Venting Thread

[DontGetMeSartred]

I apologize if this is construed as an unnecessarily long tirade, but I feel like I need to put this into words (even if I am just shouting into a void.) 

After graduating from my undergraduate institution, I was hired for an internship with the D.O.E. and thought that maybe it would be a perfect milieu to utilize my science and philosophy knowledge simultaneously (my ingenuous younger self was under the impression that the government bureaucrats would find such interdisciplinary insights valuable!) I discussed some research ideas I had with respect to a given project with my supervisor and explained to her that I was interested in whether or not our definitional biases towards certain scientific phenomena were inadvertently guiding us to exclusive research proposals. I suggested that maybe if we reevaluate the linguistic infrastructure of this particular set of phenomena, maybe we can devise some novel approaches. A few weeks later I was relegated to the center's "dishwasher" (I cleaned beakers, erlenmeyer flasks, and other labware) because my supervisor believed my intellectual abilities were "better suited" to such a task. She told me "scientists are intelligent individuals and when they speak, the words that come out of their mouths are worthy of listening to and considering. I am not confident you are one of those people." 

I ultimately experienced a strange ambivalence, for I knew that if there was even a slight chance that I could grow academically, this was an inimical environment from which I needed to escape, but in order to survive the degradation, it was as if I had to believe that my supervisor's claims were true (therefore satisfying a just-world hypothesis.) I always knew that I wanted to go to graduate school one day, but I figured why wait any longer, what do I have to lose? 

I did not feel as if I belonged among scientists (and I say that not with sententiousness or a sanctimonious tone,) and believed that working with philosophical intellectuals was undoubtedly a prospect that would have a greater potentiality for fostering this sense of "belongingness." But once all of my applications were submitted, I wrestled with the very real possibility that none of those applications would be successful. Although this possibility is by no means an indication that I would be precluded from graduate study forevermore (i.e. there's always next year,) I could not help but feel that such a possibility would leave my existential sense of identity in suspension. Getting rejected seemed to be like an ontological erasure, for I endeavored to go to graduate school because I know I do not belong "here," but failing to earn an acceptance seemed to indicate that I do not belong to the proverbial "there" either, which of course begs the question: where do I belong and who am I, exactly?

I have been fortunate enough to hear positive news this admissions season, which I thought would lay my existential concerns to rest. But now I have been edified of the, what can be considered, elitist and competitive aura associated with academic philosophy (i.e. jobs are scarce, ranking matters, academic pedigrees matter, etc.) and I find it utterly nauseating. I have never believed rankings and pedigrees to be essential characteristics indicative of an individual's worth or potential as an intellectual and yet I have been accosted with equivocating fears as to whether or not these beliefs are nothing more than self-serving biases. I guess what I am trying to say is that I thought the worst part of this entire process would be the possibility for ontological suspension at the hands of indifferent admission committees, but I am finding that the worst part has been coming to terms that I have failed to take Nietzsche's advice seriously. While fighting the monsters (i.e. trying to prove that women can be just as efficacious as men in philosophy, trying to prove that coming from a small school is not an academic death sentence, striving to find a philosophical environment that is collaborative rather than competitive and self-serving, etc.), I have these moments where I feel as if I have become a monster (i.e. I am questioning the extent of my "achievements" with respect to rankings and pedigrees, which seems unquestionably inauthentic of me.) 

I went into this believing Heraclitus' underlying philosophy: that by simply reading the riddles, we all assume the role as philosopher. I went into this wanting to study philosophy for the sake of studying philosophy, not as a means, but as a deeply respected end. I went into this believing we all deserve a place at the "philosophical table" for no other reason than we wish to be there (I understand this is a rather utopian, idyllic thought, but once again, I just have a lot of feelings.) And now, here I am, confounded by these facets of the academic world that seem incompatible with those preliminary insights. I feel disillusioned. Has anyone else been navigating through similar ambivalences or am I just being ridiculous? 

[bechkafish]

@DontGetMeSartred, I don't think you're being ridiculous at all. I had a similar existential jolt going into masters work - it was my first experience being surrounded by actual "career philosophers" (my undergrad - which employed a grand total of three philosophy faculty, all many years tenured - was so unnotable as to be completely insulated from this). I suppose I was expecting some level of camaraderie and emotional honesty that I just didn't and still haven't found. People are competitive; people are obsessed with pedigree; people are largely unwelcoming / discouraging in this field, or at least in this department, because every person who makes it to the finish line is another person with whom to compete in an already overwhelmed job market. I don't think you're at all overreacting by calling the "elitst and competitive aura" nasueating. It really is. Once the shine wears off, academic philosophy is as self-aggrandizing and nasty as I think any discipline has the right to be.

[P.S.: Okay, I realize this sounds a bit like bitternress re: my season going so poorly, and maybe it is a bit, but these feelings long predate this application round. I've felt a [much less well articulated] version of what you describe for the past several years.]

