Three PIs I contacted about graduate school replied that they are unsure or are open to taking a grad student.... should I still apply

[dirkwww]

I have 8 other programs I am interested in but three of my top choices have stated that they were essential unsure, don't know, or there is a potential they would accept. So it is not a no, but it is not a yes. It is really confusing because I don't want to pester them into saying "yes i am taking a student apply". Does anyone have any advice? Should I still apply? Has this happened where someone applied and they accepted them. Would love to hear views.

 

 

[Eigen]

They probably just don't know yet. They might have students that may or may not graduate before then, they might not know if funding is coming through for next year. 

In general, I wouldn't recommend applying to anywhere there aren't at least 3 PIs you could see yourself working with and being happy- less than that, and the chances you don't end up with a good fit are high. 

[EdNeuroGrl]

They probably just don't know yet. They might have students that may or may not graduate before then, they might not know if funding is coming through for next year. 

In general, I wouldn't recommend applying to anywhere there aren't at least 3 PIs you could see yourself working with and being happy- less than that, and the chances you don't end up with a good fit are high. 

However, this depends on your interests. For example, in my area there are really only a few researchers doing the work and they're all pretty much the only ones in their department doing this research. So... if I were to follow the above rule, I'd have no places to apply to. On the other hand, I've talked to all of them about their situation and about their labs. I've gotten 1 maybe response and 1 no response. However I know that both are planning on expanding their labs in the near future so chances are good that they'll take on a grad student or two. The other 2 I have literally had several hour long conversations with and feel great about my prospects on. Nothing is guaranteed but unless I get a no then I am going to apply anyway. 

If I had a bunch (more than the 4 I have) and wasn't sure if I should apply in the first place then maybe I would take a luke warm response as an indication that I should invest my efforts elsewhere.

Keep in mind that a bunch of PI's really feel that responding in an encouraging way might skew their own decision making unfairly against the less social ones who aren't sending emails or reaching out to contact them. *shrug* 

[Eigen]

I would say that you're over-limiting your search for PIs.

You don't need to find someone who does the exact, perfect research you want to do for the rest of your career. In fact, in STEM, that can be a bad thing- it means you're not going to be able to differentiate yourself once on the market and at the same time stay in the field you want.

You want to find someone with a good reputation doing work that you can be interested in, while at the same time learning things you will use in the future. And then you post-doc in another, related lab that lets you build another tangential set of skills.

And then you start your own lab that blends that mesh of skills and expertise into what you ultimately want to do.

[EdNeuroGrl]

Eigen, if you're responding to me.

My PI search considerations: Are they doing research on education AND neuroscience related topics? Does it have anything to do with numerical/spatial thinking OR learning disability? At the moment, it is a small (but growing) field, the vast majority of researchers (who are taking grad students) are looking for students familiar with the challenges and methods they are working with; students who they think will hit the ground running and be productive researchers. Going outside this focus is going to actually reduce my options because my interests will seem unfocused. And from my experience in my master's I am just not up for spending more time spinning my wheels in a department that just doesn't care about the educational neuroscience field. There are only a handful of these in the states, and a few more outside of the country. . Also, all of the programs I am applying to offer very flexible programs that will allow me to explore areas including curriculum development/leadership and policy/neurogenetics/intervention strategies/early childhood education/statistical analysis/neural network learning/etc/etc.

Insofar as my career plan goes, there are TONS of ways I can distinguish myself and generate unique approaches to this field.

I know my specific area is not typical of the majority of grad applicants out there, but my field is not either. I only use my situation as an example of how/why the OP might consider framing the responses they have gotten thus far; that is, if they got a 'maybe' response AND their fit is good, they should probably go ahead and apply.

[Oshawott]

Getting a "yes" doesn't necessarily mean more than getting an "I'm not sure". My undergrad supervisor will always say that she would consider students even if she was unsure just in case an exceptional applicant comes along, she doesn't miss her chance even if her funding is unstable that year. These professors are simply being more forward about the uncertainty of their ability to take on students (which could range from funding issues to limited enrollment and other professors getting priority)

[dancedementia]

Getting a "yes" doesn't necessarily mean more than getting an "I'm not sure".

This is important to remember. There are also cases where a PI says "yes I'll take a student", but then something changes and later in the year (sometimes after you apply), they end up not being able to take anyone after all.

[Eigen]

Eigen, if you're responding to me.

My PI search considerations: Are they doing research on education AND neuroscience related topics? Does it have anything to do with numerical/spatial thinking OR learning disability? At the moment, it is a small (but growing) field, the vast majority of researchers (who are taking grad students) are looking for students familiar with the challenges and methods they are working with; students who they think will hit the ground running and be productive researchers. Going outside this focus is going to actually reduce my options because my interests will seem unfocused. And from my experience in my master's I am just not up for spending more time spinning my wheels in a department that just doesn't care about the educational neuroscience field. There are only a handful of these in the states, and a few more outside of the country. . Also, all of the programs I am applying to offer very flexible programs that will allow me to explore areas including curriculum development/leadership and policy/neurogenetics/intervention strategies/early childhood education/statistical analysis/neural network learning/etc/etc.

