PhD going bad.....

[Eigen]

I don't think this has anything to do with a "thick" or "thin" skinned attitude. That's directed at *how* feedback is given, not what feedback is given. You can nicely tell someone they're not cut out for graduate school, or you can do it poorly. 

But telling someone they're not cut out for graduate school is not inherently something that needs to be associated with a climate of "growing a thick skin". 

To be specific, I think there it's rarely (as with anything in life) a complete lack of aptitude, more than a temporal judgement. Saying someone isn't cut out for graduate school in practice means that with their current background, degree of preparation and degree of maturity, they will not be able to meet the requirements for a PhD within a reasonable time-frame. That doesn't mean that person couldn't buckle down, grow up, and come back in a couple of years and do OK- but no one can speak to the future.

In the programs I'm familiar with, at least 1/3rd of an entering cohort really has no business being in a PhD program, and will likely predictably fail out. 

2 hours ago, emmm said:

It is also possible that foreignstudent does not have a very good advisor and should consider looking around for another. Or even that foreignstudent does not have a "bad" advisor, but does not have a good advisor for him. Ideally, if a student is struggling, the advisor would try to provide helpful guidance. The form of this guidance should be tailored to the needs of the particular student. I have rarely found that just being told you're not doing well is sufficient "guidance" and it is not what I would consider advising or mentoring. Your advisor should discuss your potential research with you in a way that makes the exchange of ideas feel safe. As a new student, you will probably come up with some awful plans that may, however, contain a kernel of a useful idea. Your advisor should help you learn how to distinguish between ideas worth pursuing and those that for whatever reason wouldn't work, and then help you form a plan going forwards. If you enter a program with a lot of research experience already, you are more equipped to do much of this on your own. If you are new to research, it is not something you necessarily just know how to do. I also think the tone of this thread has been too negative toward foreignstudent, and I hope there is someone within his program he can go to for advice and assistance. And I do think that  switching to a new advisor with a different "management style" should be a serious consideration -- if the current pairing is not working well, switching sooner rather than later can save everyone a lot of grief. 

In my opinion, this means someone is not prepared for graduate school. Not having sufficient background isn't something an advisor should *have* to work with. They can spend the extra time, but it's not part of their job description. Undergraduate and MS programs exist to get people familiar with research so that they can start on a PhD program.

There have been some really interesting articles on the continuing infantalization of college students, and I'm seeing that start to extend to graduate programs. 

As TakeruK frequently points out, there's no excuse for treating people poorly- but that does not extend to allowing people to slip by with lower and lower standards, or not hold them accountable for their progress. Graduate school is supposed to be about preparing you to be an individual, independent scientist (researcher). It does not have to be a demoralizing, odious experience- but it does not have to be a nurturing, gently supporting environment either. 

In STEM fields, graduate students are paid as researchers to make progress on projects for granting agencies (and advisors) while at the same time learning skills. There is a distinct difference between undergraduate that is based around nurturing and training students, and graduate school that is a time to give talented, prepared students an environment in which they can progress and grow those skills. 

[emmm]

@Eigen I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Especially as research becomes more interdisciplinary, programs are going to keep accepting people with varied backgrounds. Such diversity can contribute positively to any project or program, provided the "outsider" is given the support needed to get to the point where he/she can contribute meaningfully in this new context. Even with background in one subfield, many use grad school as an opportunity to learn new skills -- it IS school, after all -- and even changing between subfields of the same general field can be disorienting and require time to get up and running, The learning process is a lot more effective if it's not expected to be "sink or swim" on your own....

[Eigen]

I changed fields almost entirely from undergrad to my current work. 

Part of being ready for grad school is being able to teach yourself what you need to catch up, not expecting someone else to walk you through it. 

[emmm]

This is a decent summary of what foreignstudent should expect from a faculty mentor.

http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/jrichardson/documents/mentor.htm

If his advisor is not a mentor (either through ignorance or unwillingness), he should find an advisor who will be one. The qualities listed here do not include "will do mentees work for them" (which is another form of very bad mentoring, by the way).

From what foreignstudent described, I think his mentor failed in a number of the areas listed.

[Eigen]

You're conflating mentor with PI. While sometimes they can be the same individual, frequently it is worthwhile to find a mentor that is not your boss. 

Do you also think every boss outside of academia should be a mentor, and if they're not you should quit and find another job?

If not, why should academia be so different? You're being paid, quite well, to deliver results to the granting agencies/schools who are paying you. 

[foreignstudent]

@Monstercookie and @emmm

Thanks for understanding my situation and yes this thread was growing too negative towards me and that is why I stopped visiting this forum. The condescending attitude of some of the users were putting me off and were quite accusative. Its not always the case that the student should be held into account for all the ridiculous expectations of their advisors.