Edited February 27, 2016 by bechkafish

[bechkafish]

Also, in unrelated news, it's 3:30pm here and all I've put in my body today is two cups of coffee, two cigarettes, and an entire box of peanut butter Girl Scout cookies. Grief-eating, man, it's real.

[MVSCZAR]

5 minutes ago, bechkafish said:

Also, in unrelated news, it's 3:30pm here and all I've put in my body today is two cups of coffee, two cigarettes, and an entire box of peanut butter Girl Scout cookies. Grief-eating, man, it's real.

Why have we never met? Sounds like me daily. 

[bechkafish]

1 minute ago, MVSCZAR said:

Why have we never met? Sounds like me daily. 

Long lost twins, possibly?

[502845824]

Has anyone else become increasingly afraid of talking about philosophy with professors during this whole process? Now that my professors and letter writers know that I've been accepted to Yale and Pitt, I have this weird feeling that I'm supposed to speak in either cryptic aphorisms or pithy, profound nuggets of wisdom. So I've just stopped talking about philosophy out of a fear of letting the cat (AKA my true stupidity) out of the bag.

[jjb919]

1 minute ago, oldhatnewtricks said:

Has anyone else become increasingly afraid of talking about philosophy with professors during this whole process? Now that my professors and letter writers know that I've been accepted to Yale and Pitt, I have this weird feeling that I'm supposed to speak in either cryptic aphorisms or pithy, profound nuggets of wisdom. So I've just stopped talking about philosophy out of a fear of letting the cat (AKA my true stupidity) out of the bag.

Yes! I generally have a hard time talking philosophy with philosophers. I work at a non-profit that interacts regularly with academics, and I always feel more comfortable and confident talking philosophy with non-philosophers. I always clam up around philosophers because I have a constant nagging feeling that I'm being judged or they're just waiting for me to slip up and point out how stupid I am.

[502845824]

1 minute ago, jjb919 said:

Yes! I generally have a hard time talking philosophy with philosophers. I work at a non-profit that interacts regularly with academics, and I always feel more comfortable and confident talking philosophy with non-philosophers. I always clam up around philosophers because I have a constant nagging feeling that I'm being judged or they're just waiting for me to slip up and point out how stupid I am.

True 'dat. I hate that feeling. I hope it goes away someday...

[jjb919]

2 minutes ago, oldhatnewtricks said:

True 'dat. I hate that feeling. I hope it goes away someday...

I spoke to a philosophy professor recently who said that feeling didn't go away until she got tenure. On the one hand that's terrifying, but on the other hand it's comforting to know that philosophers with PhDs and tenure-track jobs have the same insecurities we do.

[MVSCZAR]

12 minutes ago, oldhatnewtricks said:

Has anyone else become increasingly afraid of talking about philosophy with professors during this whole process? Now that my professors and letter writers know that I've been accepted to Yale and Pitt, I have this weird feeling that I'm supposed to speak in either cryptic aphorisms or pithy, profound nuggets of wisdom. So I've just stopped talking about philosophy out of a fear of letting the cat (AKA my true stupidity) out of the bag.

Yes, but I'm also having the opposite response realizing that, since there are at least a few people in the world who think I'm worthy of pursuing a PhD, philosophy PhDs aren't really all that. It's more like, "I'm on to you. You're probably just like me." And then I remember that the difficult part is just beginning and I slide back into my shell of insecurity. 

[502845824]

21 minutes ago, MVSCZAR said:

Yes, but I'm also having the opposite response realizing that, since there are at least a few people in the world who think I'm worthy of pursuing a PhD, philosophy PhDs aren't really all that. It's more like, "I'm on to you. You're probably just like me." And then I remember that the difficult part is just beginning and I slide back into my shell of insecurity. 

Yeah, ive totally felt that too!!! Like "Jesus Christ, you let THIS dumbass in *points to self*?!?! I thought you folks were supposed to be smart!"

But on a related note, I'm so anxious about campus visits. I just know I'm going to get to Pittsburgh, where they'll revoke my offer after I prove, conclusively, that I am an asshatted fuckwit.

Edited February 27, 2016 by oldhatnewtricks

[Disgruntledlurker]

5 hours ago, psm1580b said:

Holy shit. The silencing never ceases

This is fucking irritating. What school was it?

I would say, but I'm worried that the story about the two male students would make it too easy for someone to figure out who exactly I am, and since I'm likely going to that school anyway, that could make things awkward. And God forbid those men would have to feel awkward.

[MVSCZAR]

14 minutes ago, Disgruntledlurker said:

I would say, but I'm worried that the story about the two male students would make it too easy for someone to figure out who exactly I am, and since I'm likely going to that school anyway, that could make things awkward. And God forbid those men would have to feel awkward.

Send them to me. I'll fight em!

[psm1580b]

56 minutes ago, Disgruntledlurker said:

I would say, but I'm worried that the story about the two male students would make it too easy for someone to figure out who exactly I am, and since I'm likely going to that school anyway, that could make things awkward. And God forbid those men would have to feel awkward.

Everything about that makes me mad. 