Insofar as my career plan goes, there are TONS of ways I can distinguish myself and generate unique approaches to this field.

I know my specific area is not typical of the majority of grad applicants out there, but my field is not either. I only use my situation as an example of how/why the OP might consider framing the responses they have gotten thus far; that is, if they got a 'maybe' response AND their fit is good, they should probably go ahead and apply.

I can think of 2-4 PIs with those overlaps at my school alone, so there would be at least one place you could apply with multiple PIs of interest!

Going to a school with a single PI you could work with is a very high risk move- you may not click with them, something might happen that changes their research direction, they might leave the school- they might have one spot for the year and someone else ends up getting it over you. Grad school is all about learning how to branch out on your own- having mentors is a great guide, but they don't need to support all your needs. You can even design your own committee, with different strengths to learn from. To use the example fields you gave- find someone working in education focusing on learning disabilities, and someone else in neuroscience with a focus on numerical/spatial learning. Get a co-advised situation.

I don't know the specifics of your research or background or career plans.... But I have seen so, so many people fail and drop out of grad school due to narrowly defining interests when they were looking for labs, and ending up trapped with no good options when they were accepted.

[EdNeuroGrl]

I can think of 2-4 PIs with those overlaps at my school alone, so there would be at least one place you could apply with multiple PIs of interest!

Going to a school with a single PI you could work with is a very high risk move- you may not click with them, something might happen that changes their research direction, they might leave the school- they might have one spot for the year and someone else ends up getting it over you. Grad school is all about learning how to branch out on your own- having mentors is a great guide, but they don't need to support all your needs. You can even design your own committee, with different strengths to learn from. To use the example fields you gave- find someone working in education focusing on learning disabilities, and someone else in neuroscience with a focus on numerical/spatial learning. Get a co-advised situation.

I don't know the specifics of your research or background or career plans.... But I have seen so, so many people fail and drop out of grad school due to narrowly defining interests when they were looking for labs, and ending up trapped with no good options when they were accepted.

What school is that?

[Jay's Brain]

From my personal experience, I applied to a school last year and listed 3 PIs in my letter of intent who I would like to work with. Of the 3, the one that aligned with my research interests the most had told me she didn't see herself accepting a student due to lack of funding. I added her name anyway, and had a chance to speak with one of the other PIs I had listed. During our discussion, he realized that my interests aligned more with the PI I had mentioned previously. I guess they talked, and he convinced her to speak to me the next day. We did, and I received an offer for that program under her supervision at the end of it. 

My case may be isolated, but it's never a harm to include people you may be interested in working with. I do agree that you should make sure there's more than one person at the institution so that you know someone there may take you on. Co-supervisory situations may also arise so you never know!

Good luck!

[EdNeuroGrl]

So, I was not really seeking any advice on who I am applying to.

 

I have spent a LOT (about 5 years) of time on this problem and talking with many professionals who study the topic specifically, my biggest weakness according to researchers in the field is that I haven't focused my interests ENOUGH and so won't have as close of an alignment with regards to methodologies. I literally had a researcher tell me he wouldn't consider a grad student application that didn't include at minimum 2 years work in neuroimaging from an educational and developmental perspective (so, incidentally, I'm not applying to his lab). 

I also don't have the money to apply to any more places than I am. I am already quite invested in the specific area of research and expect this to be my career. I feel that given the resources (monetary, time, emotional, social) I have, the discussions I have had with the PI's themselves (funding, methodology, approaches, etc), and the research I've done on the departments and the experiences of their graduate students, that I have struck an acceptable balance. I will ultimately be working with a team of researchers as this is a form of cognitive neuroscience, and regardless of school, I will have an opportunity to diversify or switch focus should I really have the NEED. 

I have considered how broad or narrow a net I plan on casting, and ultimately, I do trust the researchers, post-docs, and graduate students who are actually in the field already (that I have formed relationships with) over an unknown person with unknown background offering anecdotal evidence on a subject I wasn't really asking for anyone's opinion on. 

I would be happy if Eigen would send me a message about the name of his/her college and I can actually see if the situation were applicable to me or not, but I'm not entirely sure how the discussion of the PI's I am applying to work with is germane to the topic of this thread.

I will offer some unsolicited advice now, myself, in general, if your unsolicited advice serves to derail the topic of the thread, perhaps, you should consider the "Underpants Rule" before posting.

The Underpants Rule is simple: everyone is the boss of their own underpants so you get to choose for you and other people get to choose from them and it’s not your job to tell other people what to do. To illustrate, if you’re considering saying something that starts with

• People should
• Everyone ought to
• What people need to do
• We should all
• Nobody should
• You shouldn’t
• blah blah things that have to do with underpants that aren’t yours blah blah

then there is a 99.9% chance that you are about to break The Underpants Rule.