Though nothing has changed that much, I did go and talk to another professor about what I was told by my Advisor. He firstly apologized for what I had to go through and told me that it is not how things are done and no PhD student is expected to publish research papers after research papers right from the first semester. He did tell me to look out for other advisors as the one currently does not seem to have the experience of guiding students,going by the tone of what I had said and experienced. He opined that it takes usually 2 years for a PhD student to start on a research topic as there would be core courses and TA-ing activity which would keep us busy for most of the semester.

Some of the core courses that I am currently  taking do take up a considerable lot of time and I cannot leave it lightly as being a core course, I have to maintain a minimum score to keep my funding. I do agree that nobody is going to spoon feed us though the program, but I feel that as a direct PhD candidate without a Masters degree and with a break in education for about 5 years, one must be given sometime to adjust to the new mode of learning or rather working as some treat PhD like a job. That is what I have read and observed from some of the other PhD students I interacted with.

i don't agree with some of the posts here which seem to favor the 'hit or get out at first aim' policy. Any student who is admitted into an advanced program like a PhD would definitely possess the skills to warrant such an admission. Its the environment and the way we are handled by the academia that makes or breaks us.

 

[GradSchoolTruther]

Why are you telling us a different story than what you're telling the other professor? Seems as if "come up with a research idea" has morphed into publishing multiple papers in your first year. 

Also, sorry you didn't get the affirmation you clearly seem to think you deserve.

Edited March 8, 2016 by GradSchoolTruther

[foreignstudent]

Why are you trying to read between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions about what I have told and what I have not. I don't need your sarcastic sympathies as they matter zilch.

I don't need anybody's approval here not least from Gradschooltruther ( quite a name !!) as to what transpired and what could have happened and how angelic the advisors have been.

I am now working on atleast 2 papers and I don't think I have to be so perfect in phrasing and terminology. It's not like I am presenting a case before any justice committee!!. 

It seems getting a fair unbiased opinion was asking for too much. Pathetic!!!

[Eigen]

4 hours ago, foreignstudent said:

Why are you trying to read between the lines and jumping to your own conclusions about what I have told and what I have not. I don't need your sarcastic sympathies as they matter zilch.

I don't need anybody's approval here not least from Gradschooltruther ( quite a name !!) as to what transpired and what could have happened and how angelic the advisors have been.

I am now working on atleast 2 papers and I don't think I have to be so perfect in phrasing and terminology. It's not like I am presenting a case before any justice committee!!. 

It seems getting a fair unbiased opinion was asking for too much. Pathetic!!!

It doesn't seem like you wanted a fair and unbiased opinion. You got many of those. 

You seem to have wanted an opinion that agreed with the way you view things, which is pretty much the opposite of an unbiased opinion. 

[rising_star]

@foreignstudent, this article on firing one's advisor might be of use to you: https://chroniclevitae.com/news/1321-how-to-fire-your-adviser

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

One thing that I noticed in grad school that has been very annoying is the lack of communication about specific requirements for presentations, posters, papers, etc.

[fuzzylogician]

33 minutes ago, SymmetryOfImperfection said:

One thing that I noticed in grad school that has been very annoying is the lack of communication about specific requirements for presentations, posters, papers, etc.

Could that be because there is more than one possible way of writing a good paper, giving a good presentation, etc? There is no one-size-fits-all pattern that you can just be taught and will always work. You have to experiment and find your own style. What you could (and should) get is feedback at intermediate work stages about whether or not your work is developing in the right direction, whether you are at a stage where you should be thinking about presenting the work and/or writing it up, and (sometimes, depending on the advisor) advice on how to structure the paper/presentation to present your ideas in the most favorable way. You should be able to give practice talks and get feedback from your advisor, other faculty, and peers. You should get comments on paper drafts. But you learn best by doing--even if it leads you down a less direct path to the right outcome--not by being told by others what to do.

[TakeruK]

16 hours ago, fuzzylogician said:

Could that be because there is more than one possible way of writing a good paper, giving a good presentation, etc? There is no one-size-fits-all pattern that you can just be taught and will always work. You have to experiment and find your own style. What you could (and should) get is feedback at intermediate work stages about whether or not your work is developing in the right direction, whether you are at a stage where you should be thinking about presenting the work and/or writing it up, and (sometimes, depending on the advisor) advice on how to structure the paper/presentation to present your ideas in the most favorable way. You should be able to give practice talks and get feedback from your advisor, other faculty, and peers. You should get comments on paper drafts. But you learn best by doing--even if it leads you down a less direct path to the right outcome--not by being told by others what to do.

I just want to second this! I think at the grad school level, we need to move beyond the model of assignments (whether coursework or research assignments) being a list of requirements we have to meet and get evaluated on and instead, to the model where we produce some work, receive feedback, and then improve it.