 weeks. I asked the registrar and they said they can change the grades right away once the dean agrees, so now it's all up to the dean now.

As you can see, I have an urgent case here. I'm thinking about visiting the dean's office in person next week (maybe Tue or Wed). Given my situation, what do you of think? 

Edited August 15, 2015 by paulwece

[TakeruK]

Can you ask other students you know about the best way to contact the deans in your school? It can vary from place to place. At my school, you need to be fairly persistent and coming into the Dean's office in person is a good idea (if they are busy at the time, you can schedule an appointment with the admin assistant right there). Emailing the Dean is rarely a good idea--this person is far too busy to schedule things. You could try to find their admin assistant's contact info and email that person to set up an appointment but it's much easier to phone or better yet, come in person. When you talk to this person, continue being pleasant and respectful and bring up the time sensitive issue.

Also, at my school, there is one Dean of Graduate Studies, but there other Associate Deans for issues like yours. Eventually the Dean will sign off on it, but it's likely someone else in the Office can process the paperwork and grant the approval. This is another reason why it's much better to come to the office in person, talk to the staff there and they will get your sorted out with the right person to talk to and help you get what you need ASAP.

And finally, for non-urgent issues (which is what your issue will appear to be, unless you tell them in the way I suggest above), Dean offices tend to move slowly. I was approved for candidacy by my department in February this year and the only step left was approval/confirmation from the grad office (which is just a check of the department's paperwork). The official advancement to candidacy did not happen until July, 5 months later. 

 

[paulwece]

At my school, the proper way to meet the Dean is through appointment in the main office. If I make an appointment on Monday, the earliest I can see him is maybe later during the week.  However, if I wait in the public wait area, I might be able to catch him going for lunch/drink, etc, and say "hi." This will allow me to talk to him on Monday and touch bases, but I'm afraid this will make me appear stalkerish. What do you think? I don't want to appear pushy, so I'm not sure.

 

[TakeruK]

At my school, the proper way to meet the Dean is through appointment in the main office. If I make an appointment on Monday, the earliest I can see him is maybe later during the week.  However, if I wait in the public wait area, I might be able to catch him going for lunch/drink, etc, and say "hi." This will allow me to talk to him on Monday and touch bases, but I'm afraid this will make me appear stalkerish. What do you think? I don't want to appear pushy, so I'm not sure.

 

In that case, you should go to the main office on Monday and make an appointment to see him ASAP. Later this week is fine. Don't wait for him in the public area like that. It can only make it worse for you because when they are on a break to get a lunch or a drink or go to another meeting, they don't have time to think about your situation.

[rising_star]

paulwece, definitely make an appointment and follow the standard procedure for meeting with a dean. At this point, you need to just stop stressing out about this. It doesn't matter whether you talk to the dean on Aug 17, 26, or Sept 8. If the petition is successful, then the change will happen pretty quickly and, you can always send updated transcripts out after your applications if you need to. The other thing though is that your GPA isn't that bad even with the semester you don't want to count.

[paulwece]

Thanks for the advice guys. I did make an appointment today for later this week.

In the meantime, I have started my online applications and I got a few questions:

1. They ask you if you are applying for masters, or intend to continue to for doctoral degree. Will my answer to this question affect their decision?

2. They ask if you are admitted, do you wish to receive financial aid. Will my answer to this question affect their decision?

They have an "upload credentials here" tab where one gets to upload the transcript. But they also have "additional uploads" under each institution. I wonder if I can upload some scanned versions of awards/certificates I got to the "additional uploads." Although I did mention the awards in my resume and essay, I want to show my letters/awards as well. They are very impressive honors.

Thanks