[Siegfried42]

@DontGetMeSartred @bechkafish It sounds like I may be in for an unpleasant surprise going into my grad program. Having for long been surrounded by students who had very little interest in philosophy I was kind of hoping for a more congenial atmosphere - among others with a similar passion for philosophy. I didn't realize the competitiveness would be so strong/negative even within one's own department. On the other hand, I presume the same observations about the unpleasant importance of pedigree, rankings, and so forth would hold true for most humanities departments if not for academia in general. 

On a brighter note, @bechkafish I noticed you updated your signature: glad to meet another philosopher-pianist!  

Edited February 27, 2016 by Siegfried42

[Schwarzwald]

Just sending out apologies on behalf of Tennessee and the male gender. I wish I could say we're trying to get better as a unit, but meh, IDK.

[bechkafish]

57 minutes ago, Siegfried42 said:

@DontGetMeSartred @bechkafish It sounds like I may be in for an unpleasant surprise going into my grad program. Having for long been surrounded by students who had very little interest in philosophy I was kind of hoping for a more congenial atmosphere - among others with a similar passion for philosophy. I didn't realize the competitiveness would be so strong/negative even within one's own department. On the other hand, I presume the same observations about the unpleasant importance of pedigree, rankings, and so forth would hold true for most humanities departments if not for academia in general. 

On a brighter note, @bechkafish I noticed you updated your signature: glad to meet another philosopher-pianist!  

I hope your experience will be brighter and all-around more welcoming. I definitely don't think that this is a necessary quality of philosophy graduate programs - I'm sure there are plenty of truly supportive places out there with plenty of truly supportive people, and I hope you land at such a place. If I land at a nearby-enough place, we'll philosopher-pianist it up and learn some duets.  I have the music for a really great version of Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 for two pianos.

[philstudent1991]

4 hours ago, Siegfried42 said:

@DontGetMeSartred @bechkafish It sounds like I may be in for an unpleasant surprise going into my grad program. Having for long been surrounded by students who had very little interest in philosophy I was kind of hoping for a more congenial atmosphere - among others with a similar passion for philosophy. I didn't realize the competitiveness would be so strong/negative even within one's own department. On the other hand, I presume the same observations about the unpleasant importance of pedigree, rankings, and so forth would hold true for most humanities departments if not for academia in general. 

On a brighter note, @bechkafish I noticed you updated your signature: glad to meet another philosopher-pianist!  

FWIW, my department is not like the horrible one the earlier comment described. And I'm sure plenty of departments are like mine

[Siegfried42]

3 hours ago, bechkafish said:

I hope your experience will be brighter and all-around more welcoming. I definitely don't think that this is a necessary quality of philosophy graduate programs - I'm sure there are plenty of truly supportive places out there with plenty of truly supportive people, and I hope you land at such a place. If I land at a nearby-enough place, we'll philosopher-pianist it up and learn some duets.  I have the music for a really great version of Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 for two pianos.

Thanks! And - I'm in  I think I have the same music for the Rhapsody and it's great!

19 minutes ago, philstudent1991 said:

FWIW, my department is not like the horrible one the earlier comment described. And I'm sure plenty of departments are like mine

I'm glad to hear!

[oldmanPhDStudent]

On February 26, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Abendstern said:

I woke up to an email this morning entitled "Graduate Admissions and Funding 2016-17 Application..."

..."Survey"

That was a dirty trick Oxford. You can bet my reaction will be included on that survey!

This is precisely what happened to me! I did have a chance to visit the Oxford admissions building in Oxford last summer, though, so I was pleased to evaluate their very helpful advice! However, yes, not fun to tease us.

[maxhgns]

On 2/27/2016 at 6:50 PM, Siegfried42 said:

@DontGetMeSartred @bechkafish It sounds like I may be in for an unpleasant surprise going into my grad program. Having for long been surrounded by students who had very little interest in philosophy I was kind of hoping for a more congenial atmosphere - among others with a similar passion for philosophy. I didn't realize the competitiveness would be so strong/negative even within one's own department. On the other hand, I presume the same observations about the unpleasant importance of pedigree, rankings, and so forth would hold true for most humanities departments if not for academia in general. 

Well, have you been paying attention to what's happened to Boulder in the last couple years? It's not really surprising that it's like that... (unfortunately).

 

I hope you and your cohort will work to change the atmosphere. It can feel like a losing battle, but if you keep at it you'll build up critical mass after a few years of new cohorts.

[502845824]

I propose a new application status category: Purgatory, for after acceptances, waitlists, and rejections have gone out, and you've yet to be notified...... ????

Edited February 29, 2016 by oldhatnewtricks

[dgswaim]

7 minutes ago, oldhatnewtricks said:

I propose a new application status category: Purgatory Hell, for after acceptances, waitlists, and rejections have gone out, and you've yet to be notified...... ????

ftfy.

[502845824]

3 minutes ago, dgswaim said:

ftfy.

Thanks! I had missed that ?

[dgswaim]

Pretty much sums up this whole process...