The only exception is ultimately if someone is asking for help or your advice. I am violating my own underpants rule, admittedly, but I feel this an acceptable risk given the situation.

I was really only offering a situation where the original poster might contextualize the situation differently, not asking anyone on here about my own strategies. If I have a question or concern, AND I feel that this forum would be a good place to seek answers, I will ask about it of my own volition.

 

I have 8 other programs I am interested in but three of my top choices have stated that they were essential unsure, don't know, or there is a potential they would accept. So it is not a no, but it is not a yes. It is really confusing because I don't want to pester them into saying "yes i am taking a student apply". Does anyone have any advice? Should I still apply? Has this happened where someone applied and they accepted them. Would love to hear views.

 

 

dirkwww I apologize that my comment has served to derail your question. In retrospect I should have not responded to eigen's second comment.

 

[Gvh]

Just to offer my $0.02 (as I procrastinate writing my SOPs...):

It seems to me that IF you can include 2-3 POIs as part of your application (I like to think of them as "secondary POIs", in addition to the person you really want to work with), then GREAT, because like Eigen noted, it can definitely help your chances if something goes wrong with your top POI (funding, politics, general academia BS, etc), you have a safety net with your other two; thus, your chances of admission to program is less dependent on the judgement and availability and so on of one professor. In the same way, if you did end up working for top choice POI the other two would most likely be on your dissertation committee, like someone pointed out.

BUT I do agree with EdNeuroGrl in that at times there is only one professor in a department that is a decent fit. Sure, there may be others who are related enough to be on your committee, but these aren't professors whose labs you'd necessarily want to join. Last year I applied to a program only having ONE POI indicated on my statement; I was interviewed and it turned out his research ended up going in a direction I wasn't interested in - SO, I didn't end up attending. Sure, it would have been nice if there had been others, but there weren't, and that's how it worked out for me. *shrugs*. This year I am doing my best to find multiple (i.e. 2-3) POIs for each program, but I know there is going to be at least 1 in which I am only really interested in working for one person, simply because everyone's else's lab is too different in some way or another. 

I would also like to add that these questions can be quite field dependent. For instance, wet lab work that involves rotations upon admittance probably likes to see applicants indicate multiple faculty. However, in some non-rotation fields like Psychology, you are admitted to a lab, not a program. This is a quote from a professor at a top California public school that I received yesterday via email:

"[...] If you apply to psych, you will not be accepted to the program, you will only be accepted to a lab. So if you go that route you will have to find a lab accepting students before you apply. Unfortunately they do not make that clear on their webpage."

Something to keep in mind as we talk to one another! =)

Edited October 22, 2015 by Gvh

[Eigen]

I was really only offering a situation where the original poster might contextualize the situation differently, not asking anyone on here about my own strategies. If I have a question or concern, AND I feel that this forum would be a good place to seek answers, I will ask about it of my own volition

Just to be clear, until you responded specifically to me, I was using the example you gave as a counterpoint, since it had been brought up. I'm still not sure why you felt the need to defend your choices or explain them- as you say, you weren't asking for my advice on your situation.  

Discussions evolve over time, based on the participants in those discussions. I would suggest that if you don't want other users to discuss a particular situation you bring up, then it's probably not wise to bring up that situation. 

[rising_star]

This thread is fascinating, especially EdNeuroGirl's defensiveness in a thread that they didn't actually start. So, I'll focus on answering the original question, even though it's just some variation upon all the questions about fit and where to apply which people have been asking in various subforums (see also Anthropology and Literature for recent convos about this). 

If the PI is unsure but you still really want to go there, then apply. My PhD advisor often said he would only take one student a year but, in some years he would take two students and in other years he'd pass on everyone. As an applicant, you would've had no way to predict this. I knew this was the deal when I was applying but applied anyway because I figured that spending ~$100 for the chance to work with this amazing researcher was worth it. It may not be to you and that's fine. There were other schools were the POIs were unsure about accepting students and I decided not to apply after re-evaluating the fit and taking a more mercenary look at my finances.

In fields where admits are into a lab and the lab needs funding, it can be hard to predict if such funding will be available. You might try asking the POIs if they have any major grants pending or checking to see if they've recently received any major grants. Sometimes that can give you a clue on what's up. It could also be that the department/program as a whole is reconsidering how many students they have given the post-graduation employment issues which have been in the news a lot recently. Have you even tried asking the POIs why they're unsure if they'll be taking any new students?

[SocialPsychYear2]

I emailed a PI last year who said she was unsure if she was taking a student. I applied anyway. She didn't end up taking someone, but when they hired new faculty with similar interests to hers they emailed me to see if I was still interested. I was, it was my dream school. So I am with the new PI instead.

so the point is that you never know